Tipsy wrote:
To make this fit under international I point out the United Nation’s Declaration of Human Rights (as in the rights a human has):
Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.
Now lets take the most important part of that. The most important part bieng of w
ho it covers. Taking that part from your quote:
"THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society"
and later "both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction."
So which with those, rights are for those who fall under these catagories:
1)All people and all nations.
2)Every individual
3)Every organ of society
Than also:
A)Members of the states
B)Members of other territories
So is a fetus a person?
some specifics that make it a person:
Bieng an individual. A fetus fails at bieng an individual. It is not existing as a distinct entity. It is not separate. The fetus for most does not have a consciousness. In no way shape or form does it have any "sense of its identity, attitudes, beliefs, or characteristics." The fetus is not aware of its situation. It doesn't know the creation of it was started from the fathers sperm, or the mothers egg. The fetus never came to a conclusion in thinking it was inside of a women, and would be for another 9 months.
"Bieng a living human"
It is alive, but the fetus is a potential human. We know this because the word "Potential" is exactly what the embryo/fetus is doing, untill it is given birth to 9 months later.
(Incase you do not know what it means:The inherent ability or capacity for growth, development, or coming into being."
If it was already a complete human, there would be no reason for it to depend on a mothers womb. (Incase your thinking of arguing (Again) about a fetus just like a child is growing..Stop.. It does not depend on its mothers womb like a fetus does. It is not attached to an "umbilical cord" like a fetus is. The fetus is soly depending on that umbilical cord transporting nourishment to the fetus, and remove its waste. Do you know any children who depend on such a tube that is attached to their mother to give them nourishment, and also remove the childs waste? Any teenagers? Or even an adult? Untill you do, this argument fails)
So the fetus is now alive in the process to become a human that would not depend on what it previously did.
Human genetics
The fetus will have the human genetic structure of DNA before it is given birth to. The fact alone that the genetic human structure of DNA is not the only thing that makes it a "Living human" though.
When a persons finger gets cut off, that finger still shares this same identical human genetic structure of DNA. The finger shows to be still alive and able to function in many cases after bieng re-attached. (So if the only classification of a human is its DNA structure, than this finger is a living human. If it would be a living human, than it should have rights to. The man should be put on trial for the crime. That is to say, that anything with the human structure DNA is a living human.)
This example proves one of two things.
A)A living human can not be classified as having Identical human DNA structure
only.
Or
B)You need to be arrested and put to trial if you are at fault if your finger(Other part of your Human DNA structure) gets cut off. After all, it is living, it can die, it shares the same human DNA structure.
Moving on. Somthing else that makes it a person:
People have characteristics of an Individual personality. Does your fetus love a great comedy? Does it prefere the blue hat over the red one? No, obviously it doesnt, because it has not developed a full personality yet. Sure it can have a potential personality, but not a full personality.
Another thing that makes it a person:
Physical appearance of the human body. As it keeps growing it becomes to look more and more like a human. It wasn't always that way though. Used to look like that dot you drew on your notepad last week. Iv never seen a human that looked like that.
Every fetus has an umbilical cord right?
Well I sure can't remember the last time I seen a human walking around with an umbilical cord attached to it. Can you remember the last time you did? You know the reason you can't remember? Because you never seen one that did.
So many physical changes take place on it from when it first starts out, untill it grows and is given birth. But it did not appear as a human when it was first conceived. Atleast not untill it developed to become a complete human bieng.
Humans are also individuals. We went threw this before and we know it is in no way an individual. Atleast not yet.
These are things all living human biengs that are people have incommon. Out of these a fetus only shares its Human DNA Structure. It is not yet a person. It is still a Potential human, that has potential to be born, and potential to grow older, and potential to graduate from highschool, and potential to live to 80. And lastly it has potential to get human rights. It just doesn't have any of them now.
Secondly your "THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS" applies to all humans in "all nations"
The fetus is not a human yet (Potential human yes) A human, and a potential human are not the same thing. So they should not have the same rights. Reguardless of jurisdiction, weather or not it was international or in New York, they still would have to be a human first. Once it developed into a human with its own consciousness and is in its own entity without depending on its mothers umbilical cord, than it would have rights. As long as it is dependant on its host (The mothers womb) it should have no rights.
Now lets look at the other parts of this law it grants the rights to:
2)Every individual
I already went threw why a fetus is not an individual in no way shape or form. This has got to be atleast the one aspect that no one can say anything different with.
So this part of the law can not be ment for the fetus.
3)Every organ of society
Clearly the fetus is not a part of society at this stage. So this part of the law can not be ment for a fetus either.
Than also:
A)Members of the states
B)Members of other territories
We heard arguments both if it has government rights as a citizen, or if that should even matter. One side states that citizenship would not apply to the fetus. The other side says citizenship does not matter, what matters is the rights all humans should have. So im not going to go about the members of other states, or other territories.
However if you think it should have rights, you are entitled to your own opinion. Only difference from the opinion is that as of now it doesn't have these rights. And it should not be changed.
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NOW FOR THE MYTH AND FACTS PAGE
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Fact 1: As pointed out above in the background section, there is a radical difference, scientifically, between parts of a human being that only possess "human life" and a human embryo or human fetus that is an actual "human being." Abortion is the destruction of a human being. Destroying a human sperm or a human oocyte would not constitute abortion, since neither are human beings. The issue is not when does human life begin, but rather when does the life of every human being begin. A human kidney or liver, a human skin cell, a sperm or an oocyte all possess human life, but they are not human beings — they are only parts of a human being. If a single sperm or a single oocyte were implanted into a woman's uterus, they would not grow; they would simply disintegrate.
Fact one of your "Myths page" has numerious flaws:
#1 bieng when they call a Fetus a Human being. If it was a human being, it would have the same rights a human being had. However fact #1 should be added to the myth section. Because a fetus is a potential human being.
Fact 2: As demonstrated above, the human embryonic organism formed at fertilization is a whole human being, and therefore it is not just a "blob" or a "bunch of cells." This new human individual also has a mixture of both the mother's and the father's chromosomes, and therefore it is not just a "piece of the mother's tissues". Quoting Carlson:
one of your "Myths page" next flaw:
Besides the fact it calls the fetus a "human" again, it than also adds individual. There is no possible way that a fetus can be any sort of an individual. It has its uniqe DNA sure, but that does not mean its an individual.
Individual means Existing as a distinct entity; separate. Especially a single human: A fetus is inside the mother. Its attached to her. If its attached inside to the mother, it can't possibly be a single human. If it is not a singe human and not seperated, it can not possibly be an individual!
Fact #3 is where its biggest problem is so far: (Could be a bigger one, I am only on #3)
Myth 3: "The immediate product of fertilization is just a 'potential' or a 'possible' human being — not a real existing human being."
Now lets hear their fact.
Fact 3: As demonstrated above, scientifically there is absolutely no question whatsoever that the immediate product of fertilization is a newly existing human being. A human zygote is a human being. It is not a "potential" or a "possible" human being. It's an actual human being — with the potential to grow bigger and develop its capacities.
Fact #3 is not a fact. If it was a fact that "absolutely no question whatsoever" (Obviously their is huge question, which makes this absurd) "immediate product of fertilization is a newly existing human being" Than add it is a human being-with potential to grow bigger, and develop.
one of your "Myths page" next flaw:
If it was a fact that it was a human, than it would be a fact that it had the same rights all humans have. Sense it is false a Fetus has the same rights a "Human" would have, than it could not possibly be a "Human"
Than adds on the human has potential to grow bigger and develop.
If the human had potential to grow bigger, that would mean that it does not occure 100%. If a human did not grow, and develop than it would be the size of a fetus forever. Do any of you work with humans that are the size of fetus's? Im sure one of you must have a neighbor the size of a fetus. I mean if a fetus is a human, but doesnt have to grow, or develop, it just has the potential, than there must be fetus's in our society!
Oh I guess we don't. Wonder why. Mabie it is because a fetus is developing and growing so it can be a full human, but as of now is only a potential human.
(Do we stick a pinecone in the ground and call it a Pine Tree? No, Its a pinecone with potential to become a pine tree-Not a pine tree that looks exactly like a pinecone with potential to grow)
Fact #4 agian presents nothing new:
Fact 4: As all human embryologists know, a single-cell human zygote, or a more developed human embryo, or human fetus is a human being — and that that's the way they are supposed to look at those particular periods of development.
It took an embyrologist to figure out a fetus looks like a fetus because thats what it is supposed to look like at that period?
So if all the embyrologist know that at all stages it is a human being, why don't they share their genious findings (along with what a fetus is supposed to look like-{Almost kept a straight face there}) and explain that to the supreme court. Ofcourse just them stating it doesn't make it so. They would have to prove it to the supreme court. So why havn't they? I am sure it wasn't just discovered last tuesday was it? Especially sense they "All" know this.
Alot of the next few myths and facts cover how long untill implantation takes. Or untill there is a pre-embryo. But sense our member asked not to find when "Life starts" But rather "Is it a human, I will skip these.
also some fall under the same principle and idea. Like #11 for example:
Myth 11: "Certain early stages of the developing human embryo and fetus, e.g., during the formation of ancestral fish gills or tails, demonstrates that it is not yet a human being, but is only in the process of becoming one. It is simply 'recapitulating' the historical evolution of all of the species."
Fact 11: This "scientific" myth is yet another version of the "potential," "possible," "pre-embryo" myths. It is an attempt to deny the early human embryo its real identity as a human being and its real existence. But quoting once again from O'Rahilly:
Fact #11 is not a proven fact. It is not a human being when its an embryo, fetus, pre embryo. The reason is all of its potential, and possible outcome, and a chance at life all depends on the mother and her womb. No born child, teenager, adult, or old man depends on their mothers womb in the hopes of anything. Only the pre-embryo/embryo/fetus must have the womb for the potential to become.
Fact #12 states:
fact the embryo begins as a "developmental individual" at fertilization.
The embryo is obviously going to start its development and growth state, but is not an individual which has been stated numerious times. (Existing as a distinct entity; separate) Obviously can not be separate if it lives inside a womb of a woman attaced by an umbilical cord. How would bieng attached physically by a cord to keep you surviving, while living inside it count as existing separate?
Than onto an important one:
Myth 14: "A 'person' is defined in terms of the active exercising of 'rational attributes' (e.g., thinking, willing, choosing, self-consciousness, relating to the world around one, etc.), and/or the active exercising of 'sentience' (e.g., the feeling of pain and pleasure)."
(Half of this myth is complete guarbadge. Only reason it is here is to bring in an example of a 40 year old person that doesn't have one of these. So if he is only considered human with it, but doesn't have it, he shouldn't have rights too.
Which I am sure you would bring up sense my argument depends on this. However I would not say a person is defined by all of these. Especially not "exercising" certin attributes People have different issues with the spinal cord not allowing to feel anything in many areas. So how I determined a human, and how myth 14 did, are completly different.
Especially than your website argues this assnine view.
What would this mean for the following list of adult human beings with diminished "rational attributes": e.g., the mentally ill, the mentally retarded, the depressed elderly, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's patients, drug addicts, alcoholics — and for those with diminished "sentience," e.g., the comatose, patients in a "vegetative state," paraplegics, and other paralyzed and disabled patients, diabetics or other patients with nerve or brain damage, etc.? Would they then be considered as only human beings but not also as human persons?
Sense when did human beings that are people with issues as follow Depend on their umbilical cord, and mothers womb to survive after they were born?
mentally ill,
mentally retarded,
depressed elderly,
Alzheimer's,
Parkinson's,
drug addicts,
alcoholics,
comatose,
patients in a "vegetative state,"
paraplegics,
other paralyzed and disabled patients,
diabetics
so the next part of the "Fact" (Funny the way this site uses it) says: Would that mean that they would not have the same ethical and legal rights and protections as those adult human beings who are considered as persons?
Sense both are considered to be living human beings with rights, I will ignore that complete idiotic sentence.