Yet another WW2 thread

[dreamcrusader]

They wernt as good as the Mustangs that we had towards the end of the war

 

[Darkblade Shadows]

Soviet Union obviously had the biggest role in the European theatre, while I'll have to say that the Australians had the biggest role in holding out the Japanese in the Pacific theatre.

IF the Japs would have taken Australia, then America would've been screwed. Haha.
If it wasn't for the infighting within the Nazi's command, they would've won the Eastern Front.

And you can blame it all on Hitler for the defeat of Germany, as he took command of the invasion.

 

[Ashigaru]

Giving command to the generals would have been a wise choice, as they had to wait for the ok to move troops. One example being that a general, don’t remember the name, wanted to move his unit of panzer for a counter-attack after d-day but couldn’t because Hitler was unreachable.

 

[dreamcrusader]

Soviet Union obviously had the biggest role in the European theatre, while I'll have to say that the Australians had the biggest role in holding out the Japanese in the Pacific theatre.

IF the Japs would have taken Australia, then America would've been screwed. Haha.
If it wasn't for the infighting within the Nazi's command, they would've won the Eastern Front.

And you can blame it all on Hitler for the defeat of Germany, as he took command of the invasion.

So flawed I wont even waste my time.

 

[Tipsy]

In case you had forgotten those beaches were under heavy bombing before the invasion, more troops on the wall would have made little difference.

The troops on the ground were just one of many factors. Add in the soliders that were in the Lufwaffe, and everything. I am not talking about just ground troops, you have to put in every single resource that was used against the Soviet Union shifted to pushing the d-day landing force right back into the sea and against the allies.

They had enough troops already, just not a proper coordinations in the command structure of the generals in charge of the defence. An interesting note, the british where sending secret signals on a channel (the BBC I believe) to the french resistence, in order for them to coordinate their sabotage effort with the D-Day invasion. Thing is, a branche of the german intelligence had figured out the code, yet the guy in charge of said intelligence branche was apparently either a patheticly lazy moron, or a brilliant traitor, because he managed to dismiss, and hide this information to his superiors.

The guy dismissed it because he thought the allies were never going to attack with the weather conditions on that day. Also, continuing on the leadership thing, there was also a manditory training session that took away much of the German leadership on the northern Atlantic Wall.

Actually your wrong. Other than the Panzar tanks and motorized divisions Germany was nothing compared to American technology. Try and counter my points with german ones that were massed produced.

Key words in this are 'massed produced'. The Germans in more than one way were decades ahead of the west in technology. For example, the whole 'wing-shaped' + 'stealth' airplane design comes from a nazi plane that was captured at the end of the war.

And do we even need to compare the Navys of the 2? Sure the U-boats were amazing but they were nothing towards the end of the war compared to our fleet.

How about the Bismark? I don't see any of our ships that matches it (above water).

And what about Americas industrail influence with the quanity of supplys to fuel our advancements. And do I even need to mentian the "nuke"

Well let's look at this nuke. First, look at Otto Hahn. He invented the entire field of fission in physics and recieved the Nobel Peace prize for it. Then let's look at the seperating of U-235 from natural Uranium. The Germans invented thermal difussion to do this. The idea of the nuclear chain reaction to create a atomic bomb wasn't even thought up by an American. To go even farther, many of the brilliant minds who worked on the Manhatten Project weren't even Americans. The scientists who worked for the Nazis, a lot of them did not even want to make a bomb, and many Germans were outraged by even the idea. You can look at Otto Hahn, who didn't even work on the atomic bomb project who wanted to kill himself because of what his discovery was creating. We may have 'used' the bomb, but the Germans were the ones who invented the entire field of science. Don't tell me that we invented this 'atomic bomb' just because we dropped two bombs on Japan. The bomb would not have been possible to concieve without German science.

 

[Ashigaru]

They may have been invented by german scientist but created by Germany they werent. I believe scientist left Germany to come to the US because they feared or did not support hitler.

 

[Tipsy]

They may have been invented by german scientist but created by Germany they werent. I believe scientist left Germany to come to the US because they feared or did not support hitler.

As for leaving because they feared or did not support Hitler, that is only partially true. The majority of the scientists that left Germany were Jews, and there were plenty of the so called 'aryan scientists' left in Germany. For example, Heisenberg was both not in support of Hitler and feared Hitler, he was even at one time had his reputation attacked, and would have been thrown into a concentration camp if his mom did not know the mother of Himmler who put in a good word for him. There was actually only one scientist in Hitler's uranium club that actually wanted Hitler to win the war. The others stayed because they believed the war was only going to last one year, a bomb in their opinion could not be made in that short period of time, and the new discovery of secondary neutrons coming out of U-235 when it was bombarded could provide a power source for post-war Germany. There was also the fact that they wanted to protect the young physicists of Germany because they wished that German physics not be destroyed in the war and could be fixed after. As for many of the scientists who fled Germany, if you have read their accounts, they begged Heisenberg to come to America and even got jobs offered for him, but he refused because he wanted to protect science in Germany and they also said that Heisenberg would be the one man in all of Germany to make the bomb for Germany.

As for a bomb not being created in Germany, there is evidence that some of the scientists in the uranium club actually sabotaged the nazi efforts to make a bomb. (Evidence from the Farm Hall Transcripts)

 

[Kuzmich]

None of the Allied forces would have won without the others. Russia wouldnt have won without the other front and neither would the Britis or the Americans. It was a combined effort that beat the Germans.

Actually i have to disagree, USSR and US would probably be able to win on their own.

Also in response to what i read from dream crusader. No you didn't have better technology, atleast not in most cases, but you had so much of the production and resource advantage over the Germans that they didn't stand a chance all the same. Germans had better tanks (well better then yours, the only tank better then T-34 and KV-1 was the King Tiger, less then a thousand produced), better planes (they had the world's first jet fighter, less then 2000 produced), better machine guns (German gun had almost twice the rate of fire then that off American or Russian equivalent) and so on. As for Japanese, yes you did have a technological edge in that case your guns shot faster, your planes flew faster and carried more load, your ships had better firing range. Add to that the fact that the Japanese did not believe in using artillery, you were better then them in every aspect including numbers.

Also having a technological edge didn't matter as much back then, because a lot of equipment was getting captured by each side. For example Germans had T-34 PanzerWaggen, whole divisions of them, and Soviet soldiers prefered German Shmauzer sub-machine gun over PPSH, because there were plenty catridges of Shmauzer lying around and not that many PPSH catridges were given to them.

 

[TheJanitor]

Errr how come one mentions how much Britain did . I could say... Britain affected the war the most because we invented the machine guns and tanks, and fighters in the first place but….. Errr someone said that the spitfire was American.... sure they mass produced the mustang for us (which they couldn’t of done so easily if we didn’t show them how to make planes with jigs making mass production easily and planes easier to repair because planes weren’t different sizes) but there were pretty shit at first until the Brits but the rolls Royce in it then the yanks caught on . The Britain didn't sacrifice nearly as much as Germany but what we did we made count. I mean squadrons of as little 20 men killing thousands of Germans and destroying hundreds of planes is 'making it count'. There is a reason why Hitler didn’t consider fighting the British, Twice during the war, in 1940 and 1942, he tried to get the British to call the war off and offered very fair peace treaties to this end. He believed that they were a part of the Aryan race.

No way could Britain of beaten German alone, so I hope no one misunderstands that, I know I’m being very biased but not many people know much about Britain’s major role in the war. They did pretty well considering they were in the war from the beginning and didn’t have much time to prepare. Britain did **** up with a few strategies at first but so did everyone. I believe they made their men count more than any other major role. Britain organized the French resistance, they were the launching point of D-day, they decrypted German coded messages (priceless advantage and it wasn’t the Americans who sized the enigma machine unlike a certain movie would have you believe), sunk Bismarck, defeated the threat of u-boats(allowed help from the Americans to reach Britain easier), won the battle of Britain (if Britain had given up D-day would of never happened) this was easier with the radar we invented…. British pilots killed the most experienced of the Luftwaffe, making it easier for the Russians when the Germans cut its losses and foolishly switched to the eastern front. Even though America was neutral and Russia at treaty with the Germans Britain was far from alone. Supplies from America and Canada were vital so were the pilots that would come later.

Like the Russians the British were also patriotic, not giving up against a seemingly unstoppable army when given a chance of an ‘honorable peace’. London was flattened many times by over 18 thousand tones worth of bombs but the British public didn’t falter and kept working to keep Britain in the war and overcome the Germans. Another thing I admire is some of the ingenious and unconventional tactics of the British. The whole Desert rats and sad projects inspired many special forces and formed many of their tactics alone. One clever tactic by the RAF:
“In July 1943, on a raid over Hamburg, planes dropped thousands of strips of aluminum foil, codenamed Window. The strips fluttered down, creating a mass of reflections on German radar screens which made it difficult to distinguish the bombers and gave them an easy run on target.â€
There is also the famous tactic involving Lancaster bombers equipped with the ‘bouncing bomb’ that would become the ‘dambusters’, the successful attempt to sabotage the no industrial heart of Germany, 20,000 men were moved off the Atlantic wall to repair the damage. The propaganda value for this was huge.

Ill go on about Britains role more late but I need a moron to post first for inspiration .

 

[Kuzmich]

On a personal note i must say that your posting is hard to read because your avatar keeps attracting attention. Not that its a bad thing.

Now about Britain. The front you done most on was purhapse the African front. You have mentioned Desert Rats, i believe they were one of the key factors in allied victory over the area. Britain also served as a foot hold for American bombing raids and the D-day invasion.

In my opinion role of Britain was great, however not exceeding the role of USSR and US in its greatness. I have not much more to say really, you basically said it yourself.

 

[Zerglite]

what about all the lil countries that helped.. cant forget them

china... canada.... india... all of them

theres more, but im too lazy to check

 

[Kuzmich]

China was defeated by the Japs, of course they did have resistance movement but if China helped then so did France. New Zealand was also one, plus like half of all the African countries

Now let me thrown in my two-cents on german nuclear bomb program. It was canceled in 1939 if i am not mistaken (might be 1938) by Hitler. And even then they picked the wrong path in making a nuke, instead of enriched Uranium they planned to use Heavy Water, so called dirty-bombs, but that project was cancelled because Hitler decided that it was needed. It was reopened in 1943 but by then it was already too late. Germany lacked resources and safe locations to conduct the experiments.

A minumum critical mass of Uranium is around 25 kgs, the minumum critical mass of Heavy Water is measured in tons. Dirty bomb was simply not a way to go. Although it would spread much more radiation. I am not really sure how they were planning on using heavy water to get nuclear fission anyways.

 

[Homem mAIOR]

I say Russia had the most important role look at the sacrifices they made!!! They scorched their own homes and made some heroic charges against the germans!! They produced 40000 tanks alone to the battle of kursk to withstand against the Tiger II, King Tiger and Pazer Mk.V Wich really crushed them all!!! When Russia realeazed the T34, one, destroyed 8 german Panzer Mk.III before it was taken out by a daring German 88 gun at point blank!!
When the germans released the Panzer Mk.V, one, destroyed 28 out of 34 russians T34 hence forcing the tanks to withdraw!!
When you say that if the D-day didn't ocorred we'd be speaking german actually, we'd be speaking russian!!!
So, Russia won the war.
Oh and when you say russia didn't have any economy, well for some reason, russia was the worlds 2nd economical potency when the war ended!!

 

[Ashigaru]

If it wasn't for the western front Russia would have been crushed, even Stalin knew that. Fighting to a pointless death is heroic? thats a new one...

 

[Homem mAIOR]

No it wouldn't... when hitler attacked russia(in mid-summer) he expected to conquer it till winter... he didn't. And, due to the difference in railway tracks, he couldn't send supplies to frontline troops...wich caused his frontline troops to die because of the cold... the ground waas frozen until 2m deep... the resistance blowed away bridges and stuff halting the germans supply lines and reinforcements for weeks... they scorched their own lands so that the germans could not find anything... Even if the western front did not exist, Hitler timming was bad... his troops did not managed trough the winter. The only thing that held them so long was the quallity of their equipement...

 

[Ashigaru]

You use spelling and grammar like that and you expect me to take that as a legitimate argument?

http://www.tgplanes.com/query.asp?action=quicklist

Just look at each sides planes and then lets talk about who'd win.

 

[B~E]

If it wasn't for the western front Russia would have been crushed, even Stalin knew that. Fighting to a pointless death is heroic? thats a new one...

Fighting to death is always heroic. In the eyes of the losing side, that is.

 

[Emperor Pan I]

If it wasn't for the western front Russia would have been crushed, even Stalin knew that. Fighting to a pointless death is heroic? thats a new one...

Battle of Stalingrad 1942
D-Day is June 6, 1944

The Battle of Stalingrad when the Red army defeated the Germans and was considered "the turning point of the war" was 2 years before D-Day, which which literaly means th Russian army had defeated and began to push the German army back before the Allies even landed in France.

 

[Ashigaru]

D-Day didn't start the western front. Ever heard of the battle of Britain? :rolleyes

 

[B)ushid(o]

Battle of Stalingrad 1942
D-Day is June 6, 1944

The Battle of Stalingrad when the Red army defeated the Germans and was considered "the turning point of the war" was 2 years before D-Day, which which literaly means th Russian army had defeated and began to push the German army back before the Allies even landed in France.

The Second Battle of El Alamein happened around the same time as Stalingrad and resulted in the decimation of German troops in Africa and paved the way for the landing in Italy.

edit: Not to mention the beginning of the end of German units in Africa.