Zerg is weak overall.

avance70

Member!
_Mike said:
I never said Zerg sucked, I was purely stating the fact that archon owns the shit out of the zerg with decent support.
well you cant just say that, because hydra own archons
you say archons with decens support...

youre probably thinking archons and templars, a pretty darn hard combination to beat if youre a unskilled zerg against skilled toss. yes, its not so easy to control the spells if youre unskilled toss... you need to place your storms correctly, or youll end up killing your own archons (since they are melee units and must get right next to hydra in order to attack them) - or missing the hydras completely... so if you are THAT good with unit control and spellcasting, youll probably play against equally skilled zerg.
and a good zerg player could counter you in many ways. well, toss used templars so, zerg, say, uses queens: your archons could be ensnared - so they become hell slow - and because archon is essentialy a melee unit, thats like a dead sentence already (with its everlasting 40 seconds effect). or even ensnare the templars what would make them slower than the overlord :)
queens can also spawn broodlings, and pick out your templars in a few seconds.

and i say, give me any toss combination, and i can quickly tell you what would be a good and CHEAPER zerg counter.

the game wouldnt be so good if the races were imbalanced.
 

Snagg

Premium Member
actually, you didnt
Read before you post.

nah they wont, newbie:
-zealots seriously overpowered by 40-50 lings
-marines suck against sunkens... youll need many many marines to kill 2 sunkens
and if youre talking about medics - by the time you have them, i have lurkers, and id like to see you try your marines on them
You said zealots, how many is that? 2? Ok. Of course. By the time you build 40-50 lings, protoss has way out-teched you.

Secondly, 10 marines (easy to obtain) kills one sunken in 8 hits. With a cool of 15, that is very fast. And, as I have said before, the sunkens will not hit the marines. Because there are zealots up front taking the damage.

Third, lurkers require lair and then a long upgrade. medics require an academy. No you cannot get lurks before I get medics.

What are you talking about, 40-50 ling against 20 zealots. I'm talking about 6-7 zealots for each player, which is 12-14. Against possibly 15 lings max. I was talking about two protoss against one zerg. One zerg can't build that many lings that early.


wrong, n00b
Refer to my second replay.

WRONG, zerg can still expand and have even more money. And dont tell me we're talking about some silly map without expansion sites.
True, but you missed the point, terran and protoss won't have to expand cuz they will never run out of money.

Seriously, _Mike and Snagg, you two love birds, do you guys even actually play the game?
I mean hardcore like 20~40 games per day.
Because it seems like you guys are like living in a fantasy world where you think you're good because you win most of the pubby games.
Ever heard of PGTour, Gamei, competitive ladder or competitive 1:1 channels on west?
To me all you do is just talk and no walk.
How is that even close to be relevent to the topic?

What I don't like about this forum is that some people are just so stubborn and ignorant they never listen to others yet they think their opinions are so good and valuable, and just ignore the hell outta everybody.
It's a debate.

As for 2on2 teamplay, Terran/Protoss? that's the WORST combination next to Terran/Terran.
Teamplay is the game where macro takes up the majority of the game and micro to back it up. The point of Zerg/Zerg is to finish one off, and finish off another later in the game.
Terran/Protoss is the best combination early game. Zealots take the damage while marines shoot safely without dying. Marine/Zealot combination will own many many zerglings. Later in the game, tank push while protoss protect the tanks. Turrets/protoss/goliaths to kill the queens.

P.S. - Snagg, we're not talking about BGH hunter here, so your posts are completey useless to me, phoenix, and avance.
How many times have I said, read the posts, before you post. We have been talking about money maps, bgh, and non-money maps. And zerg has lost especially in money maps/bgh.

Edit.
No one goes pure archons. Of course hydra will own archons, we never said archons would win. The reason we did the archon vs guards comparison was because everyone said guards will own archons.
 

avance70

Member!
a@... said:
It is Terran=Zerg>Protoss to me, anyway.
i agree.
but i play random :)

ok snagg!
rather than replying to all the stupid things you just said there (and theyre ALL unbelieveably stupid) ill just point out this:

Snagg said:
True, but you missed the point, terran and protoss won't have to expand cuz they will never run out of money.
there is no such think as never running out of money
because if there was a zerg could have like 100 hatcheries and producing 100 mutalisks every few seconds, and no matter how much anything youve got, it wouldnt be enough to defend

Snagg: I said one protoss one terran right?
avance70: actually, you didnt
Snagg: Read before you post.

Snagg said:
I am talking about one protoss and one terran/zerg.
you read before you post n00b.
:nooob
 

Snagg

Premium Member
there is no such think as never running out of money
because if there was a zerg could have like 100 hatcheries and producing 100 mutalisks every few seconds, and no matter how much anything youve got, it wouldnt be enough to defend
If there was a protoss with like 200 gateways and producing 50/50 dragoons zealots no matter how much anything youve got, it wouldn't be enough to defend.

Your reply was useless. You can say that about any race.

The fact you didn't reply to all the stuff there because they were well defended. Or else you would have been all over it picking apart fragments of my posts. So instead of admitting that they were well defended and you have nothing to say about them so you call it stupid. Good argument.

Wow, terran/zerg is the same thing, because later, if you read the post, I was saying zealots take the damage while the ranged units attack. Read FULLY becfore you post. Don't just read one sentence and make a conclusion from there.

You're a hypocrite, calling people stubborn and such when you are doing exactly what you calling people.
 

a@...

Member!
Snagg said:
Terran/Protoss is the best combination early game. Zealots take the damage while marines shoot safely without dying. Marine/Zealot combination will own many many zerglings. Later in the game, tank push while protoss protect the tanks. Turrets/protoss/goliaths to kill the queens.
I hope you're joking, the best combination?
The thing is, Terran CAN'T get out of his base until he gets his marine bats and medics. Marine/Zealot < Zerglings, no doubt. If you're saying zealots = meatshields you're wrong, unless z's are bunch of dumbasses, they will surround your men with lings and finish you off with ease. You think zealots > lings but you got it wrong, it's the opposite. Until Terran is ready to come out, Protoss has to defend all by himself against zerlings from two zerg. By the time Terran is ready, protoss will be done.
And queens? please.. the only units you will be making are units that are cheap, and come out fast enough to join the fight any second.

That's why Zerg/Zerg combination isn't allowed in OFFICIAL 2on2 tourneys that are big enough, if you didn't know.

Where do you play 2on2, and with who?
I'm wondering..

P.S. - Next time, please. Don't criticize my entire post, with the theory of "never ending argument"
 

avance70

Member!
haha, ok youve asked for it:

Snagg said:
Read before you post.
already given you the explanation...
you read before you post n00b.

Snagg said:
You said zealots, how many is that? 2? Ok. Of course. By the time you build 40-50 lings, protoss has way out-teched you.
heh i like your saying "read before you post": i said toss players go zealot rush, zerg players go ling rush. and with enough hatchs, zerg can make 4 lings while toss makes 1 zealot. and thats definitive. try it if you dont believe me.

Snagg said:
Secondly, 10 marines (easy to obtain) kills one sunken in 8 hits. With a cool of 15, that is very fast.
in order to defeat 2 sunkens youll need at least 15 marines, with micromanaging. also - read what a@... said

Snagg said:
And, as I have said before, the sunkens will not hit the marines. Because there are zealots up front taking the damage.
did you know you can order your sunkens what units to attack?? i guess not, n00b
and you make it sound like the lings are already dead (they alone could beat your zealots and marines)

Snagg said:
Third, lurkers require lair and then a long upgrade. medics require an academy. No you cannot get lurks before I get medics.
maybe not that fast, but almost as fast... by the time your m&m reach my base i will have lurkers - unless you attack with a very small force i which case the sunkens and lings would quickly kill you.

Snagg said:
What are you talking about, 40-50 ling against 20 zealots. I'm talking about 6-7 zealots for each player, which is 12-14. Against possibly 15 lings max. I was talking about two protoss against one zerg. One zerg can't build that many lings that early.
zerg cant build that many? you REALLY think so? if i make a reply with a ling rush would you admit youre a n00b?

Snagg said:
Refer to my second replay.
your second reply is like i made a bunch of lurkers and then attacked them with marines... noone will attack archons with lings like you made it, why did you even put that in??

and i must ask you, if the archons are so incredibly good, why dont pro players make many of them?

Snagg said:
Snagg said:
Snagg said:
I am talking about one protoss and one terran/zerg. Zealots are the meatshield, marines/hydralisks are the ranged.
Wow, terran/zerg is the same thing, because later, if you read the post, I was saying zealots take the damage while the ranged units attack.
I said one protoss one terran right?
Snagg said:
Turrets/protoss/goliaths to kill the queens
ok i understand the turrets and the goliaths... but protoss??? thats just funny
man, you dont even know what you write!

EDIT:

i have to add this:
out of first 1v1, 10 players on Pro Gaming:
2 are protoss
3 are terrans
5 are zerg

or, more interesting to you, out of 10 2v2 players:
1 is random
1 preferr terran
2 are protoss
1 is either zerg or terran
2 are zerg
3 preferr zerg

it would appear that the game is inbalanced in favour of zerg :) :)
 

Snagg

Premium Member
Money maps, zerg gets owned. Zerg's advantage is in non-money maps. That's what I've been talking about. Money maps, zerg is disadvantaged because Protoss and Terran do not need to rush.

You didn't look at my second replay? There were almost every single zerg unit?
 

a@...

Member!
Snagg said:
Money maps, zerg gets owned. Zerg's advantage is in non-money maps. That's what I've been talking about. Money maps, zerg is disadvantaged because Protoss and Terran do not need to rush.

You didn't look at my second replay? There were almost every single zerg unit?
No? Money maps and Zerg have nothing to do with rushing.
Actually, it is better off for the Zerg if P/T don't rush at all because they'll need to keep their economy flowing.
The reason why Terran player pressures Zerg with 10marines/2bats/2medics in the early game is to force zerg to make a few sunken colonies, which will slow down the time to get mutas/lurkers greatly while Terran's mind is occupied on something else, like getting his nats.

Zergs suck in money maps because they don't get the advantage from expanding at all, since there're are numerous amounts of mineral patches and vaspene geysers, Terran and Protoss will get the same amount of resources as the Zergs do. There is NO WAY Zergs can out-resource T/P in money maps. It is almost as if Z is playing "one base" vs T/P in non-money map games, you could look at it that way.

Way to be on topic, whoever said I was newb. That's totally irrelevant and ignorant.
Where do you get enough confidence to say that when you clearly stated yourself that you play in money maps?
From slaying newbs in the public game called "3vs3BGH<CLICK>CABLE/DSL ONLY!!"?

Do you even know what units deal explosive/concussive/normal dmg?
Or what units have light armor/medium armor/heavy armor?

And as I said before, Terran/Protoss, Terran/Terran <- worst combinations for 2:2, it's not an opinion, this is a fact

"NEWLY ADDED"
You didn't look at my second replay? There were almost every single zerg unit?
No, that replay was crap, have you ever noticed cumputers CAN'T micro and not to mention their AI.

I added my own replay to this post, I counted the EXACT number of units you had in your replay, meaning I counted every single lings, ultra, hydras, and archons. No upgrades. So take a look close look.
And if you're gonna whine "oh it was vs. computer! do it vs. players"
Then that goes straight for you too.

Considering how much gas templars take and how much time they'd need to get ten archons, I would have a lot more than that by the time ten archons are made.
In fact, I wouldn't recommend making any lings/mutas at all vs Archons, but only up'd pure hydras, that's all Z will need.

P.S.-
Gateways producing HT/Archon -> zerg notices -> pure hydra -> timing rush -> protoss will not have enough zealots/dragoons because gateways have been making high templars only -> GG for protoss.
Keep in mind that Protoss player will not risk his game by making Archons instead of zealots, and his precious storm.
Protoss player has to use his resources wisely and can't waste his gas like that since he won't get that many chance to expand in PvZ.
The only times Protoss will be making archons are: To fend off against mutas/ultras/crackling/badly wounded HT's/no mana left during the fight
 

avance70

Member!
Snagg said:
Money maps, zerg gets owned. Money maps, zerg is disadvantaged because Protoss and Terran do not need to rush.
thats just because pro players dont play money maps. i remember playing bgh once a long time ago, and random left me with zerg. and i expanded. boy did i have money. i remember building one full screen of hatcheries (dunno how many was that- prolly around 10-15), it was just fun to watch all that mutalisk attack, control was constantly 200, though i lost maybe 1000 mutas, i won the game easily.

i wonder how good could a pro player get on a money map.

Snagg said:
Zerg's advantage is in non-money maps. That's what I've been talking about.
well i hate to contradict this one, but you just say that zerg own other races on normal maps.
 

Phoenix2003

BattleForums Senior Member
Not really a flame war, per se, but more like an arguement between a poster with empty assertions and bad arguments vs 2 posters with arguements with back up.

Snagg keeps bring ing up moneymaps, which non-pubby(somewhat decnet) players don't play so his arguments are pretty void. I do agree that zerg are weak on money maps, but it doesn't change the fact that zerg aren't weak. If anything zerg is pretty overpowered vs toss on most non-money maps.
 
L

Laharl

I'd like to see a person manage to truely manage to mass carriers, bcs or archons on nonmoney maps. Sure, the archons are better each (than guardians), but they have terrible range and somewhat terrible build time.

Also, it's really inconveniencing to build them (It involves morphing two already built templar), they take up four (?) supply, and cannot be rush built quickly for defense. That, and they are severely limited vs terran because of EMP. Zerg can own a few archons via defiler, zerglings and much microing.
 

Ntrik_

Premium Member
Big-Fat-Homo said:
I'd like to see a person manage to truely manage to mass carriers, bcs or archons on nonmoney maps. Sure, the archons are better each (than guardians), but they have terrible range and somewhat terrible build time.

Also, it's really inconveniencing to build them (It involves morphing two already built templar), they take up four (?) supply, and cannot be rush built quickly for defense. That, and they are severely limited vs terran because of EMP. Zerg can own a few archons via defiler, zerglings and much microing.
who'd mass archons lol, most likely they'd mix it up with other ground units.

and this was strictly for z v p, lawl
 
i guess this is kind of late but, snagg, if you actually even thought that you needed a hive to upgrade metabollic boost, then you are complete noob. there is no defending that mistake
 
betaalpha5 said:
and yey i hope you read how after about 3 post he found out that he was wrong...
exactly. he found out that he was wrong. which means that at sometime he thought that you had to have a hive to upgrade metabollic boost. even some noobs who have never played with zerg know that you dont need to have a hive to upgrade boost.
 
i can kind of see what snagg is saying
kinda
but if you are talking about money maps, then zerg can get gas the fastest (since you start with 50 mins and an extractor costs 50) and then form there you have 3 drones mining which is enough to get sufficient minerals to get a good base running, however i dont think anyone does that)
aside from that, the thread is called ZERG IS WEAK OVERALL not just against protoss (which its not) so that includes the terrans too
but for a@... and phoenix, imo zerg is best 2v2 not 1v1
 

Snagg

Premium Member
Extractors actually cost 50 min + a 50 min drone. That's why the price of buildings are all 50 min cheaper. Bceause you need a drone. This thread needs to die.
 
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