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l33t 0n3

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Black~Enthusiasm said:
Here's the reason I hate Bush, its not because of the war itself, but because the moron went in Irak alone, ****ing alone ! . And dont give me this "coallition of the willing" crap, because, who do you see dying in Irak ? americans. Who's country had to start digging into emergency fund to pay for a war that nobody know when it will end ? The United States.
This is the main problem I have with the monkey man, he managed to alienate most of his allies. If you can't ****ing convince anybody that your war is a good thing, maybe its not a good idea to go, dont you think ?
Do you have any idea how stupid, lunatic and impossible the task of implementing a successful democracy in an hostil country is ? Addoption by non-Western societies of Western democratic institutions give access and encourage the power to nativist and anti-Western movements. In the 1960 and 1970, Westernized and pro-Western government in developing country where treatened by coups and revolution, but in the 1980, 90 and in 2000, pro-Western government are even more in danger of being ousted by elections.

Democratisation conflict with Westernisation, and politicians in non-Western societies dont win election by showing how pro-Wetsern they are, but electoral competition insteed stimulate them to fashion what they believe will appeal to the mass and those are ethnic, nationalist and religious caracter.

You'll never have a durable democracy in Irak, your stuck there defending something that will never live on its own, your stuck there for a very long time, and your stuck there alone.
How long can your frail economy support this war ?

And dont compar this situation with the succesful implementation of democracies in Germany and Japan in WWII, those where different times. For once, those countries where irremediably crushed and occupied by western forces. Secondly, Western values and culture had a tremendous apeal that they dont have today, on the contrary.
Sorry that you have to listen to propaganda, but I would like to correct you on a few points.
- If you have looked, the rate of Iraqi terrorists killed is far greater than American Soldiers.
- Bush spent quite a bit of time before declaring war trying to convince France and Germany to go to war. He most likely realized it was pointless, and he was only wasting time by doing so, and went to war.
- While our economy may seem frail to you, it is stable compared to most nations. Why? Most of the world relies on trade through us. To forewarn you, do not give statistics on how it has dropped during GWB's presidency. That is the only argument a democrat has on the subject: before and after statistics that do not put into account that the world trade center was destroyed. During a time of crisis, GWB kept America from falling indo depression, and is doing a damn good job of fixing it. The only giant dent I see from the towers falling is gas prices. The economy is recreating itself at a fast pace, now.
- In my opinion, I would consider Iraq a tea-party to Germany. While the Germans were broken, you can't forget the Russian communist half of Germany, which fueled the Cold War. Still, I agree with your point there. The only possible way to bring stability to the middle east would be to deal with it all at once, but the world does not have enough resources to do so. It will always be a hotspot for conflict. You fail to realize that although bringing a permanent democracy to Iraq is seemingly impossible, leaving Iraq alone would only make the problem worse. I'll relate this to a test: It's better to try to answer the problem instead of leaving it blank. This way, you show that you care, and you have a chance at getting credit.

The funny thing about the middle east is that it is always a double-sided problem. On one side, you can't leave it how it is, but it is impossible to solve. That's always how debate is, though, however the world's history shows that the impossible can happen. or not. I will wait for time to solve this.

So homo, If 12 intelligance agancys from around the world told you that Iraq had weapons of Mass destruction you would push them off? I know he didnt have any but Bush didnt "lie". He was misinformed from other intelligance agancys. But you shouldnt judge the enitre war effect on the one point.
Actually, I believe the information was correct. The UN took too long and was too leniant (They freaking scheduled with the iraqis the inspections) giving the terrorists a long time to drag them into another country. GWB definately knows this, but he would not get elected if he persued the weapons yet. I would expect to see a new war within his next term. However, I think the conflicts near India are more of a priority.
 
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Laharl

I'm judging it based on the fact that it's a person's job to shift through bad advice to find the good stuff. There must have been some intelligence agencies telling him otherwise. Then there was the UN. They were saying loud and clear - NOTHING THERE. But Bush pushed THEM aside.
 

l33t 0n3

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Big-Fat-Homo said:
I'm judging it based on the fact that it's a person's job to shift through bad advice to find the good stuff. There must have been some intelligence agencies telling him otherwise. Then there was the UN. They were saying loud and clear - NOTHING THERE. But Bush pushed THEM aside.

The UN gave dates on when they would inspect, and waited a long time to act. No shit they found nothing, they gave the terrorists time to hide their weapons. Bush was one of the many who knew this from the start of the inspections and knew that the UN wasn't serious about Iraq. He ignored their attempt to cover up the weapons and declared war.
 

Undead Cheese

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cxoli said:
So you deny the fact that there are people who starve to death in the United States.
People may starve, but we have no food shortages. They just don't have enough money to get the food (which isn't expensive anyway, and that isn't really an excuse since there are plenty of places you can find a free meal)
 
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Laharl

1337 on3? Than why has America found nothing plausible. I, personally, don't like being lied to. Maybe America does, but we Canadians don't stand for it.
 

TrongaMonga

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l33t 0n3 said:
The UN gave dates on when they would inspect, and waited a long time to act. No shit they found nothing, they gave the terrorists time to hide their weapons. Bush was one of the many who knew this from the start of the inspections and knew that the UN wasn't serious about Iraq. He ignored their attempt to cover up the weapons and declared war.
America's there some time now, what WMD did they found?
 

ORC-r0x0r-ROC

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Just to point out, what ORC-r0x0r-Roc says had nothing to do with anything because he misunderstood the meaning of pro-life.
I don't know what pro-life is? Usually when some says "pro" then another word I usually think they approve of this. Ok I was wrong, I am sorry, I was confused that Bush cared about human life.
 

AZN_FLEA

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Bush is a geat presiden in my eyes. he speaks all funny HAHAHA, he looks like a monkey too HAHAHA. the best president in the history of USA.

iraq had chemical weopons that might be fatal to millions of lives. if even one of them spreads on the US they will face heavy losses. which reminds me a statement in hte bible, cant remember exactly but it said something about <terrorism increasing in frequency (everyone lknows about the frequency of terrorism these days)> <increasing diseases like sars and possibly iraqies chemical weopon> <increasing conflict and war. iraqies had a war and that is probably just the beggining, world war 3 might happen soon because of disagreement between countries and the UN is messing up.>
can you see the accuracy of the bible? the trials and tribulations are coming be ready. Jesus is coming. and no i did not make that up. look it up on the bible or a christian book.
 
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What? That is a pretty lame argument for conservativism. Instead of just repeating what your father says at the dinner table, how about thinking for yourself for a change? Bush is a man that is all about dollar signs. He is a corporate man. I am a little more interested in the well being of the have-nots. Don't you care about people who have nothing and, due to that fact, have no opportunity to gain anything? I hate to sound idealistic (I really do loathe idealism), but it only seems fair that those at the very bottom get some serious help from those at the very top. How much is enough man? At least voting Democrat can sometimes have the side effect of social program. Don't hear me wrong, I am not happy that I have to vote Democrat. I am all for ressurecting Eugene Debbs from the dead and having him be our president. As far as terrorism is concerned, well, I don't think either of the candidates would have been easy on those psychos, who in their right mind would be? Do you honestly think that Kerry (boo) would let any terrorist acts go unpunished any more than Bush (boo, hiss) would? I don't know man. I don't think so. But who cares, Bush has once again bee declared our fearless leader let's all just hope that he doesn't do anything too dumb.
 
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dreamcrusader said:
Iraq isnt a huge threat to Israel, but its still a valid point.

And btw yes I know that American news is Biased BUT I do no the difference between liberal news and more balanced news. There are a few news organizations that are great. Like Fox News.

And why would he build WMD's and have no means of using them? He already did in the early 90's on his own people. You cant trust a person like that.

And we are supporting a revolution. But the former Iraq military was one of the strongest in the world. Militia wouldnt do shit agianst them. That is one thing we are trying to do. They are gaining more responsibility for their own country but we are helping them out alot. Giving them time to organaize an army and train troops.

And yes I agree that we are setting up some of their governments but to say that it is solely based on the idea of helping us and getting us oil breaks is asanine. But even you have to admit that relations between Iraq Afghanastan and the US would be alot more friendly once this is settled. I think that you are right to an extant on that point but think of it in alot different means. I think in the long run it will help both our economys.

Then why are the sons of american being shot from behind barriors (supplied by us to the iraqi police) by OUR own high tech weapons? Sorry i had to say it. This war is stupid. it could have been handeled better
 

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TrongaMonga said:
America's there some time now, what WMD did they found?
actually, recentally, they found a lab in flagellan(i think) and have found plans on how to make the bombs or something of the sort, lemme find a site with it...click me

so dont be too surprised....
 

Tipsy

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ORC-r0x0r-ROC said:
I don't know what pro-life is? Usually when some says "pro" then another word I usually think they approve of this. Ok I was wrong, I am sorry, I was confused that Bush cared about human life.
He does support life, he supports those 1.3 million little ones who are the most innocent amongst us all.

which reminds me a statement in hte bible, cant remember exactly but it said something about <terrorism increasing in frequency (everyone lknows about the frequency of terrorism these days)> <increasing diseases like sars and possibly iraqies chemical weopon> <increasing conflict and war. iraqies had a war and that is probably just the beggining, world war 3 might happen soon because of disagreement between countries and the UN is messing up.>
If you are refering to what I believe you are referring to i'll just point a few things out about it. First off, this is not said that clearly by the bible. I think you've just been watching the history channel too much. What he is refering to is a group of study done by a group of Jewish statistics people and such is referred to as 'bible code'. They basically have a theory based of the bible that closely resembles the boarders of nations today described in Asia/Middle East today and can be applied to the Palestinean and Isreal problem. It has been supported by other lines that somewheres in the 5900s I believe (i'm not 100% sure of the exact date), but whatever it is, in our calendar it translated to 2010 A.D. Basically they assume it says is that a war will be caused by this and basically all hell will break loose.

That is just what he is referring to, and now to continue. That is all theories made of the bible which in itself isn't viable evidence because many people on these forums don't even believe God exists, let alone the bible being true. There is plenty of evidence for and against them but in the end it works just as well as Nostradamus does to predict the future and such. This is a theory that was made and it is in no way said as he put it up there.

can you see the accuracy of the bible? the trials and tribulations are coming be ready. Jesus is coming. and no i did not make that up. look it up on the bible or a christian book.
Trust me, what you said in those words isn't there. As for the 'second coming of Jesus' I could make an entire other thread to talk about that, this isn't the place and has nothing to do with this argument.

Bush is a man that is all about dollar signs. He is a corporate man.
Thats funny, last I heard we were in deeper debt.

I am a little more interested in the well being of the have-nots. Don't you care about people who have nothing and, due to that fact, have no opportunity to gain anything? I hate to sound idealistic (I really do loathe idealism), but it only seems fair that those at the very bottom get some serious help from those at the very top
Okay, well you say you voted for Democrats because they will help the people with the have-nots. Well your looking at the wrong ones. The people you are looking at have a change to do something with their life, hell, atleast they have life. Those 1.3 million aborted to-be babies per year don't even get a chance at life, and the have-nots you are referring to have a whole lot more than the murdered young ones.

This is just to clear up the things about religion.
 

amrtin77

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so what we lost vietnam... i dont really see why viernam is bitched about so much. i agree, theres things we shouldnt have done while fighting that war, but at least we had a goddamn purpose in vietnam. containing communism worked in korea, why shouldnt we think it would work in vietnam? its not like we just went over to vietnam for no reason to fight... the cold war was still seriously going on. if your going to bitch about something, bitch about the draft and the civilian casualties. not the entire war... i dont see a problem with us going into vietnam because we felt russia was too powerful and we had to stop them wherever they tried to expand.

guerrilla warfare is nothing new, you all know this. afterwars can be deadly, but our military is very conventional based and see how quickly the "war" was over? our military is extremely powerful conventionally. what we need is more special forces after the war for guerrialla fighting... or we need to teach our soldiers how to fight like the enemy fights after the conventional warfare is over.
 

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I wasn't bitching, I was pointing out that small groups of guerillas managed to kill 70k u.s soilders, so calling them guerillas isn't exactlly duragtory.

But on the topic of vietnam, we were warned not to go their in the 50's by U.S surveyers, and the french's defeat.
 

amrtin77

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i thought you were simply trying to make an argument against the war in iraq because its similar in ways to vietnam, my bad.

definately our soldiers were uprepared for the guerrilla stlye fighting, but i think containing russia was a good reason to go to was during that time. we had better weapons, the soldiers had to have gotten used to the combat after awhile, our defeat was truely a political defeat. we did not accomplish what we set out to do, we dragged the war out way longer than we should have by letting politicians have a say in a combat environment, and we had too many people protesting the war at home.

i feel that the french defeat in vietnam is more reason to go there... help our allies regain their territory and contan russia at the same time...



there is always going to be resistance after the fighting. we just have to deal with it, and accept it as a part of war. one you start, you cant pull out without ****ing the invaded country over for a long long time.
 

Nicholas The Slide

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Heres a paperi wrote on this. id you want to use any of this/see me sources PLEASE JUST ASK ME. DO NOT JUST COPY THIS PAPER AS YOUR OWN.

Harry Readinger
9 December 2004
The Morality of the War in Iraq​
The United States chose to invade Iraq for many reasons; the September eleventh tragedy, the apparent buildup of weapons of mass destruction, the barbarism Saddam Hussein exhibited towards his people, and the harboring of many terrorist factions. Alone, each of these reasons is justification for retribution. There have been a lot of conflicting opinions regarding the motives of our country’s leaders and their decisions for engaging Iraq. As a result, our country has become divided. Wherever you go you hear people speaking passionately about the morality and/or immorality regarding the conflict in Iraq. It has become a political hot potato. We are attempting to achieve democracy for a part of the world that has never experienced anything but dictatorships and theocracies. Are we justified in trying to impose this almost uniquely European system into the Middle Eastern culture? It is the belief of the terrorist Muslim factions that the Koran teaches the annihilation of Western influence. Where is the morality in the religion that preaches death and destruction? Let us examine these important questions, look at the opposing views, and see where the church might take us, and facts might separate us.
The Iraq war is unlike any other war. It is a conflict with invisible adversaries and faceless opponents. On one side there is the United States army, clearly identifiable, and on the other a multitude of Islamic terrorist factions. This confrontation is dissimilar from any other as the American troops do not know who they are fighting until they find themselves within the crosshairs of the enemy guns. The Geneva Convention, which took place in an effort to civilize modern warfare, stipulates soldiers must wear uniforms. The terrorists are not wearing uniforms. The rules of the Geneva Convention do not exist on the battlefields of Iraq. How are the armed forces of the US supposed to engage in the ‘correctness’ of war if the other side is not playing by the rules? This new kind of warfare, according to our global laws of war, is illegal. One side is not playing fair. When I was a kid playing with other children we had rules for the games we played. If someone broke a rule or made up their own as the game went along to suit their needs we considered that to be cheating and not playing fairly. These were and still are learned reactions to the teachings of our parents and the Church. The Ten Commandments clearly state that we should not lie, or deceive others to further our own needs. Why does the US have to follow the rules when the insurgents do not?
Conversely it is our aim to democratize a nation that knows nothing of democracy. Through this process we are teaching the Iraqis a whole new game. In the New York Times article “An Islamic Democracy for Iraq?†they address exactly this issue. It asks the question, is democracy the best solution for Iraq? To answer that we must see what kind of government Iraq implemented before the United States invaded. Iraq has never had any experience with democracy. Saddam Hussein was the ultimate ruler in a dictatorship. As is the case with many dictatorships, Saddam silenced any one who spoke against him and used fear to keep people in line. Very few Iraqis remember their country being governed any other way. They know no other form of government, so can we go in their and change their methods overnight? That would be like China coming to the United States and telling us that in the morning we would become a communist country because it is “better†then our current system. How would the United States react to such a claim? The possible reactions are debatable but it stands true that our system of democracy is proven to be more stable then dictatorships in general. As an American, I have known no governing system save democracy. It is my belief that imposing a democracy onto Iraq is the right thing to do. It will allow Iraq to flourish as a nation. In a democracy the wealth of a nation is spread out rather evenly, as opposed to a dictatorship, in which the dictator tends to keep more then his share of his countries money for himself. Over the twentieth century, the bloodiest in human history, almost all of the major abuses of political power have come from dictatorships. Communism alone over the last century has killed over 60 million people, enough to fill 600 Rose Bowls. Yet dictatorships still exist today, many are based off of “religionâ€, which serves as a good excuse for political abuses. In the end, can a democracy succeed in Iraq, a country that has never before known secular government? Iraq has, before the times of Saddam Hussein, been ruled by Islamic law. They have never seen a just government that did not make its decisions strictly based off of religious principles. Is it moral of us to take away their religious governing system, when the United States believes that the only way to build a successful government is to keep religion and government separated?
Apart from the change in government, another reason we went to war was to eradicate terrorists that were hiding out in Iraq. One concern in fighting terrorism was, what exactly terrorism was. Is terrorism just a crime that incites fear into people? If that is true then any violent crime is terrorism. Is terrorism a crime committed by a person labeled as a terrorist? No, if it was then when Osama Bin Laden jay walks, it is considered an act of terrorism. Terrorism is not about the people who were killed. Its main aim is to incite a feeling of alarm through a community, or society. This form of “warfare†is not only illegal, but exceedingly immoral. In the newspaper, when it shows that eight Iraqi police officers have been killed by a suicide bomber, the real goal of terrorism is realized. Their biggest victory is getting a headline in a major American news source. The blatant disregard of life is beyond any moral reasoning. Any moral being would condemn the acts of these terrorists
“The shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep's throat, for which the sheep thanks the shepherd as a liberator, while the wolf denounces him for the same act as the destroyer of liberty (Bennett).†This is exactly how terrorists attempt to show the United States as an international thug. As a country that can not mind its own business. When the United States went into Iraq, it went in with the intentions of a regime change, and to eradicate terrorism. We went to liberate Iraq. The terrorists, many of which are anti-American and anti-democracy, cringe at the idea of having a government established in which one person can not be in total control. A democracy lessens the opportunity for “religious†violence without punishment. To try to neutralize the United States savior figure, they make the case that America actually disrupted the peace of Iraq. The terrorists say that the dictatorship was ruling Iraq peacefully, until the United States came in and disrupted that peace. This is a total fabrication. The United States certainly made Iraq temporarily more violent, but in the long run Iraq has been made more peaceful, benefiting all countries.
When I started writing this paper I had a strong belief that the war in Iraq was not only beneficial for the Unites States, but also Iraq, and also a fully moral decision. Upon the completion of this paper I had my doubts as to the moral implications of this war. Not that the United Sates went for selfish reasons, but that it went for reasons that may not have been, in the long-run, fully beneficial for Iraq. The change in government is a big issue for me. Even though I support democracy, we are imposing it on a country that has almost always been ruled directly by religious people. Morally we can not impose our standards onto another country. However the expulsion of Saddam Hussein was one of the redeeming moral issues of the war in Iraq. With Saddam gone, Iraq has its first opportunity in a very long time to allow its true self to show.
 

Tipsy

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It is the belief of the terrorist Muslim factions that the Koran teaches the annihilation of Western influence. Where is the morality in the religion that preaches death and destruction?
First off, the belief that the Quran teaches the anhilation of Western influence, or anyone for that matter is absurd. This is another example our American media exaggerating stories and filling in the blanks to fit their perspective. Once of the Islamic virtues is tolerance, which has quite an obvious meaning. Second, if you are referring to Jihad, it is a word that has been changed by our American media. If you asked a typical American what Jihad was, they would probably immediately respond holy war or something similar to it. Jihad does not mean that. Jihad is the struggle to do the right thing, so in a technical standpoint we are using an American Jihad, meaning the Bush administration is doing what they think is the right thing.

The Ten Commandments clearly state that we should not lie, or deceive others to further our own needs. Why does the US have to follow the rules when the insurgents do not?
First off, I ask why you ask why the United States needs to follow the ten commandments when soon after you after completely contradict yourself. You ask "In the end, can a democracy succeed in Iraq, a country that has never before known secular government?", talking about a secular government when before that you talk about the United States following the ten commandments.

A democracy lessens the opportunity for “religious†violence without punishment.
Democracies also lessen the freedoms of specific religion.

The Geneva Convention, which took place in an effort to civilize modern warfare, stipulates soldiers must wear uniforms. The terrorists are not wearing uniforms. The rules of the Geneva Convention do not exist on the battlefields of Iraq.
I would like to respond to this with another quote of yours. You say, "That would be like China coming to the United States and telling us that in the morning we would become a communist country because it is “better†then our current system.". Guess what, we just did that to Iraq.

As an American, I have known no governing system save democracy. It is my belief that imposing a democracy onto Iraq is the right thing to do. It will allow Iraq to flourish as a nation. In a democracy the wealth of a nation is spread out rather evenly, as opposed to a dictatorship, in which the dictator tends to keep more then his share of his countries money for himself.
The question you need to ask yourself is what are their priorities. Unlike throughout many other regions of the world, the Middle East has stayed more devout as a general population than the rest of the world. The priority of many Muslims is religion first and then allowing the other things of which you speak.
 
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