If God is good, why is the world so bad?

concrete_sox

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just as i suspected the usual christian answers is just answering my questions with questions sorry but im done with this thread and christianity has just been BUSTED
 

Emperor Pan I

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just as i suspected the usual christian answers is just answering my questions with questions sorry but im done with this thread and christianity has just been BUSTED
Typical, you can't answer his questions, so you fail at trying to disprove anything. All your questions were asking is the typical illogical uneducated point of view. He doesn't give direct answers, because you are asking something that has nothing to do with Christianity, just a false perception of others looking in.
 

concrete_sox

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why should i bother when you give stupid answers like "we are proof god exists"
god cant have created everything because if he did then he is non-existent because he created everything but he couldnt have created himself because he wasnt in existence to create himself so he did not create everything he is not the one and only god like he apparently said he was because if something created him then that would make that thing an even more powerful god


also iff god knows the decision of every individual before they are born regarding the acceptance or not of Jesus as a savior, then why does he create one set of individuals destined for heaven and another set destined for eternal damnation?? this seems unjust, shitty, gay and particularly evil
 

Emperor Pan I

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why should i bother when you give stupid answers like "we are proof god exists"
We are. We can't recreate life, we don't know how it started, and as such science doesn't have an answer, so The fact we exist and science can't explain that leaves room for God to explain why we exist.

god cant have created everything because if he did then he is non-existent because he created everything but he couldnt have created himself because he wasnt in existence to create himself so he did not create everything he is not the one and only god like he apparently said he was because if something created him then that would make that thing an even more powerful god
God is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. In existence before everything, and existence at the end of everything.

also iff god knows the decision of every individual before they are born regarding the acceptance or not of Jesus as a savior, then why does he create one set of individuals destined for heaven and another set destined for eternal damnation?? this seems unjust, shitty, gay and particularly evil
I already explained why that is false when I covered Hell. Learn to read.
 

TheSummit

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Seriously little-cheeze, while I see your points and the validity of some of them you really have to work on your discussion style.

"christianity has just been BUSTED" or "this seems unjust, shitty, gay and particularly evil"? That's definetly no basis where you can expect others to hold a serious discussion with you, especially if the subject has such an importance for their lives.

As I said, I totally agree that "four corners" clearly indicates a flat geometrical form, being a square or rectangle, nothing metaphoric. "End of world" might be metaphoric but "four corners" is definetly not.

Anyways, noone in this thread claimed that god, if something like a god exists, gave us all the knowledge of the universe or packed it into a compendium called bible. Still, we do have the power to aquire it and the world's geometrically flat form is not the only "fact" that got proven wrong by our own ability to learn.

As for god's existence, I don't believe that something like a god exists in the form of a being but I'll try another interpretation without bible quotes.

I am pretty sure you haven't touched or tasted courage yet (not the cartoon dog :p), yet you won't argue that some people have proven strength and the will to sacrifice themselves in hard situations, which we call courage.

If you stop to demand proof that god is a being that had to start existing at one point you might start to accept the possibility of god as a thought that lives in a lot of people's heads guiding their actions.
"Just" a thought, a feeling, nothing material...but the fact that there are and were millions of people that lived and acted according to something they thought and felt is proof enough that there is at least something you can call god inside them. Interpreting it this way makes "we are proof god exists" a valid statement.

As for me, I haven't felt anything similar to "god" and I most likely never will. I am still open for the possibility that a thought/feeling like that exists and I have seen people proving it.
 

Tipsy

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As I said, I totally agree that "four corners" clearly indicates a flat geometrical form, being a square or rectangle, nothing metaphoric. "End of world" might be metaphoric but "four corners" is definetly not.
Is there a reason that it couldn't be talking about the four cardinal directions? For the Bible also states the earth is a circle:

"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,"
Isaiah 40:22

One could claim the people who wrote the Bible are idiots, but I don't think that anyone is dumb enough to claim a circle has four corners.

Also, the actual translation of the Bible to English wouldn't promote a geometric interpretation:

"The word translated "corners," as in the phrase above, is the Hebrew word, KANAPH. Kanaph is translated in a variety of ways. However, it generally means extremity.

It is translated "borders" in Numbers 15:38. In Ezekiel 7:2 it is translated "four corners" and again in Isaiah 11:12 "four corners." Job 37:3 and 38:13 as "ends."
It's like when you would say 'the sun is rising' - that implies the sun is moving and thus you must believe that the sun moves around the earth. Either that, or you could be using the figure of speech known as 'language of appearance'. Or similarly, it could be talking about four far away places (like one of the passages where it says four corners).
 

TheSummit

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"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,"
Isaiah 40:22

"The word translated "corners," as in the phrase above, is the Hebrew word, KANAPH. Kanaph is translated in a variety of ways. However, it generally means extremity.
Very nice find. All quotes combined convince me. Especially the translation. Amazing that I didn't ask for the original version in the first place. Good one thanks :)
 

concrete_sox

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a circle is flat so he is still wrong



also wtf is with them saying the earth has pillars then hmmm?
"He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (From the NIV Bible, Job 9:6)"

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:4)"

and here it says the earth has edges?
"that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:13)"

Job 38:44 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?
if he thought it the earth was a globe then he would of said stretch a line around it
 

Tipsy

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also wtf is with them saying the earth has pillars then hmmm?
"He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (From the NIV Bible, Job 9:6)"
It looks like it means earthquake; though in the context of the passage it looks like the meaning is that God is powerful.

Then Job answered,
2"In truth I know that this is so;
But how can a (A)man be in the right before God?
3"If one wished to (B)dispute with Him,
He could not answer Him once in a thousand times.
4"(C)Wise in heart and (D)mighty in strength,
Who has (E)defied Him without harm?
5"(F)It is God who removes the mountains, they know not how,
When He overturns them in His anger;
6Who (G)shakes the earth out of its place,
And its (H)pillars tremble;

7Who commands the (I)sun not to shine,
And sets a seal upon the stars;
8Who alone (J)stretches out the heavens
And (K)tramples down the waves of the sea;
9Who makes the (L)Bear, Orion and the Pleiades,
And the (M)chambers of the south;

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:4)"
Laid the Earth's foundation = created the Earth; that itself is a pretty straightforward idea.

a circle is flat so he is still wrong


and here it says the earth has edges?
"that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:13)"
I need you to reconcile the fact that the Earth is both a square and a circle because only you are reading this word for word literally. You're reading it as no Christians do. Once you can disprove a world full of mathematicians into saying a circle has edges and is a square, I'll be able to read these two passages as talking about geometric shapes. Go for it.

Grab the earth and shake out the wicked? Both figurative actions - grabbing the Earth and shaking sinners out. Net result is removing sinners from the world.


Job 38:44 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?
if he thought it the earth was a globe then he would of said stretch a line around it
Minute translation things; for example if you look at the Catholic version of the Bible this passage states: "Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it?"

Any reasonable person should be able to very easily see that the passage is just talking about creating the Earth - the little detail like across, on, or around are meaningless translation issues and it is salvation, the big picture, that counts.

I guess The word "circle" in Hebrew is translated in a variety of ways .
Adding to this @ little-cheez, the Hebrew word for circle can also mean sphere. Regardless, I want you, little-cheez, to show me support for your interpretation that these passages are talking about geometric shapes.
 

concrete_sox

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dude no unbiased person would deny the obvious and embarrassing quotes above only the desperate biased Jews and Christians would

also if the evil in the world is intended by god he is must not be good. if it fucks up his intentions he is not clearlly not almighty so god cant be both almighty and good.
since God is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil so if only God can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can we know that god, and not luficer/satan/devil/diablo/ the dark lord created the universe??
 

Hiatei

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Epicarus said:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him god.
Surprised nobody got this one in first.
 

Renzokuken

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Surprised nobody got this one in first.
Is that what you believe?

"Epicarus said:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
"If God were to annihilate sin and its consequences as soon as they took place what would be the result? Loss of freedom of choice."

Epicarus said:
Is he able but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
He is love.

"God made us for love. He can draw us into the experience of love. Yet love, by its very nature is something even an omnipotent (all-powerful) God can't make us experience. Love is spontaneous. The capacity for love, therefore, requires a certain degree of self-determining freedom to love or not to love."

also if the evil in the world is intended by god he is must not be good.
The evil in this world is not his intention.

since God is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil
Why is he responsible?

so if only God can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can we know that god, and not luficer/satan/devil/diablo/ the dark lord created the universe??
We can know God created the universe because it says so.

John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life,
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

This world sucks, i get it. But people spend so much time complaining about it and pointing the finger at God, when God paid the ULTIMATE sacrifice by sending his Son to Earth, to save us. Think about it, he sent his own begotten Son, to die for a world that doesn't like him, so that they may be saved. That's pretty powerful.
God loves us so much he's given us a way out of this place, to spend eternity with him, why not take it? It's a free gift, so whoever believes will be saved by their faith, not of their works, lest they boast. Who doesn't want a free gift?
 

Hiatei

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The problem, in my eyes, is the creation of excuses for some of "God"'s really strange behaviour.

Like, for example, it is claimed by many Christian groups that God will answer every prayer, and cure diseases/etc if you ask.

However, God will never do something that isn't possible it would seem. Like, for example, "curing amputees".

It's even been proven that prayer doesn't even have a placebo effect: Those who were aware they were being "prayed for" actually had a lower chance of recovery than those who were either unaware, or didn't have such a "benefit".

I will dig up evidence, if I get around to it.
 

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dude no unbiased person would deny the obvious and embarrassing quotes above only the desperate biased Jews and Christians would
So you're saying that all unbiased people would claim a square = circle and a circle has corners? You're saying an unbiased person takes things out of context and does not look to see what is around it to see what it means? By that definition, the only unbiased people are probably third graders that go to a terrible elementary school.

also if the evil in the world is intended by god he is must not be good. if it fucks up his intentions he is not clearlly not almighty so god cant be both almighty and good.
since God is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil so if only God can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can we know that god, and not luficer/satan/devil/diablo/ the dark lord created the universe??
It depends on whether you value free will more than a world without evil. By the Christian view, free will is more important (since the whole religion is based on making choices and throughout the Bible it says we have free will, starting with being created in God's image in Genesis). You can value security over cognizance, however that's your personal opinion, not an inconsistency with God.
 

ChrisH36

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Why is Religion being used to judge good and bad?

Religion can be labeled as "the root of all evil and good". It brings people together, but all of the biggest tradegies in society have been linked to biblical and religious proportions.

Plus, the bible is ment to be taken contextually, not literally.

I have personally seen Christianity as a method, or a teaching aid on how to be kind to others. And Religion was designed to give you some "spiritual fulfillment", and God was like a role model to try and go by.

But there are some people who don't think like so, and that's why you have a "bad world". God is good, yes - but the people that are on this Earth as not perfect - and can be nowhere near perfect like him. Mainly because we all sin, and we all have - at least once in our lives - have had the capacity for evil and have done it.

LC said:
also if the evil in the world is intended by god he is must not be good. if it fucks up his intentions he is not clearlly not almighty so god cant be both almighty and good.
since God is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil so if only God can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can we know that god, and not luficer/satan/devil/diablo/ the dark lord created the universe??
God didn't "create evil". We created it ourselves. In the Garden of Eden story for the Bible. And in our everyday actions we cause in our everyday lives.

And Satan was a fallen angel who was punished for rebelling against God, which he did HIMSELF. Satan's protrayal of God led him to do this and get banished.

And you cannot speak in a way like you know God, nobody here can. Yet, people do.

Also Cheeze, you have had a problem - and will probably always have it - and that's the fact you take things literally and not find the "deeper meaning". And I have proven this defunct many times in the past.

Tipsy likes to speak in philosophy, and you need to be deep into his way of thinking for him to make sense, kind of like a contextualist. Plus, judging from your responses - you are taking the bible as a literalist, which is colliding with the interpretation of how one sees the other.

Renzokuken said:
We can know God created the universe because it says so.
Yes. But its hard to say which is the correct answer. All we can go by is theory.
 

ChrisH36

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Not all the time.
Im some cases, its recommended. Like for instance, the story of Moses. It is true that Jewish people were slaved by Egypt, and they did liberate themselves through Moses aid. But there is no way a man can split a lake to allow the people to cross. Or how some biblical characters like Abraham are like 400 years old in the Bible.

But there are times, like Jesus Christ dying on the cross, that must be taken seriously, and literally.

Renzo said:
Why can't you?
Because God has the answers, and we cant exactly call him up on the telephone and ask for his opinion. Not one person can be the "Voice of God", not even Pope Benedict.

Personally, the only person who should know 100% about themselves is themselves, and maybe close friends and family.

Renzo said:
We don't have to go by theory.
Yes, there are others.
 

concrete_sox

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if god created everything then he created time but it is impossible for actions which follow one another without reference to time so its logically impossible of a creator who exists outside of time so god couldnt of always existed, i have to say religeon is for the weak minded (renzo) and relief from fear of death

and if god created us to experience love then why did he create depression and sadness and anxiety
 
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