Worst moment in US history?

[jackalopes]

when bill clinton was president

 

[Lights]

Originally posted by Otmorosok
Once again you didnt supply as with guns or tanks, you supplied as with transportation, and food. And we did do most work, we killed most Germans we actually invaded China and relieved some of the presure in your war with Japan. We killed most Germans if we didnt do that then those troops would go to western front and that means bye bye free world, all hail Hitler

Think about this.


Who had the more difficult war strategy? Russia or US? Its a very simple answer, for it is abviously the United States. All the USSR did was cover their western front and hope that Germany did not steam-roll over them. Simple.

The United States on the other hand, was doing complex amphibious assaults, carrier battles in the Pacific, and dog fights in Britian. Our strategy was so much more complex and valuable, that there is no comparision. If the USSR had more confirmed kills, it was not because of national strategy, it was for the stupidity of the German leaders.

And even if those kills were more numerous, they were not as valuable as the accomplishments of the US. Now, once again, I am not degrading Russia's part of the war, only saying it was not them who won it. If it was one single nation (which it wasn't) that nation would have been the United States of America.

 

[Kuzmich]

Originally posted by Lights
Think about this.


Who had the more difficult war strategy? Russia or US? Its a very simple answer, for it is abviously the United States. All the USSR did was cover their western front and hope that Germany did not steam-roll over them. Simple.

The United States on the other hand, was doing complex amphibious assaults, carrier battles in the Pacific, and dog fights in Britian. Our strategy was so much more complex and valuable, that there is no comparision. If the USSR had more confirmed kills, it was not because of national strategy, it was for the stupidity of the German leaders.

And even if those kills were more numerous, they were not as valuable as the accomplishments of the US. Now, once again, I am not degrading Russia's part of the war, only saying it was not them who won it. If it was one single nation (which it wasn't) that nation would have been the United States of America.

First we destroyed most German panzer devisions, those tanks that were taking out US and UK tanks in very large numbers, second we killed most Germans, you destroyed their navy, but we didnt have to care about their navy so that didnt help as much, we took Berlin, we met Germans head to head, we were hit the hardest, we suffered most casualties, we did most dirty work, we killed most of them, and during those 4 years we invented what is considered now the best medium and light weight tank of a war, i think the marvel of bomber plains IL-22 was invented during that time, but i am not sure. We invented it by the way. The kills were valuble, we lost 20000000 men that is a big number, Germans paid for killing those people with 10000000 soldiers and countless civilians. Fact is US didnt have a more then 20000000 strong, army. They would be crushed by Germans if they were alone, just because of the numbers. Most of the assults you did, i repeat were against the navy, once again Russia was not endangered by the navy so we didnt care if it was alife or not. We did most work and killing is valuble, no one else could have done that other nations either didnt have ebough people or were too much sentimental, i can see it now, US waving a white flag after 75% of its army was destroyed, you people dont know how to fight until the last men, we do. You relly on tactics but then way fail you just drop your hands. If Russia didnt bush Nazis with a hammer then you would be unable to perform your sergery. I know that Russia would loose if it was alone, no nation was able to take that burden and not get buried by it. But we did win the war with Germany with help of US and UK, you won the war with JApan, with a little help from us, well that help was really insignificant it was just made so Russia would spread communism to China, which was occupied by Japan. The war with Japan was in my opinion not a part of WW2, i mean it was a 1 on 1 war of US and Japan, other nations just didnt care. Japanese did sent one of their armies in Russia, it walked to Syberia and then was wiped out. So Japanese war was US and Japan, barely involving other nations, so i dont see how it can be called a part of World War 2.

 

[Lights]

Before I say anything, let me mention this: Russian, Germany, and the United States were not the only countries of which the outcome of the war concerned. Remember this as you read.

Originally posted by Otmorosok
you destroyed their navy, but we didnt have to care about their navy so that didnt help as much

The Navy is as vital a part of the military as any other branch, though it may not have had top priority at the time, in the long run, you would have had to encounter it or else lose.

The kills were valuble, we lost 20000000 men that is a big number, Germans paid for killing those people with 10000000 soldiers and countless civilians.

Im sorry, but a 2:1 loss ratio isnt something to be proud of. :\

Fact is US didnt have a more then 20000000 strong, army. They would be crushed by Germans if they were alone, just because of the numbers.

Overall, America had the most technologicaly advanced force in the world. Had we enforced a strict draft, our military numbers would have skyrocketed. Im not saying that we would have won, but we wouldnt have lost due to numbers...

Most of the assults you did, i repeat were against the navy, once again Russia was not endangered by the navy so we didnt care if it was alife or not.

Err...Refer to above paragraphs. Navy is [/i]very[/i] important, even for landlocked countries.

We did most work and killing is valuble, no one else could have done that other nations either didnt have ebough people or were too much sentimental, i can see it now, US waving a white flag after 75% of its army was destroyed, you people dont know how to fight until the last men, we do. You relly on tactics but then way fail you just drop your hands. If Russia didnt bush Nazis with a hammer then you would be unable to perform your sergery. I know that Russia would loose if it was alone, no nation was able to take that burden and not get buried by it.

Instead of breaking this down, I will refer to it as a whole.

First, I do not appreciate you insulting the United States and her armies, that is not needed. There is no reason to start a feud about a countries problems like this, so please dont start it.

You did not really do most of the work, at least not after we joined. Our entire nation was putting everything into the war effort. Thousands of lives lost and billions spent. America fought just as hard as Russia.

But we did win the war with Germany with help of US and UK, you won the war with JApan, with a little help from us, well that help was really insignificant it was just made so Russia would spread communism to China, which was occupied by Japan.

Heh, good point.

The war with Japan was in my opinion not a part of WW2, i mean it was a 1 on 1 war of US and Japan, other nations just didnt care. Japanese did sent one of their armies in Russia, it walked to Syberia and then was wiped out. So Japanese war was US and Japan, barely involving other nations, so i dont see how it can be called a part of World War 2.

WHAT?! Not a part of the war?! thats ludicrous, insane. Why do you keep insinuating that the war was just Germany and Russia, with a little US/UK help. Well, it wasnt. Japan was just a major of force.

Had America not its attention in the Pacific, they would have brought their carier fleets right over to you, in the Mediterranean Sea and elsewhere. Their land forces would be completely focused on your western front and Germany/Japan would have steam rolled.

It is a part of WW2, because America kept it from spreading to other nations, not that it really matters, even if it was only between us, it was still battles of the WW. Wow...

 

[Kuzmich]

You like a smarter more mature version of Guru. Well we had a non agression pact with Japan, and unlike Germans Japanese have respect for agreements it is in their culture. Now about the 2:1 ratio. Its a pretty good ratio if you know that our soldiers often had to fight with bear hands against machine guns. Our whole nation too has worked as a whole to build weapons for our army. Now what i said about not everyone being able to fight until the last men is true, that is just how crazy we Russians are, we fight until the last men standing, any survivor from German side who fought on Eastern front will tell you that. Dont forget that we killed more Germans then US and UK combined. US was not a most technologically advanced country during WW2. What are you talking about? Germans had better subs, tanks, British had better plains, Russians had better tanks, you had nothing really special. It can be debated that US is most technologically advanced nation right now, it is the richest but from what can be seen other nations do just as well by not throwing the money away on high costing and relatively effective machines. We save and yet we get technology US military hasnt even thought about yet. For example some of the Russian cheap budget inventions which are as effective and in some ways more effective then anything US has to offer: Plasma shield, Vector engine, SU-47 Bertuk, that assult rifle, dont remember the name but it is a revolution in automatic rifle making, a 5 year old child can shoot from it and there is almost no backdraft, and it carries good punch and 30-72 rounds depending on the magazine. That is just a few. Oh and we did take Berlin, we ended war with Germany.

 

[Lights]

Originally posted by Otmorosok
It can be debated that US is most technologically advanced nation right now, it is the richest but from what can be seen other nations do just as well by not throwing the money away on high costing and relatively effective machines. We save and yet we get technology US military hasnt even thought about yet.

Debated, yes. Realistically argued, not really.

Our carriers are the best, our Nucleur Ballistic Submarines can take out entire countries each, and we have 18, our standard army is outfitted with the best of the best and our Naval DDG's own.

As for the Air Force, well, I will get back to you on that. Its not exactly my area of expertise. Not thought of yet? Our research and development are one of, if not, the best.

 

[Kuzmich]

Ever heard of Russian Shark? Its a sub it carries 250 nuclear missiles that is enough to make all major cities in US go away. We got more then one of those and besides we got those special boats, dont know much about them exept that they supposed to be good. We got SU-37 the only plain in the world that can point its nose in any direction without changing speed or going forward while turning. Read the "Otmorosok vs. Guru" and "Just to clear something out" threads if you want to know about the plains, you got that F-22 but its just a prototype on the other hand SU-37 is real and operating and we got a SU-47 prototype which is as stealth as F-22 yet faster and cheaper and more manuverable, thx to the plasma shield, Besides SU-37 is the most maneurable plain to the date, we made it and it doesnt look like we gonna have a war with US in next 30 years and that is in how long it is estimated the radar will be invented that will be able to detect even stealth plains, after that with our vector engines we will own the skies, we own them right now, we just dont have an enemy to show our superiority on. Besides we still have enough nukes to make any country in the world a nuclear desert, and we got lots of oil. US is wasting a lot of money while it could be saving, but then you look at the results you can see that most of that money didnt pay off.

 

[bamthedoc]

If you're talking about modern tech, the US is the most technologically advanced nation. If you're talking about WWII, I'll elaborate on what you mistakingly said. I'll do most, sedond, and third most advanced in various areas. I'll note, now, that I don't know the names of that many tanks...

Most Advanced Naval Device:
US Aircraft Carrier -- Pacific Theater

Second Most Advanced Naval Device:
German U-Boats -- Atlantic Theater

Third Most Advanced Naval Device:
Japanese Yamamoto -- Pacific Theater

Most Advanced Air Craft:
US Mustang -- All Theaters

Seconds Most Advanced Air Craft:
US Super Fortress -- All (but Eastern) Theaters
SIDE NOTE: most envied air craft

Third Most Advanced Air Craft:
TIE
German Jets -- Western Theater
Japanese Zeros -- Pacific Theater

Most Advanced Tank:
German Panzer

Second Most Advanced Tank:
British ???

Third Most Advanced Tank:
US ???

Most Advanced Ground Troops:
US Demolition Crews -- Western Theater

Second Most Advanced Ground Troops:
German Infantry -- Western, Eastern, and African Theaters

Third Most Advanced Ground Troops:
TIE
US Calvilry -- All (but Eastern) Theaters
British Infantry -- Western Theater
Russian Front Linesman -- Eastern Theater

Most Advanced Amphibious Assault Teams:
US Navy Seals -- All (but Eastern) Theaters

Second Most Advanced Amphibious Assault Teams:
Japanese Beach Teams (?) -- Pacific Theater

Third Most Advanced Amphibious Assault Teams:
British Naval Assault Team -- Atlantic Theater

Most Advanced Morters:
Russian Demolition Teams -- Eastern Theaters

Second Most Advanced Morters:
German Morter Team -- All (but Pacific) Theaters

Third Most Advanced Morters:
British Army -- Western Theater


The Russians had a huge military, but it was far from impressive. With Linon and Stalin starving the economy, among other things, there was little else the Red Army could do. They were large, and they did well when considering all possible negatives they had going for them. Afterall, they had to deal with Stalin's mad rage, General Winter, and deplorible military and strategic conditions.

The Red Army was as important a factor in WWII as any other nation! It is next to impossible to even try to debate who did the most work in the war due to the fact that public schools tend to teach that one country or another was completely supperior in a war.

What has been forgotten in US schools is that USSR had the most ground kills. What is forgotten in Russia is that the US softened up Berlin for days, even weeks with the envy of the Red Army -- the B-52 Super Fortress. Without the massive bomb raids by the US, and support of Mustangs, the USSR would likely have little chanced getting past the most manuverable and deadlies dog fighters the Nazis had, let alone the Anti-Aircraft Artilary Turrets.

 

[Kuzmich]

I looked at tanks and now i see that you just made this up. T-34 was the most advanced medium weight tank of the war. Panzer was Heavy weight tank. I am tooo lazy to reply to everything else you said, but i will do it later. You are however right that public schools in different countries are trying to make their country look superior.

 

[ORC-r0x0r-ROC]

Most Advanced Air Craft:
US Mustang -- All Theaters

Seconds Most Advanced Air Craft:
US Super Fortress -- All (but Eastern) Theaters
SIDE NOTE: most envied air craft

Third Most Advanced Air Craft:
TIE
German Jets -- Western Theater
Japanese Zeros -- Pacific Theater

Just wondering, do you have stars and stripes sun glasses?
This is complete cobblers! How can a piston engined aircraft be more advanced than a Jet!? Where ever you got this list from, pls tell them they are talking out thier backsides. I wouldnt count this imaginative list as an legitimate source...

 

[Kuzmich]

I think we should adress the issue of some people making up information. Not good man, very not good, next time you make something atleast make sure it looks like truth or you talking to someone who doesnt know anything about the topic.

 

[Lights]

Originally posted by Otmorosok
Ever heard of Russian Shark? Its a sub it carries 250 nuclear missiles that is enough to make all major cities in US go away. We got more then one of those and besides we got those special boats, dont know much about them exept that they supposed to be good.

Not that I doubt you, but could you possibly supply a link with that information. A sub that could carry 250 missiles would have to be bigger than an aircraft carrier, that is a huge amount...

 

[Kuzmich]

We make huge subs, very big, at least once we use for nuke carrying, they big and loud, all they good for is destroying the world. Here is the link

http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/87/343/11351_Submarine.html

I think it said that the sub sank, but that info is outdated, so it is in operation again, i remember the day it came back, cause they were showing it on the news. We got many similar subs, that are smaller, and quiter. Kursk for example.

 

[ORC-r0x0r-ROC]

Yup kursk was one of the biggest in the world, in sank Unfortunately, the bow section blew up under mysterious Circumstances, it was coated with a special rubber-like substance to reduce its sonar signature. Also the russians have the largest aircraft in the world the Antonov an-225. I guess this applies in russia"The bigger, the better!"

 

[bamthedoc]

The Jets hat poor manuverabilty, and they weren't exactly that fast. The Nazi Jets just, well, weren't that great. The "piston" powered Mustang was actually faster than the Nazi Jets, and a lot more manuverable. The B-52s were the most envied planes of the time for a reason. I'd have said the Zeros were a lot better than the jets, but the mustangs came late enough in the war that they far surpassed anything else.

T-34s were interesting, not that great, but the Panzers were a lot better.

As per that list, it comes from cumulitive research of war machines throughout history. I "specilize" my history studies in WWII, and I made that list based on various machines I could recall. After Pearl Harbor, the US became quite specilized on demolitions, planes, and naval ships.

BTW: Russia is not the USSR. I'm not making fun or or dismissing the USSR's role in the war, but I don't understand your rather excessive patriotism to a country that fell into what is now Russia and many -stan countries.

FYI: I was tempted to take Nazi Jets off the list, completely. They were a nuance, though, so I reconsidered.

 

[Kuzmich]

You got to research some more, T-34 was great Germans couldnt even shoot through its armor until they invented that new gun for tanks and even then they had trouble. T-34 was much better then US or UK tank, that is just a fact. Russia, was the dominant region of USSR, we added them to us not the other way around, so yes i am feeling patriotic. If you really specialize in WW2 then you need to specialize more, because most of what you said in that list is crap. You hjaven't even included T-34 while it was better then US or UK tank. Panzer and T-34 were indifferent weight categories. T-34 was the best medium weight tank of WW2, Panzer was the best heavy weight tank of WW2, but than it came to actuall battle then they worked about the same. King Panzer was made by Germans after they captured some of T-34s and T-44s that is why King Panzer unlike Panzer has similar shape to T-34. Remember the battle of Kursk, T-34 worked just fine in there, while through out WW2 UK and US tanks struggled to take out Panzers, the count was something like 1 panzer 10 allied tanks. T-34 had a ratio of 1 Panzer on 3 T-34s now there is a big difference between those numbers.

 

[ORC-r0x0r-ROC]

Originally posted by bamthedoc
The Jets hat poor manuverabilty, and they weren't exactly that fast. The Nazi Jets just, well, weren't that great. The "piston" powered Mustang was actually faster than the Nazi Jets, and a lot more manuverable. The B-52s were the most envied planes of the time for a reason. I'd have said the Zeros were a lot better than the jets, but the mustangs came late enough in the war that they far surpassed anything else.

You said spefically the most advanced, not the fastest, not the most manuverable, but the most advanced, the german jets were the most advanced. The mustang, nice plane, nice copy. Yeah they came late enough, you mostly compare technology in different timezones and you compare a bomber to fighters.... and demolition crews to regular infantry, aircraft carriers to U-boats. sorry, but no.

 

[ORC-r0x0r-ROC]

Another double post ****-up :angry I will edit some usefull text in here later.

 

[ORC-r0x0r-ROC]

Originally posted by bamthedoc
The Jets hat poor manuverabilty, and they weren't exactly that fast. The Nazi Jets just, well, weren't that great. The "piston" powered Mustang was actually faster than the Nazi Jets, and a lot more manuverable. The B-52s were the most envied planes of the time for a reason. I'd have said the Zeros were a lot better than the jets, but the mustangs came late enough in the war that they far surpassed anything else.

You said spefically the most advanced, not the fastest, not the most manuverable, but the most advanced, the german jets were the most advanced. The mustang, nice plane, nice copy. Yeah they came late enough, you mostly compare technology in different timezones and you compare a bomber to fighters.... and demolition crews to regular infantry, aircraft carriers to U-boats. sorry, but no.

King Panzer was made by Germans after they captured some of T-34s and T-44s that is why King Panzer unlike Panzer has similar shape to T-34.

Yeah but i quite remember the "sneaky" russians getting t-34 from the panzer in the first place, though i will have a look for you.

 

[bamthedoc]

You two love this tag-team thing, don't you?

I have one question for the both of you:
Have either of you written a college-level paper outlining, in detail, the specifications of each weapon from each country in such detail as to know what beats what tech-wise? If you haven't, I certainly have.

The list I made is from what I remember, first off. That's why it's not split up into a lot of seperate categories to include differences between dog-fighters and bombers. That's why it's not split up to include differences between aircraft carriers, submarines, and battleships. I would have used my report as evidence, but, unfortunately, it has gone the way of the dodos like a lot of other papers I've written due to the fact that I had them on 3 1/2" floppy discs. I guess I shouldn't have let mom at them with her digital camera >_< She deleted everything.

You want to get into specifics? The heavy-weights from WWII were a lot better than the medium- or light- weights. The T-34 was not that impressive, and most of its kills came from "ganging up" on something, a lot like the US light-weight Eisenhower tanks did.




FYI: Advanced encompasses more than nuance. Jets were nuance, and they were little, if anything, more. Mustangs were much more advanced, and that's from specifications, among other things. If I were to do a more comprehensive list, the USSR would show up a lot more. Then again, so would the US, UK, and Nazis. Italy, Japan, and France would peek in, too. I think Sweden, Switzerland, and a few other countries would also make an appearance, but I can't make it as comprehensive as I'd like.