Military Debate (Otmo this is a must for you)

[ORC-r0x0r-ROC]

I know we've all been itching to have a massive military debate (especially me and otmo). This won't be the common country vs country thread. We will concentrate on one area at a time, lets start with fighters(We will move on to tanks ect). The best contenders seem to be: Sukoi(37), Eurofighter(typhoon), f-22 Raptor(even thought it isn't in production). I ain't gonna put a poll up, because there are so many idiotic yanks here and they'll all vote for raptor because its American, even if they know nothing about it.

 

[bamthedoc]

The F-22 Raptor is in production, and it is the best fighter out there. I'm not saying this out of bias, as I've read up on stats for all of them. Also, a British review show, Future Fighting Machines (FFM), gave it a near perfect score. They're scorring system is called the FFM Factor. The Raptor got a 6/7 (or was it 7/8?). The Typhoon is an awsome machine as well, recieving a similar score as the Raptor, but it just fell short. The Sukoi didn't impress me as much, but I do like it.

I like the US JGS Fighter (Joint-Group Strike) that is still on the drawing boards. There's another Eurofighter that impressed me more than the Typhoon, even if only slightly, that will be, essentially, teh same as the US JGS Fighter. I'm not going to say which fighter will beat which, as that is completely up to the fighter pilot's skill. However, the Raptor and Typhoon are the best for radar aversion and kill factor.

 

[Kuzmich]

My first link.
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~fta/Su-27.htm

And Bamthedoc, F-22 isnt the best, but lets argue, and you should know that we got another plain in development to counter your F-22, Su-47 Berkut, its as manuverable as Su-37 (which is as manuverable as a plain can get this days) and it has stealth tech.

also i got a question wtf is this. I found it on yahoo.
http://battleforums.com/history/show/52561.html

and this is about Berkut
http://homepage.idx.com.au/markvine/s37/s37.html

 

[ORC-r0x0r-ROC]

Well, 2 posts, ALREADY!

The F-22 Raptor is in production,

Really? I thought it wasn't going to be in production untill 2005, still the other planes have been out a lot longer.

Also, a British review show, Future Fighting Machines (FFM),

I wouldn't really trust that..

I like the US JGS Fighter (Joint-Group Strike)

Actually, isn't it the JSF (joint-strike-fighter). Britain is helping the yankes out with it, like the harrier tech.

The Sukoi didn't impress me as much, but I do like it.

It is the MOST manuverable plane in the world, you should really go to a airshow with the sukhoi, it is magnificiant and can pull stunts that seem almost impossible.

The Euro-Fighter (urm aren't I repeating myself) is faster, more manuverable and over 3 times cheaper than the raptor. It has a lower maintenance cost and it has been out longer.

There's another Eurofighter

Do you mean the french rafale(sp?)?

 

[bamthedoc]

Clinton, oddly enough, started produciton on the F-22. However, it was halted for a while, and Bush renewed the production contract.

FFM is a pretty good show. I'm not saying I trust it 100%, but it can be quite reliable.

JSF is correct... Yes, I know there are multiple contries involved in it's production. It may well outdo anything to date, but I won't speculate this far in advance.

Manuverabilty isn't everything. That's why the FY-22 got production rights over the FY-23. The FY-23 is actually the fastest and most manuverable stealth fighter ever produced. However, it lost to the FY-22 (now the F-22 Raptor) because it didn't have the payload or targetting capabilities required. The Sukoi has the same negative aspects.

I wouldn't mention the French Rafale (same spelling question) in the same breath as any other fighter on the market. I may have respect for the French people, but their military has been pitiful since the French Revolution. I think it's Norwegian (bah, sorry for my spelling) in origin, actually. It's a very nice fighter.

 

[Kuzmich]

Well about FY-23 being the most manuverable plain i doubt it, i heard you experimented with vector engines but failed so you moved on to stealth, the thing is that we doin that too, SU-47 is a stealth plain, read my third link.

 

[bamthedoc]

The F-22 uses vector engines...

I'd like to add that vector engines are, possibly, the best way to go for stealth. Also, "Y" is code for "experimental".

I never said the Sokoi was "bad". I said it didn't impress me as much. It very much did impress me.

 

[Kuzmich]

No it doesnt. Su-37 does. Proove it. Ofcourse it doesnt.

 

[ORC-r0x0r-ROC]

Clinton, oddly enough, started produciton on the F-22. However, it was halted for a while, and Bush renewed the production contract.

Are you sure you're not confusing it with the prototypes.

JSF is correct... Yes, I know there are multiple contries involved in it's production. It may well outdo anything to date, but I won't speculate this far in advance.

Yeah but, it is most likely to be in production around 2013 or something daft.

most manuverable stealth fighter

I don't know if you confuse this or not, but for future referance the f-22 isn't stealth, it has stealth capabilities. Same might be for the f-23.

I wouldn't mention the French Rafale (same spelling question) in the same breath as any other fighter on the market.

Then what was the other eurofighter? Do not doubt the rafale.

Well about FY-23 being the most manuverable plain i doubt it, i heard you experimented with vector engines but failed so you moved on to stealth, the thing is that we doin that too, SU-47 is a stealth plain, read my third link.

Urm I think he said most manuverable stealth plane. I don't doubt this, stealth planes don't tend to be manuverable. The Americans are still playing with vector thrust and they are no way near as adept as the russians with that sort of tech.

The F-22 uses vector engines...

Yeah it's a quite recent(I don't really mean recent) adjustment.

 

[bamthedoc]

http://www.air-attack.com/aircraft_page.php?pid=14

components give the nozzles the durability needed to vector thrust

It uses vector engines.

I don't doubt the Rafale any more than I doubt the French armed forces. France has one of the worst standing 1st world armies. They have since the French Revolution, unfortunatetly.

We have F-22s in the USAF. I did find out that production had, completetly, stopped, however. We are going to restart production in 2005, but we didn't have enough for Afganistani or Iraqi full deployment. I think there were a few in one of the countries, but I can't confirm that.

 

[Kuzmich]

The F-22 is powered by two Pratt and Whitney F119-100 engines. The F119-100 is a low-bypass afterburning turbofan engine, providing 156kN thrust.

Hmm i think you made this up, it doesnt say anything about vector engines anythere.

Oh nvm just found out that it does use it, but less then Su-37, only 20 degrees. Bartuck is also gonna use stealth and vector.

 

[bamthedoc]

I'm not to sure if those, specifically, are the vector engines used, but the F-22 Raptor does use vector thrust engines. I don't think they're called "vector", however.

~~EDIT~~

Nevermind, you beat me to edit.

 

[ORC-r0x0r-ROC]

We have F-22s in the USAF

I knew you had something like 10 of them but I classed them as like prototypes. The rafale is a pretty good plane I'm not saiying it's excellent, but I wouldn't knock it. In future lets just call the sukhoi SU-37, mmmk?

EDIT: Otmo, thats why I said the yankes are still playing with it.

 

[Kuzmich]

Well as long as it cant do the stuff SU-37 can do its not superior. You right vector thrust is the word, just calling it vector to make it short. Su-37 has a greater maneurablity cause its vector engines are more advanced.

 

[bamthedoc]

I'd knock the Franch army, though. NOTE: I'm not refering to France or the French as a whole!! I do respect the country and people even if I don't like their military. They'll enjoy the United Euro Army quite well.

I think we actually have something like twenty. It's not a large number, and we, basically, only have them at one or two bases. The USAF, not to mention the entire US Armed Forces, was quite mad with Clinton, and especicially Gore, for it's long delay.



~~EDIT~~

I also said manuverabilty and speed isn't everything. The Raptor is the only fighter that can sustain mach speed in cruise. That means it expends less fuel going mach.

 

[Jiggy]

The F-22 is in production but not service.

You still cant beat a good old F-14 Tomcat or a F/A-18 Hornet.

 

[bamthedoc]

I like the F-15 Eagle and F-16 Thunderbird, better. The F-14 Tomcat and F-18 Hornet are good, however.

 

[Kuzmich]

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/su37/
Here is a link about Su-37 vector engines.
Your good old F-14 are already beat by Su-37, and SU-35 so dont see them as worth mentioning.

 

[bamthedoc]

ORC and Oto, you heard that there are two JSF planes on the drawing board? One is for something like 2016, and the other is supposed to be in prototype form in 2010 or slightly earlier. The JSFs are going to be great fighters, in my opinion, because of the multi-national cooperation in making them.

 

[Jiggy]

Why must you always say something to argue with me? I just put in my two cents and you came in and say your Russian stuff is better. Cant you just not do that. It would greatly lower my blood pressure.

By the way the F-14 is the sweetest plane ever so go die.