Worst moment in US history?

ORC-r0x0r-ROC

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You two love this tag-team thing, don't you?
Dude, you just gotta love it.
I have one question for the both of you:Have either of you written a college-level paper outlining, in detail, the specifications of each weapon from each country in such detail as to know what beats what tech-wise? If you haven't, I certainly have.
Well no, and i don't expect to in some time, but i do know what im talking about, i don't specialise in WW2 at all, infact we have'nt even gone over it in school.
The list I made is from what I remember, first off. That's why it's not split up into a lot of seperate categories to include differences between dog-fighters and bombers. That's why it's not split up to include differences between aircraft carriers, submarines, and battleships. I would have used my report as evidence, but, unfortunately, it has gone the way of the dodos like a lot of other papers I've written due to the fact that I had them on 3 1/2" floppy discs. I guess I shouldn't have let mom at them with her digital camera >_< She deleted everything.
Tell your mum that she is a monster, couldn’t she find anything else to put some photos on?
You want to get into specifics? The heavy-weights from WWII were a lot better than the medium- or light- weights. The T-34 was not that impressive, and most of its kills came from "ganging up" on something, a lot like the US light-weight Eisenhower tanks did.
I know all of this, the reason that the British didn’t make so many heavy tanks is the fact they loved to fight while driving. I really think the T-34 should be on that list, it was much better than the US and British tanks. The US mostly used Sherman’s and tbh they sucked, some people say that they were a significant part of the war; I wouldn’t believe these guys :(.
FYI: Advanced encompasses more than nuance. Jets were nuance, and they were little, if anything, more. Mustangs were much more advanced, and that's from specifications, among other things. If I were to do a more comprehensive list, the USSR would show up a lot more. Then again, so would the US, UK, and Nazis. Italy, Japan, and France would peek in, too. I think Sweden, Switzerland, and a few other countries would also make an appearance, but I can't make it as comprehensive as I'd like
Jet engines are more advanced than piston engines, america didn't have jet engines, everyone was quite new to the concept of jet engines, so i would'nt expect them to be superior to everything straight away. The fact that the mustangs were about as american as the spitfire doesn't really matter.
 

bamthedoc

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The T-34 is the best medium weight tank. The US and UK had great heavy-weight tanks. They, however, weren't mass produced. The Shermans were, outright, the worst tanks in the war, and they were light-weights. In the medium-weight category, if I recall correctly, was Red Army, then Nazi, then UK. The light-weight category was UK, Italy, Red Army -- again, if I recall correctly.

FYI: The Mustangs were original, even if they stole some designs from the Italian Spitfire. All design and concepts for the Mustang, however, were original. I'll see if I can gather the specs later...
 

ORC-r0x0r-ROC

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The M4 Sherman had sloped armour but was too thin, poorly made and too tall. The engines were very good but the guns were insufficient. It wasn’t particularily fast and it’s height made it not only easier to see and target but more vulnerable to tipping over. It was a cheap mass production choice worse than the T34 which did as much to overwhelm the Germans with numbers as did our Shermans.

In my opinion, you should have decided upon the M20 series up to the M6a2 series heavy tanks instead. There would’ve been fewer of them but more of you're tank crews would’ve survived to become more experienced(let alone alive). To me, choosing the M4 over these other two was like the British choosing the Crusaders over the Matildas, you produce greater numbers but inferior quality. To give some perspective, the Russian T34 which was produced on the theory of overwhelming numbers like the Sherman, was a better tank than the Sherman.

One of the reasons we supposedly chose the M4 over the M20s and M6 heavy was how many we could ship in one merchant-man over seas in one trip. Like Goering, all we seemed to ask was ‘how many?’ rather than ‘how good?’

Yes, we won the war with overwhelming numbers of inferior equipment, but I think we could’ve also won the war with the other tanks we could’ve built rather than the M4 Shermans. Just my opinion though.

Also, the shermans had a really bad reputations for setting alight after the first shot both the allies and the nazi's gave the tank really cruels nicknames I can't remember what they were ill have to look it up..
 

x[311]x

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Not to go off topic or anything, but I thought of another American Worst. Not that the list isn't long enough already. Not that I am communist or anything, I'm far from any communist ideology.... How ever I think that one of the most fool hearted things American Officials ever did was to ok the killing of Che Guevara. Even though he was Fidel's next in Command he would have been of more use to the US alive, because he knew all about the revolution occuring in Cuba. The information that was held in Che's head could have turned the whole revolution back into the US's favor. It would have ended up being more like the other revolutions where the US government stepped in and used man power and overturned the revolution. Because of such actions that the US government took, Che is now a national figure head, and the Cubans just hate America. He has full building Paintings in Cuba. So that is just another Worst, to add to the list.
 

ORC-r0x0r-ROC

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Originally posted by ORC-r0x0r-ROC
"North American Aviation originally designed the Mustang in response to a British specification. They agreed to produce the first prototype only 4 months after signing the contract in April 1940. By the end of 1941 North American had delivered the first Mustang to England for test flights. These first Mustangs were powered by the Allison V-1710 engine, a ok engine, but one which didn't operate well at high altitudes.
In April, 1942, a British test pilot, Ronald Harker, flew the Mustang and was quite impressed by it. He suggested that the new plane would be a natural fit with the Rolls Royce Merlin 60-series engine, well-suited to high altitudes. At the prodding of Major Thomas Hitchco.ck, the Americans began working along the same lines (using the Packard license-built version of the Merlin), and the first Merlin-equipped Mustang, the P-51B, flew in November, 1942. The results were impressive, to say the least. At 30,000 feet, the improved Mustang reached 440 MPH, 100 MPH faster than the Allison-equipped Mustang. "

oh look here..BRITISH DESIGN, BRITISH ENGINE (when the alison was in the mustang it was a bag of shit) it got sent to BRITAIN.. (because britain knows what its doing with spitfires..) BRITISH test pilot.. btw guru how can it go faster?? when its heavier and got the same engine as the spitfire???? The british stopped making them and sold most of them to spain and starting making jets.heres more quotes...

"They are roughly the same size, although the Spitfires were significantly thinner in the body and harder to hit. Both were made of metals. As far as I can tell it was fuel tanks and performance requirements. The Spitfire was signficantly lighter than the Mustang despite similar dimensions.Both were well armoured. The Spitfires had something unique starting the ‘strike aircraft’ theory we use in jet-fighters today. They had ‘Universal Wings’, meaning the wings were ingeniously designed to be able to be modified not only for different roles and weaponry but effectiveness at different altitudes, something no other fighter could do." heres yet another..

"The Mustang could outclimb the Spitfire, but not with fully loaded fuel tanks oddly enough. It was also vulnerable for the first legs of its flight. Both were buggers to take off with, the Spitfire because of its narrow based landing gear(like the Me109) and the Mustang because of the weight and bulk of the huge extra-fuel belly or heavy wing tanks it carried(without which its range was far less). The Mustang pilots had to start drawing from the extra fuel tanks immediately which sometimes cause problems. For the first while all this weight and mass made the P51s very sluggish to handle and Spitfires, Hurricanes, Typhoons, Tempests and P47 Thunderbolts were often assigned in the air over their take-off bases to protect them from enemy air raids in which the Mustangs were highly vulnerable when loaded for escort missions just like the Me262s were vulnerable taking off.

The Spitfire’s firepower was generall better than the Mustang. Being built as an interceptor more it was more agile than the Mustang. The Spitfire could accelerate faster, turn, bank and roll faster and climb higher.Both later versions had the British idea for a more vulnerable but better visibility bubble canopy for the ****pit, and advantage over the Me109 for example. The Spitfire could perform better at various altitudes than the Mustang which was best suited to high altitude dog-fighting. This was just as well as the original use of the American engined P51 was as ground support in which its scoop belly cowling proved too vulnerable." BRITISH BETTER visibility bubble canopy

"The British Supermarine Spitfire is one of the most recognized planes of all time, and for good reason. When Britain was on its knees and vulnerable against the relentlessly pounding Luftwaffe attacks, the Spitfire saved the day. In the Battle of Britain, a battle to last the ages, the Spitfire held off the German air force, including its Messerchmitts, from attaining air superiority, making it the best defensive weapon of the war. The Spitfire could outrun the BF-109 with a top speed of 416 mile per hour.The Spitfire was superior to every other German aircraft during the Battle of Britain. The Supermarine had eight .303 caliber machine guns, or four .303 caliber machine guns and two 20 mm Hispano cannons. It could make for an effective dive bomber, carrying either 1000 pounds of bombs, or eight rockets. "It was effective against small targets such as tanks, and enemy troops." The Spitfire was also the first aircraft to shoot down a jet fighter in combat. It shot down the Messerchmitt Me262, while diving from a high altitude (Sundsig-Hansen)."

"The pride and power of the Royal Air Force, the Spitfire led Britain through the Second World War with gallant victories. Its superb performance never faltered. With the help of aircraft designers and many improvements, it was able to keep up with the best of the German fighters, and it was well equipped defend its nation. At first designed with less than adequate armament, the Spitfire was quickly modified and became the perfect aircraft. It was a favorite among many, and not just the pilots. The fighter was the "jewel of the people," and symbolized Britain's refusal to give up, and their unending strength."btw i couldnt care less where you live yank = american north or south well lets move on now what do u think about the M4 Sherman? was it a great tank? and maybe to go far as to win the war?
Heres one of my post's on a earlier page in this thread, i have more to add to this: "The P-51 was designed (as the NA-73) in 1940 at Britain's request. An in-line engine, the British preference, was specified as well as the British standard of eight machine guns.It was the Royal Air Force that bestowed the nickname "Mustang""

Not to go off topic or anything,
You are completely on topic, if anyones off topic its me.
So that is just another Worst, to add to the list.
Its a really good one too, and it has'nt been mentioned yet. Really good for a newcommer to BF(Battle Forums). Welcome and i hope you post more in the AS (Arcane Santuary). We need a bit of your point of view to spruce this place up!
 

bamthedoc

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Actually, the P51 (I prefer "Mustang"...) was built to British specs, but it was American design. The British wanted a long-range support dog-fighter that could take a beating. The Mustang was our answer, and it worked. At first, it was slow and sluggish. However, after the Tuskegi (sp?) Airmen (all-black squadren -- best aviation record in WWII, period), the Mustang went through multiple improvements. The British engine wasn't the only one used. GM, Ford, and Diamond-Crystler donated engines for Mustang development, as well. I believe Tuskegi got in the first Fords.



@ x[331]x

You're more on-topic than the two Russians and two Americans have been for quite a while ;) That incident you mentioned was a big mistake, true enough. However, as all dictators, Castro has "calmed down" over the years.

Also... A question. If Cubans "hate" us so much, why do they desperately, and I do mean desperately, seek to escape to the US. I'd answer that, but I don't feel like it ;) Let's just say, grudges aren't really held that long if they're more modern.
 

ORC-r0x0r-ROC

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Originally posted by bamthedoc
Actually, the P51 (I prefer "Mustang"...) was built to British specs, but it was American design. The British wanted a long-range support dog-fighter that could take a beating. The Mustang was our answer, and it worked. At first, it was slow and sluggish. However, after the Tuskegi (sp?) Airmen (all-black squadren -- best aviation record in WWII, period), the Mustang went through multiple improvements. The British engine wasn't the only one used. GM, Ford, and Diamond-Crystler donated engines for Mustang development, as well. I believe Tuskegi got in the first Fords.
You have to admit that the mustang was remarkablely similar to that of the spitfire, except that the mustang was a slightly different shape and it had fatter wings to carry more fuel so it could travel furtherdistances which in turn allowed them to escort the bombers.
You're more on-topic than the two Russians and two Americans have been for quite a while
As much as i am flattered by you mistaking me for a comerade of otmorosk born and raised on the great motherland. I am truly not. My origin is of the united kingdom whom had more than 3 quarters of the world for more years than i care to count.
 

Kuzmich

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Originally posted by ORC-r0x0r-ROC
You said spefically the most advanced, not the fastest, not the most manuverable, but the most advanced, the german jets were the most advanced. The mustang, nice plane, nice copy. Yeah they came late enough, you mostly compare technology in different timezones and you compare a bomber to fighters.... and demolition crews to regular infantry, aircraft carriers to U-boats. sorry, but no. Yeah but i quite remember the "sneaky" russians getting t-34 from the panzer in the first place, though i will have a look for you.
We made it ourselves, T-34 came out way before king panzer, and panzer and T-34 dont even look the same. In the begining of the war Panzers couldnt penetrate T-34's armor, it was so before they invented the new gun.
 

B)ushid(o

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A T-34 could destroy Panzers easily. The Panzer tanks were no match for the T-34. The best tank the Nazis made was the Panther or King Tiger tanks and they could turn the T-34s into piles of smoldering junk, but many of those tanks had defects and malfunctioned on the field. If the Nazis could mass produce the King Tiger or Panther the Russian front would have been much harder. The King Tiger would also run out of fuel quickly.

It was because of British bombings on Nazi tank factories that very few of those tanks could be produced (Americans may have helped bombed but I don't remember).
 

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Most of the bombings were done by US B-52s... They got deeper into Nazi territory and hit harder. The US did the most factory, railway, and ship bomb runs, just FYI.
 

Kuzmich

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Originally posted by B)ushid(o
A T-34 could destroy Panzers easily. The Panzer tanks were no match for the T-34. The best tank the Nazis made was the Panther or King Tiger tanks and they could turn the T-34s into piles of smoldering junk, but many of those tanks had defects and malfunctioned on the field. If the Nazis could mass produce the King Tiger or Panther the Russian front would have been much harder. The King Tiger would also run out of fuel quickly.

It was because of British bombings on Nazi tank factories that very few of those tanks could be produced (Americans may have helped bombed but I don't remember).
You right about king panzers, they were better then T-34, but they took too much time and resources to produce and Hitler just didnt have any of thsoe things.
 
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i Think that droping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the worst thing we have ever done i mean it might have stoped WW2 but it killed 75,000 people when it blew and about 25-50,000 people year later from radiation.
 

ORC-r0x0r-ROC

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I doubt that is the worst thing, although it does deserve to be here. I hated how the US let japan off with the rape of nanjing, in order to obtain research that they had concerning biological weapons.

Omto I wasn't really sure about that comment, I just heard that the russians basically made the t-34 just like a superpowered version of a german tank.

People can't agree what was the worst thing that happened, as the reasons for why they are the worst are greatly opinionated
 

Kuzmich

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Well you right about no one agreeing on what is worst, it is one of those eteranl discussions, like why are we here?
 

bamthedoc

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I have a question: Who here knows how many targets were selectect for atomic bomb drops? Who here knows how much time there was between Hiroshima and Nagasaki? It is true that it is a horrible thing. War is brutal; war is bloody. War, however, can often be necessary. It's an awful truth, but it is truth.

I'll answer those questions now. There were at least ten targets and one nuclear device for each. Hiroshima was target number one, and it was hoped that the emporer would surrender after that. Nagasaki was target number three, but number two was fogged over. It was hoped we'd never have to go that far.

The emporer, in fact, did send out the absolute surrender after Hiroshima, but the US didn't hear it for 30 minutes because of telograph delay over the Pacific -- at best guess. Nagasaki was dropped at least ten minutes before the US heard "surrender". Are we sorry? I think the response of the Enola Gay pilots was plenty enough to state "yes". Was it necessary? Yes.

Whatever you say, think, or believe, at the time, the Japanese emporer was "god" of Japan, and he was worshipped as such. He would have ordered the Japanese to kill themselves before allowing Japan to be taken. In showing absolute ruthlessness, as is often necessary in war, we showed the emporer that surrender was the better option. Would you have prefered the war to go on for more than twice as long? Would you have prefered millions more men, women, and children to die? Would you have prefered the Japanese people to commit honorable suicide rather than be taken?

It would be interesting to see what you would say if you knew we had the nuclear bombs and the ability to end the war quickly and we hadn't used it. You would be saying the same thing or you wouldn't exist because your ancestors could have died taking an empty Japan.
 

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How we treated the indian tribes settling in to the west
I'd have to disagree with that man, we treated the native americans pretty good until they proved themselves hostile. We sold them alcohol, blankets, guns, pretty beads and all that stuff, and they repay us by attacking our settlements.
 

Kuzmich

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Originally posted by bamthedoc
I have a question: Who here knows how many targets were selectect for atomic bomb drops? Who here knows how much time there was between Hiroshima and Nagasaki? It is true that it is a horrible thing. War is brutal; war is bloody. War, however, can often be necessary. It's an awful truth, but it is truth.

I'll answer those questions now. There were at least ten targets and one nuclear device for each. Hiroshima was target number one, and it was hoped that the emporer would surrender after that. Nagasaki was target number three, but number two was fogged over. It was hoped we'd never have to go that far.

The emporer, in fact, did send out the absolute surrender after Hiroshima, but the US didn't hear it for 30 minutes because of telograph delay over the Pacific -- at best guess. Nagasaki was dropped at least ten minutes before the US heard "surrender". Are we sorry? I think the response of the Enola Gay pilots was plenty enough to state "yes". Was it necessary? Yes.

Whatever you say, think, or believe, at the time, the Japanese emporer was "god" of Japan, and he was worshipped as such. He would have ordered the Japanese to kill themselves before allowing Japan to be taken. In showing absolute ruthlessness, as is often necessary in war, we showed the emporer that surrender was the better option. Would you have prefered the war to go on for more than twice as long? Would you have prefered millions more men, women, and children to die? Would you have prefered the Japanese people to commit honorable suicide rather than be taken?

It would be interesting to see what you would say if you knew we had the nuclear bombs and the ability to end the war quickly and we hadn't used it. You would be saying the same thing or you wouldn't exist because your ancestors could have died taking an empty Japan.
Speak for yourself, my ancestors would be just fine. My grandfather fought Japanese in China, and he survived, but we gave the Japanese a chance to fight as they did for generations, until last men down, the same way we fought for ages, it was wrong stripping them of their right to die defending their country.
 

bamthedoc

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It's likely your grandfather could have died if the war went on. I'm not saying 100% for sure; I'm saying more likely. Why? It's likely that some one would end up helping the US with Japan, even if it was the USSR. Besides that, the US didn't want millions of people to die because the war couldn't end quickly -- and that includes both sides. Regretable? Yes. Unnecessary? No.
 
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