ChrisH36
Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.
FPS Puzzles Adventure and Strategy, is that enough for you!
And this is why I think you never play fighting games, particularly Soul Calibur 2.pan said:Rock paper scissors does not mean something is a strategy game. RPS, is pure luck, where you have a 33.33~ chance of winning. In a fighting game, you have counters to a mov,e but the game moves far to fast to execute anything to the extent that you do in a strategy game. Strategy games entail a general battle plan, with not only units, but varying other factors. A fighting game is based on nothing more than combos, button mashing and button memorization. There is no set battle plan, you really can't have a battle plan. Characters really arn't diverse to any large extent.
Strategy offers something else. It offers you a before and/or after in which you can see exactly the fallacy in your army, in your overall perform.
What is your point if you agree with what I say? And your equal army crap is pointless because I again, AGREED to that as well. Might I remind you, YOU brought the smaller army can beat larger army example, which I said would make sense, if every factor was not the same.But I never said I disagreed. All I said is that I think your definition blows. It's too ambiguous.
Equal armies, with equal commanders, most times would end in a tie.
How's that saying that the smaller army had a chance has any sense? Your words.Nope. In a perfect situation where all factors are the same except size, the larger army would win.
Speculation, your words hold no value.Revelade said:And this is why I think you never play fighting games, particularly Soul Calibur 2.
As in any fighting game, even super smash bros. Yet you have outlined no reason why it is a strategy game. It is a fighting game like any other, not a strategy game. You make a mental note? that isn's strategy, it's common sense. That is like saying it's strategy to jump in Mario when the enemy fires a fireball at you.When I challenge people, I make a mental note of what character he uses and from there, what moves might work best against him. Take a look at the character Yunsung from SC2. If someone were to choose him, I would not block lows as much. Why? Yunsung has only a handful of low attacks, therefore I can adapt to that.
Where is this coming from SC2? I never once mentioned SC2. I said fighting games. Even then, you still havent a strong arguement anyways, besides a weak ROck paper scissors, and throwing out some useless words no one really cares about. A launcher? who the **** cares.So pan, stop making excuses about SC,
The faster you hit the buttons, the faster you execute moves. You assume button mashing would entail random buttons. It is still a button mashing game even if you know what your hitting. You don't hit 3 buttons ever ten seconds, it's to slow, which means the faster you can do it, and this relates to all fighting games, the better your chances of winning.Just because you think fighting games are all mashing, does not mean it's a fact.
I believe they do.Speculation, your words hold no value.
You are wrong because they are NOT the same games. Soul Calibur 2 has moves that do specific things, while moves in SSBM do not have undoable weaknesses. Example, you can strafe any vertical move, yet not so with a horizontal move in SC2. In SSBM, any move can be dodged or shielded. There's also a third dimension to SC2, unlike SSBM.As in any fighting game, even super smash bros. Yet you have outlined no reason why it is a strategy game. It is a fighting game like any other, not a strategy game. You make a mental note? that isn's strategy, it's common sense. That is like saying it's strategy to jump in Mario when the enemy fires a fireball at you.
Soul Calibur 2. It's more like you don't have a strong argument. SSBM and SC2 are not the same thing. The moves of SSBM do not have the amount of properties the moves of SC2 do. Who the heck cares? You're the one that brought up the issue with combos, which obviously involve throwing people in the air for multiple hits. So what exactly is your point?Where is this coming from SC2? I never once mentioned SC2. I said fighting games. Even then, you still havent a strong arguement anyways, besides a weak ROck paper scissors, and throwing out some useless words no one really cares about. A launcher? who the **** cares.
Sigh. Button mashing is available in all games. The difference is how effective it is. You can button mash in SC2, but that won't get you far. If you mash everything, I'll just mash verticals and I'll win. Why? Verticals are the fastest and strongest attacks, but are countered by sidestepping. Since you are mashing constantly, your character will stay in the same spot. Just as using lurkers versus marines, this counter beats that counter, or STRATEGY.The faster you hit the buttons, the faster you execute moves. You assume button mashing would entail random buttons. It is still a button mashing game even if you know what your hitting. You don't hit 3 buttons ever ten seconds, it's to slow, which means the faster you can do it, and this relates to all fighting games, the better your chances of winning.
Skill>counters. Play warcraft III.Revelade said:There is plenty of strategy in SC2, enough so that random mashing will always be beaten by somebody who knows the counters. Just as throwing 100 marines to a dark templar, counters will beat skill and that is strategy.
Exactly true. For the most part, Rock Paper scissors is a random game of chance. Strategy games never have anything so clear cut as a simple rock paper scissors system.What are you trying to prove? Are you saying that games that have rockpaperscissors aren't strategy?
Now your putting words in my mouth. Starcraft has much mroe than simple rock paper scissors, as do all strategy games, which make them strategy games. It isn't a game about sheer combat, it's an economic decisions. Sure a lurker beats a marine when it's burrowed, but a marine can kill a lucker when it's not.Then are you saying there is no strategy in Starcraft?
Once again your taking leaps and bound in assumptions. Countrstrike like all games have fast action, but it isn't a button masher. Your not mashing the keyboard for combos and button actions. You use the mouse and aim and fire.According to pan's logic, Counter Strike is a button masher, gee.
I have common sense, you obviously don't. You still fail to provide any real arguements, and most of my post you can't even read properly, simply taking out little words.Is your best defense "common sense"? Perhaps you can counter my specific examples?
And did I say any detectors? Holy crap, you missed the point, AGAIN. Let me bring about another example: You have mutalisk, he has zealot. Do I have to repeat myself because you can't understand a simple example?Skill>counters. Play warcraft III.
and 100 marines can easily beat a dark tmplar. It's called detectors.
Which is why SC2 is a strategy game.Exactly true. For the most part, Rock Paper scissors is a random game of chance. Strategy games never have anything so clear cut as a simple rock paper scissors system.
Hmm... JUST like how sidestepping beats vertical attacks in SC2. Thanks for strengthening my point, pan.Now your putting words in my mouth. Starcraft has much mroe than simple rock paper scissors, as do all strategy games, which make them strategy games. It isn't a game about sheer combat, it's an economic decisions. Sure a lurker beats a marine when it's burrowed, but a marine can kill a lucker when it's not.
It's like warcraft III. One Grunt cna beat Two footmen, but three footmen can beat one grunt. A wyvern can beat an grunt, but a grunt and a raider can beat a wyvern.
Which I also said before that micro also plays a part in these games. Good thing you can repeat what I said.Plus, true skill allows for a player to even remove an enemies chance to counter with speed and skill. In Warcraft (I think i'll use warcraft now, since you seem to only use Starcraft, and it's discrimination) A meele unit beats a ranged unit, but with true skill, 3 ranges units can easily beat a meele unit. It isn't rock paper scissors that decide the outcome, it's your strategy and skill which involves your victory.
According to your logic, CS is a button masher. However, you can't fire automatics any faster than holding the button. Why? There's this thing called a cap. Pressing 8 attacks in a second is the same as pressing 9 because of this. Just as 4 SCVs get gas just as fast as 20, there's a limit. Perhaps you are missing the common sense.Repeatedly hitting alot of button in a short period of time o perform moves, etc. Tony Hawks could e a button masher. All fighting gmaes are button mashers. You just don't like to read my post.
Again, you contradict yourself. According to your logic, a button masher is a game where you press buttons in a short period of time to perform moves. I guess tapping the fire button makes CS a button masher right? Your definitions are amazing.Once again your taking leaps and bound in assumptions. Countrstrike like all games have fast action, but it isn't a button masher. Your not mashing the keyboard for combos and button actions. You use the mouse and aim and fire.
Blah, blah, blah. You still haven't proved how fighting games are button mashers because you don't have any examples. Pan, you're going in circles. And it's funny how you say I don't have arguments when you fail to give any examples to prove fighting games don't use strategy. SC2 is a strategy game and I'd like you to prove me wrong.I have common sense, you obviously don't. You still fail to provide any real arguements, and most of my post you can't even read properly, simply taking out little words.
weve done that, weve said it time and time again, listen...SC2 DOES have some strategy in it, we agree on that, im not argueing that there is no strategy. there IS i dont care hpw much you argue, there IS more fighting than strategy in SC2. There IS more strategy than any other form on gameplay in SC2. Thus, classified under Fighting, thus not a "Strategy" based game. IT DOES have strategy, but not as much as fighting. Thus, the given by those with comon sence, the genre.... [glow=red]Revelade said:SC2 is a strategy game and I'd like you to prove me wrong.
SC2 is all about strategy. If you would even play the game, you'd see how every attack has a weakness which is exactly the case with Starcraft or Warcraft 3. Again, I classify it as a strategy game, but you can put it under your "fighting" label as you wish._JaKE said:weve done that, weve said it time and time again, listen...SC2 DOES have some strategy in it, we agree on that, im not argueing that there is no strategy. there IS i dont care hpw much you argue, there IS more fighting than strategy in SC2. There IS more strategy than any other form on gameplay in SC2. Thus, classified under Fighting, thus not a "Strategy" based game. IT DOES have strategy, but not as much as fighting. Thus, the given by those with comon sence, the genre.... [glow=red]FIGHTING[/glow]
gg stfu lol?
Except you never make any sense. No one will ever jsut have a zealot, or just a mutalisk. This in no way relates to Soul Caliber. Stop going back to your obscure references.Revelade said:And did I say any detectors? Holy crap, you missed the point, AGAIN. Let me bring about another example: You have mutalisk, he has zealot. Do I have to repeat myself because you can't understand a simple example?
I say RPS is not strategy, you harpe on about how SCII is rock paper scissors, and now say in response to me the reason SCII is a strategy is becuse RPS isn't about strategy.Which is why SC2 is a strategy game.
That doesn't make any sense, jsut like you. Strengthing your point? in what world do you live in. There are no direct counters in WCIII like I said, nothing clear cut. In SCII Sidestepping beats verticals fine, if that were in WCIII then it would be more like sidesteps beat verticals, but verticals can be used in more numbers to beat sidesteps.Hmm... JUST like how sidestepping beats vertical attacks in SC2. Thanks for strengthening my point, pan.
Well, considering I have explained it in two posts what button mashing is, and you have failed to grasp the most basic concepts, I will not even bother to explain it now. but if you can pick up a dictionary, maybe you can go back and figure out what it actualy means. In other words, your wrong and probably retarded.According to your logic, CS is a button masher. However, you can't fire automatics any faster than holding the button. Why? There's this thing called a cap. Pressing 8 attacks in a second is the same as pressing 9 because of this. Just as 4 SCVs get gas just as fast as 20, there's a limit. Perhaps you are missing the common sense.
My definitions? its the standard definition. Except you have it wrong, and try to twist it in a way to make me look stupid. Learn to read, go back and you might learn something.Again, you contradict yourself. According to your logic, a button masher is a game where you press buttons in a short period of time to perform moves. I guess tapping the fire button makes CS a button masher right? Your definitions are amazing.
I have various times. Read through my posts. Your best arguement is Rock paper scissors. Thats wrong and I shot that down fast. Then you go on about some other bullshit about SC yadda yadda. In SCII you dont do anyhting but punch and kick, thus it is a fighting game. Sorry, no amount of counters to anyhting makes it a strategy game. It makes it more of a fighting game, since you use fighting to defeat the opponent. Just as chess is a strategy game, but your pieces are only as good as the strategy, while in SCII your character is only as good as the moves performed, which can be in any way. when SCII allows you to build hundreds of units, gather recources, use military tactics ot even to use a few given pieces to outperform your opponent, then it may be considered a Strategy game.Blah, blah, blah. You still haven't proved how fighting games are button mashers because you don't have any examples. Pan, you're going in circles. And it's funny how you say I don't have arguments when you fail to give any examples to prove fighting games don't use strategy. SC2 is a strategy game and I'd like you to prove me wrong.
Revelade said:SC2 is all about strategy. If you would even play the game, you'd see how every attack has a weakness which is exactly the case with Starcraft or Warcraft 3. Again, I classify it as a strategy game, but you can put it under your "fighting" label as you wish.
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Nice definitions. Here's mine.bamthedoc said:Words.
Again, how hard is it to picture a marine fighting a dark templar or a mutalisk fighting a zealot? Perhaps you need to play SC some more, if this is too hard for you.pan said:Yawn.
Brilliance.In other words, your wrong and probably retarded.
Yep, just because Bush said there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, that means he's obviously right. Except he wasn't._JaKE said:Whine.
That's not a reflex. A reflex is a reaction to an action.Revelade said:Reflex: the player is rewarded on how fast he executes a certain ability. If you do this ability better than the other player, you win. Games in this area are Counter Strike, F-Zero, DDR.
A strategy game is just that, utilization of a strategy. A strategy is the method of attaining the goal (ex: defeat of an opponent in StarCraft through ling rush, defeat of an opponent in SC2 through defensive-play). A strategy game doesn't necessarily require an RPS system.every strategy game has RPS... A spore colony will kill a mutalisk, a mutalisk will kill a zealot, a zealot kills a spore colony. I guess Starcraft's not a strategy game. Great definition.
Role-Playing Game. Not anywhere in there does it say the character has to be "living" the life of the person. The gamer just assumes the role of the character(s). Thus, playing a role - "role-playing".RPG: Nope, not those games like FF7 or such. Role playing is what it is, playing a role. Common misconception is it has to be a combat game. Well GUESS WHAT. Not every person that exists fights. Role playing is LIVING the life of a person, not fighting enemies which has confused the average gamer. Games in this category are The Sims, Harvest Moon and Animal Crossing.
I never said that a game can't have more than one characteristic. A game like SC2 does have reflex usage in it such as guard impacting at a certain time. However, reflex games concentrate on a particular skill. Whether it's aiming with CS, steering with Gran Turismo or matching with DDR. You are REACTING to a situation. Want some examples? You spot an enemy in CS; you are REACTING and aiming at him, then firing. You see a turn coming in Gran Turismo; you are REACTING and steer to the side. You see a left arrow coming in DDR; you are REACTING and you time the left arrow.B)ushid(o said:That's not a reflex. A reflex is a reaction to an action.
What I'm concerned about right now are human reflexes (ex: a ball thrown at a man and his reaction to it). Fighting games, whether it's SSBM or SC2, utilize reflexes. Your opponent does a move, you block, jump, guard, or whatever. If your reaction time's too slow, you get hit. Thus, reflexes. Fighting games utilize reflexes.
Without an RPS system, you are saying that a player can have an ability no unit can counter. This is why zerglings come in pairs. This is why archons only have shields. Every unit has a COUNTER and that is the basis of the RPS system. Name a strategy game where an ability, unit, whatever can not be countered. Prove me wrong.A strategy game is just that, utilization of a strategy. A strategy is the method of attaining the goal (ex: defeat of an opponent in StarCraft through ling rush, defeat of an opponent in SC2 through defensive-play). A strategy game doesn't necessarily require an RPS system.
That's the same thing. Your definition works for when you are playing a role of a class such as a soldier, a farmer, aka a vage term. When you are playing the role of George, Vincent, etc., then it's specific to the point where you ARE that person.Role-Playing Game. Not anywhere in there does it say the character has to be "living" the life of the person. The gamer just assumes the role of the character(s). Thus, playing a role - "role-playing".
Revelade said:SC2 has nothing to do with reflexes.
Eh? Which one is it?A game like SC2 does have reflex usage in it such as guard impacting at a certain time.
Let's go back to chess - the quintessential strategy game. There's no RPS system in chess. More recently, I believe that many space-based 4x games also do not utilize a countering system (ie: Master of Orion, Ascendancy).Name a strategy game where an ability, unit, whatever can not be countered. Prove me wrong.
Then how is FF7 not an RPG? Combat RPGs are still RPGs.That's the same thing. Your definition works for when you are playing a role of a class such as a soldier, a farmer, aka a vage term. When you are playing the role of George, Vincent, etc., then it's specific to the point where you ARE that person.
My point is that when you role play something, let's say a dad, that doesn't mean you are going to be in combat, leveling up or any of the nonsense people seem to think role playing is. It's a general term that can apply to more than just combat.
You still dont get it. SCII is not a strategy game. Your definition is flawed. The game is automaticly a strategy if two players have an equal chance of winning, and what the players actions in the game? Thats EVERY ****ING GAME WITH MULTIPLAYER. Quake 4 everyone is equal, and you choose what weapon,. and how to execute an attack in a large area. Is it strategy? no. Soul Caliber you use one man to punch kick and throw someone around till thier health reaches zero. Is it strategy? no.Revelade said:Strategy: the player is rewarded on what he decides to do, rather than how he does it. The opponents and him are equal in terms of stats and the game is decided through choice. The chances of winning should be close to equal for ALL players in the game. Games in this area are: Starcraft, Warcraft III, chess and SOUL CALIBUR 2.
That is a simulation game. Tehre is a difference. RPG revolves around one or more characters who are usualy explored in much depth with a rich story. The original designes of RPG were pen and paper etc. Modern RPG is computers with a level system. None of this correspondds to the Sims, which is a simulation game.The Sims
Yet RPS is a game of luck.The bottom line: Soul Calibur II is a strategy game because it counters beat skill, both players are equal in terms of chances of winning and it's not dictated by luck.
Becuase no one builds one zealot, and just one mutalisk. It doesn't work like that. Nothing is just counter a, counter b and counter c. Zealots can beat a marine, but a couple marines will beat a zealot. If that is rock paper scissors according to you, there is almost no point in argueing with you.Again, how hard is it to picture a marine fighting a dark templar or a mutalisk fighting a zealot? Perhaps you need to play SC some more, if this is too hard for you.
Well, a photon cannon can beat a mutalisk and a zergling, while a mutalisk can kill a zergling too! It's a mind **** isn't it. It's not rock paper scissors. Stop taking out 0.1% of the gameplay to try and proove your arguement.Pan, every strategy game has RPS... A spore colony will kill a mutalisk, a mutalisk will kill a zealot, a zealot kills a spore colony. I guess Starcraft's not a strategy game. Great definition.
I'm wrong now am I? Because you "proved me wrong" or you said I was.Actually, there ARE direct counters in WC3. You know frost wyrms? Those big air things that cost 7 food and are the most powerful damage units in the game? You know what can easily beat them? Dryads. No matter how many wyrms you have, one dryad will beat them all. Again, you attempt to prove a point but end up wrong.
Calling a cat a fish, won't make it swim.If you aren't going to bother proving your point, then don't bother replying at all. I'm making perfect sense with my arguments, thank you, but every example you bring up is WRONG.
Oh, I need to learn to read? I guess writing 3 pages of arguments is possible being illiterate. Another fine example by pan.
You poor fool. Stop misreading me, and pretending I say something I don't. I say, quite simply, RPS does not dictate strategy. RPS in essence is a game of chance. WCIII is not RPS. WCIII is actualy an RPG-Strategy game. Chess is not RPS, every piece is equal, every piece can take another. It is the manner of movement which differentiates them. Even then a Queen is no mightier than a pawn, when the Queen fails to stop a pawn from performing a check mate.pan, you're the one that brought up RPS and you claim that any game that has it is not strategy yet countless games, whether it's to the recent Warcraft III to the ancient chess have it. Again, you're contradicting yourself.
Good observation. SC2 does in fact require reflexes, but not to the point where a person with better reflexes can beat someone who knows which move beats what, which is the case in CS, where the faster aimer will be victorious in confrontations, though there are chances where you have the guy facing the other way.B)ushid(o said:Eh? Which one is it?
I never said those games don't utilize reflexes. I was saying that SC2 utilizes reflexes, as well.
Actually, there is, but it's based more on position. Position determines the power of the piece. While you can have a queen in a corner of the board, a queen in the middle of the board obviously has more power because it has more spaces it can attack. Therefore, a rook diagonal to a bishop would lose, even though it is considered one of the strongest pieces in the game. A bishop however, would lose to a rook in a vertical or horizontal file. It's not each individual piece themselves, but their position on the board as well as other pieces that determines their power.Let's go back to chess - the quintessential strategy game. There's no RPS system in chess. More recently, I believe that many space-based 4x games also do not utilize a countering system (ie: Master of Orion, Ascendancy).
Every RPG is not a combat game. That's my point. Not the other way around.Then how is FF7 not an RPG? Combat RPGs are still RPGs.
Quake 4 is not a strategy game because it rewards the player who has the fastest reflexes on aiming, rather than the choices each player makes. This makes it a reflex game where execution is key.pan said:Whine