Gods Existence...real or not.

[AZN_FLEA]

your forgetting that king jmes was a firm believer himself thats not an opoinion that is a fact

 

[Tipsy]

Tipsy you didn't address my points at all. Go back and do it again, ok? And actually provide some evidence. Until now I was letting you get away with begging the point, but not anymore.

My fault, guess I didn't understand what you meant. So, to go back, I will also include your previous post. This entire post will be dedicated to you BFH.

You aren't using the actual 'bible', Tipsy, you are reading (guarenteed) an edited version of the King James version of the bible...

The bible was compiled by King James. They made sure that it had a consistant message, and that it would help maintain power. That is not an opinion, Tipsy, that is a solid and provable fact. Just look at the history books

First off, today, the King James bible is the most widely used bible, by, and here comes the zinger, non-Catholics. My evidence for this is that as of May 19, 2002 the New American Bible became the only bible that could be read in the church (for English versions in the United States).
(There is a big difference between the King James Bible and the New American Bible)

To give you information on this bible:
"The New American Standard Bible translation team adhered to the literal philosophy of translation. This is the most exacting and demanding method of translation, and requires a word-for-word translation that is accurate and precise, yet easily readable. This philosophy of translation follows the word and sentence patterns of the original authors so that the reader is free to understand God's message as the Holy Spirit leads."

"No initial translation work was ever done by a single individual working privately. The renderings were always the outgrowth of a pooling of ideas and input from a group of translators. Sometimes done by the entire translation committee and sometimes by a subcommittee thereof, the initial draft was then shipped to consultants in other areas, who were given several weeks to evaluate the translated portion. Their comments were then combined and the whole package submitted to the translation committee which at this point finalized the translation for that given portion. Though a constant refining of the text ensued, this, in essence, was the work that was eventually published."

"1.These publications shall be true to the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.
2. They shall be grammatically correct.
3. They shall be understandable.
4. They shall give the Lord Jesus Christ His proper place, the place which the Word gives Him; therefore, no work will ever be personalized."

"The King James Version, a landmark in the history of English Bible translation, is a revision of the Bishops' Bible of 1568. The KJV became the basis for the English Revised Version appearing in 1881 (New Testament) and 1885 (Old Testament). The American counterpart of this last work was published in 1901 as the American Standard Version. The ASV, a product of both British and American scholarship, has been highly regarded for its scholarship, and accuracy.

"The updated NASB represents revisions and refinements recommended over the last several years and incorporates thorough research based on current English usage. And rest assured, the translators and consultants who contributed to the updated NASB are, as always, conservative Bible scholars who have doctorates in biblical languages, theology, or other advanced degrees. Representing a variety of denominational backgrounds, the translators of the updated NASB meticulously followed all the same tried-and-true safeguards as set forth in the original NASB, which took the NASB translators nearly 10 years to complete."

Recognizing the values of the American Standard Version, The Lockman Foundation felt an urgency to preserve these and other lasting values of the ASV, by incorporating recent discoveries of Hebrew and Greek textual sources and by rendering it into more current English. Therefore, in 1959 a new translation project was launched, based on the time-honored principles of translation of the ASV and KJV. The result is the New American Standard Bible."

"The King James Version (KJV) is an English translation of the Holy Bible, commissioned for the benefit of the Church of England at the behest of King James I of England. First published in 1611, it has had a profound impact not only on most English translations that have followed it, but also on English literature as a whole."

"King James gave the translators instructions, which were designed to discourage polemical notes, and to guarantee that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology of the Church of England."

Note 1: The church of England is not the Catholic Church, it is the Anglican Church.

Note 2: Nearly everything I quoted is important, the red highlighting is just for an emphasis reason.

There is your asked for evidence, I just like writing my own posts and not writing them with over half of it being quotes from other people. Just to point out one more thing, this was only used in English speaking nations.

Edit: Spelling.
Edit 2: Quoting mishaps.
Edit 3: Spelt 'mishaps' wrong in edit 2.
Edit 4: Rephrasing/Proofreading.

 

[MacMan]

I see a greater power in numbers, nothing more—nothing is as perfect.

 

[TH3 R3D B4R0N]

You thought right.
Btw, welcome back.


The meaning of the word 'Catholic' should answer the first part. Though it is true God talks to everyone, a lot of the time people just don't listen, priests, cardinals, bishops, etc, unless they become pope, are not the Vicar of God on the earth. Nobody else has the ability to be infallible on dogmatic teaching in matters of morals and faith. As for should everyone go out and teach, a priest is in school for quite a long time, you have to go through quite a lot more than a four year college to become a priest. You might as well have someone who knows addition go teach a discrete math class. It would be nice if everyone had the dedication to become a learned person in the field of religion to go teach, but the majority of people don't know enough.


First off, it doesn't matter if this example is true or not, the point is I have been multiple examples by different people and in everyone I have pointed out there is an 'uncaused cause'. I have constantly repeated that this in no way proves God exists, but it does hint at one. Also, does this mean you admit there is an 'uncaused cause' or must we continue?


Well let's see this. This seems to be a controversy, and yet you claim your side to be right over my side, even though historians do not even know, how peculiar. I wait for you to prove that your belief is correct. Here is the direct quote from that website:



How is it an unnecessary step. If 'God', who defies logic exists in the Christian sense, then it no longer makes the particle that was created out of nowhere illogical. It makes just as much sense as the other scenario. Nothing exists, the universe is nothing, no blackness, no nothing, then a particle just randomly appears. Though this probably just turns into an opinion matter.


Post why you think this then. I have already pointed out how important the role of women is to the church. If you are saying that the role of women is minimized, which in no ways is similar to ‘evil’, then it is due to the society of the time period. The reason this effects the bible is because of how divine inspiration works.


That is why there is so much studying needing to be done before you can understand the English version of the bible.


There is a reason Jesus put a church and specifically a Vicar of God on the earth. Just to point out, I do not mean he was put here to patch the bible, but to well proclaim his word.


Maybe if people would actually listen to their religion. If I had to pick out the most important teaching of God, which Jesus did for us in the bible, and everyone followed them, the world would be so much better. Jesus said the most important things were to love God and love your neighbor (except he said it in a longer way). You can trace nearly every Christian dogmatic practice down to those two lines. I don't see how those two lines can be modernized, they are basically the foundation of the entire religion of Christianity. And for nearly all the other examples you gave, keep in mind, we are all sinners after all. This does not exclude anyone, from a priest to a Pope, a theist to an atheist.
Note: The belief that Jesus and Mary did not sin is the exception to this, but the only one up to this day.

Oh, my Tipsy, so you're saying sex with choir-boys on a large majority of preachers and Bishops, Cardinals and priests, is just another laugh-it-off-God-will-forgive sin? We are talking about respected "officials" MOLESTING small children. If the Church had any decency, they would put these ****ing pigs to death. Don't shrug that off, this isn't something so small as a forbidden apple or a lie, or premarital sex. This is 11-year-old choir boys all over the world being violated. These people usually get away with this, BECAUSE of the Vatican. So why don't you tell me what good Godly message was comin' outta those preacher's members.

 

[Tipsy]

Oh, my Tipsy, so you're saying sex with choir-boys on a large majority of preachers and Bishops, Cardinals and priests, is just another laugh-it-off-God-will-forgive sin? We are talking about respected "officials" MOLESTING small children. If the Church had any decency, they would put these ****ing pigs to death. Don't shrug that off, this isn't something so small as a forbidden apple or a lie, or premarital sex. This is 11-year-old choir boys all over the world being violated. These people usually get away with this, BECAUSE of the Vatican. So why don't you tell me what good Godly message was comin' outta those preacher's members.

I am saying everyone is a sinner. Also, last time I checked 1% of all priests isn't a large majority. The church putting people to death, have you checked their stance on the death penalty lately? The Catholic Church gives forgivness. One obvious example is a guy shot John Paul II, and he went back and forgave and embraced his shooter, if only the whole world worked as well as this. The church forgives because that is what it does. Peter asked Jesus how many times should he forgive someone who sins against him. I think Peter suggests forgiving seven times, but Jesus responds by saying seventy time seven times.

I am proud that my church can forgive people, whether it be people of their own religion, or people who seek to destroy it. Becoming a bishop, cardinal, or priest doesn't make you a better person, if just makes you a bishop, cardinal, or priest. We all make mistakes. And trust me, no one is going to 'get away with a sin', whether it is considered okay or not in our society.

I see a greater power in numbers, nothing more—nothing is as perfect.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

 

[MacMan]

I didn't say science, I said numbers.

 

[Homem mAIOR]

The meaning of the word 'Catholic' should answer the first part. Though it is true God talks to everyone, a lot of the time people just don't listen, priests, cardinals, bishops, etc, unless they become pope, are not the Vicar of God on the earth. Nobody else has the ability to be infallible on dogmatic teaching in matters of morals and faith. As for should everyone go out and teach, a priest is in school for quite a long time, you have to go through quite a lot more than a four year college to become a priest. You might as well have someone who knows addition go teach a discrete math class. It would be nice if everyone had the dedication to become a learned person in the field of religion to go teach, but the majority of people don't know enough.

Well are you saying that the pope is infalible??lol Good one.
1st; the pope is not ****ing empowered so, like everyone else he is prone to miss...
2nd; you cannot say that this is jesus church... as I've mentioned, you follow Pauls (in my previous post I said peter by confusion) church. And you as big roman church you should think and reason about jesus way of life and what he preached for... it's much more believable that he did not want to have his church settled on rock or wood...
3rd; So you're saying that the priests have a special abillity like Hear voice of god +5 and prestige class voice listener?? I call it skizofrenia but hey that's just me...
4rd; the historians weren't mentioned maybe because they are a lot??
Even one of Portugal most prestigious historicians (José hermano Saraiva) Says so... and in Portugal we have very good historicians...

I could go on but, I have better things to do so; farewell and god speed...

 

[Tipsy]

Well are you saying that the pope is infalible??lol Good one.
1st; the pope is not ****ing empowered so, like everyone else he is prone to miss...

Not in the teaching of dogmatic in the matters of morals and faith. Though of course I can't prove this, and of course you can't prove it wrong. Is the pope still a sinner like all of us, yes he is, but if '****ing empowered' is only referring to dogmatic matters of morals and faith, then according to my beliefs he is.

2nd; you cannot say that this is jesus church... as I've mentioned, you follow Pauls (in my previous post I said peter by confusion) church. And you as big roman church you should think and reason about jesus way of life and what he preached for... it's much more believable that he did not want to have his church settled on rock or wood...

First off, I just did. Maybe you think it is more believable that he did not want a church built on the 'rock or wood', but I believe quite differently. You seem to have no argument left other than my opinion vs your opinion because every factual thing you have mentioned has been proven wrong.

3rd; So you're saying that the priests have a special abillity like Hear voice of god +5 and prestige class voice listener?? I call it skizofrenia but hey that's just me...

Technically yes, but I think you understood me wrong. Everybody has the ability to hear the voice of God, it is just a matter of whether you listen or not. So in that way, yes a priest can hear the word of God, not saying they always do. The only person guaranteed to hear the voice of God is the Vicar of God.

4rd; the historians weren't mentioned maybe because they are a lot??
Even one of Portugal most prestigious historicians (José hermano Saraiva) Says so... and in Portugal we have very good historicians...

I am assuming this is responding to the whole Christianity becoming the religion of the Roman Empire. If this is so, what makes one Portuguese historian's word matter over the word of others? Just because you may be biased towards one side, doesn't mean it ends the controversy.

I could go on but, I have better things to do so; farewell and god speed...

Please go on with anything that is not opinion.

I didn't say science, I said numbers.

My fault, I thought you were referring to mathematics.

 

[MacMan]

I was referring to mathematics. Science and math... there's a difference, you know.

 

[Tipsy]

Mathematics is "the science (or group of related sciences) dealing with the logic of quantity and shape and arrangement." Mathematics is a branch of science.

 

[MacMan]

Mathematics is not empirical, nothing can be proven by experiment; it is therefore not a science.

I just spotted somewhere in this thread where you said something could not be created from nothing. You've either never seen a light bulb, or you know nothing of the science you're arguing against.

 

[SoD-GoD]

MacMan, you need to realize that mathematics is science, and something cannot come from nothing.

The science of mathematics is being able to prove a theory with numbers, such as: the reletivity of one item with the reletivity of another.

The light bulb did come from something, wait not something, something's. The light bulb is a combination of elements that produces a electrical current that illuminates a radient light.

Nice try though.

 

[Homem mAIOR]

First off, I just did. Maybe you think it is more believable that he did not want a church built on the 'rock or wood', but I believe quite differently. You seem to have no argument left other than my opinion vs your opinion because every factual thing you have mentioned has been proven wrong.

No you say you've refuted all my chances but in fact, you didn't! You, as well as I did, argued with your beliefs and nothing I say could make you change your mind! But if you get out of that primitive thing of giving to the supernatural the meaning of unexplainable things, you'd be then trully enlightned! I mean the first religion known was to fire because it gave stone age people warmth, light and scared the shit out of animals who would want to kill them.
And what about multy god religions?? What makes them inferior to yours?? What if I started saying that jesus was a bastard son of Jupiter and Venus and the latest tzunami was Neptune work because of what we are doing to the seas??
Really what makes your religion more accurate than this one??

 

[AZN_FLEA]

No you say you've refuted all my chances but in fact, you didn't! You, as well as I did, argued with your beliefs and nothing I say could make you change your mind! But if you get out of that primitive thing of giving to the supernatural the meaning of unexplainable things, you'd be then trully enlightned! I mean the first religion known was to fire because it gave stone age people warmth, light and scared the shit out of animals who would want to kill them.
And what about multy god religions?? What makes them inferior to yours?? What if I started saying that jesus was a bastard son of Jupiter and Venus and the latest tzunami was Neptune work because of what we are doing to the seas??
Really what makes your religion more accurate than this one??

you see bible has indirect scientific thoughts read the genesis somewhere in that chpater says that there were giants in that age that could mean mamoths you lknow. secondly they dont have any wise books

 

[TH3 R3D B4R0N]

I am saying everyone is a sinner. Also, last time I checked 1% of all priests isn't a large majority. The church putting people to death, have you checked their stance on the death penalty lately? The Catholic Church gives forgivness. One obvious example is a guy shot John Paul II, and he went back and forgave and embraced his shooter, if only the whole world worked as well as this. The church forgives because that is what it does. Peter asked Jesus how many times should he forgive someone who sins against him. I think Peter suggests forgiving seven times, but Jesus responds by saying seventy time seven times.

I am proud that my church can forgive people, whether it be people of their own religion, or people who seek to destroy it. Becoming a bishop, cardinal, or priest doesn't make you a better person, if just makes you a bishop, cardinal, or priest. We all make mistakes. And trust me, no one is going to 'get away with a sin', whether it is considered okay or not in our society.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

Ask the choir-boys if they want to forgive being forced into something like that with someone they thought they could trust. Want to forgive Michael Jackson, and all the rapists out there? Want to forgive the serial killers and the mothers who drown their children? Forgiveness should be earned, Tipsy, not given out to those too weak to control themselves. Priests, 1%, or 1% times seventy, should be punished, not let off the hook because they happen to have the Pope's forgiveness.

 

[Pale_Horse]

IMHO, gods existence died in most people, as a result of science. Jesus (or whatever god you believe in) was someone that could do things that other people could not understand. In turn they labeled them as devine powers.
I think that people that believe in god(s) are looking for a purpose and a meaning to their very existence. Maybe their is none.
If you look at it during times gone by, children were sang to with things like Humpty Dumty, all of those were designed to keep children in like for a sence of order, or something bad will happen to you. Same goes for the bible. Life your life by my rules and you will be sent to heaven, break these and your soul will burn in hell. Everything had a story of misfortunes, that if you saw "the light" you were then saved from damnnation. I believe, that you live life by what codes and morals you believe, not because its what was said was right or wrong or what your parents have instilled upon you.
Is their a god, who the hell knows, but I live my life as if their was once a man who tried to instill better on the people who he met, but he does not rule my life and does not make the choices for me everyday.
I do not pray to any god, because I dont feel I should pray to something/someone that is holding the fact that he/she/it is better than I ever can be, but I do pray to my ancestors, and family. Because they at least I know where real at sometime, and I do know they were human and made mistakes, that hopefully they learned from.
What is the point of praying for forgivness, to someone/something that never answers you. Do you believe that you must go to a church and pray, or fold your hands and ask for a sign to deciede what to do. If not, why do you go then. Religion, and the existence of god is a falisy to me. I was raised as a catholic, but, denounced my faith in god when I asked, why does god let child rapeist to live while, people who save lives die. The reply I got was, it's gods mysterious ways. Why would I want someone to pray to that will let "evil" exist, and "good" to die. Please don't get angry for what I believe, it is just my views on the topic. If you believe in a god, good for you that is your belief, if that makes you stronger and better so be it, be content in who you are.

 

[SoD-GoD]

That is the most well pointed post I've seen in this thread since I've made it Sworn Enemy. You truly make a valid point on the prayer aspect of religion, but you have only a small right to call all religion a falisy. The belief of a single God is to make someone think of a being that has more power over their life then they have. The belief in multiple Gods makes sense to some poeple because of the individual gifts that every person receives at birth. Though I may sound as if I am trying to completely refute your post, I can assure you that I am not, but meerly trying to make a small point as to saying that "Religion is a falisy." I believe as you do, that I should not have to ask for things from a being that has never really acknowledged my pressence on this earth, nor has even acknowledged my word to him/her/it. Life is what you make of it, not what someone/something else makes of it, like you said.

 

[Tipsy]

Mathematics is not empirical, nothing can be proven by experiment; it is therefore not a science.

Not all science is empirical. If you want to see if mathematics is a science, check the dictionary.

I just spotted somewhere in this thread where you said something could not be created from nothing. You've either never seen a light bulb, or you know nothing of the science you're arguing against.

What I specifically said was that according to our scientists today, something cannot come from nothing. All that has to do with conservation of mass and energy. Though the other things I pointed out, is that technically when something changes from energy it is 'technically' created, but not out of nothing. The other thing I pointed out is that science cannot prove anything 100% beyond a doubt, but according to what scientists say today, something cannot come from nothing.

No you say you've refuted all my chances but in fact, you didn't! You, as well as I did, argued with your beliefs and nothing I say could make you change your mind!

I have argued all of your opinions with my opinions and the 'fact' that you or I cannot prove or disprove the existence of God no matter how much we try. All of your so called 'facts' have been disproved such as the whole Christianity was only a political move by Constantine even though the source you gave me said it was a controversy.

But if you get out of that primitive thing of giving to the supernatural the meaning of unexplainable things, you'd be then trully enlightned! I mean the first religion known was to fire because it gave stone age people warmth, light and scared the shit out of animals who would want to kill them.
And what about multy god religions?? What makes them inferior to yours?? What if I started saying that jesus was a bastard son of Jupiter and Venus and the latest tzunami was Neptune work because of what we are doing to the seas??
Really what makes your religion more accurate than this one??

I don't remember saying anywhere that my religion is the 'correct' religion. My religion teaches tolerance of other religions. In my examples of the 'uncaused cause' I did not even restrict it to my God, I said it could be anything from Zeus to a piece of apple pie. You are putting words in my mouth, words which I never said. I don't go around trying to prove God exists or does not exist, I just defend my religion when it is attacked. I was the first person to reply to this thread, and I said "I believe God exists", not "God exists". I am not here to prove God exists; I am here to defend my beliefs.

Ask the choir-boys if they want to forgive being forced into something like that with someone they thought they could trust. Want to forgive Michael Jackson, and all the rapists out there? Want to forgive the serial killers and the mothers who drown their children? Forgiveness should be earned, Tipsy, not given out to those too weak to control themselves. Priests, 1%, or 1% times seventy, should be punished, not let off the hook because they happen to have the Pope's forgiveness.

Well maybe that is what you think, but the God I believe in, and the church that was put here by the person I believe to be his son is all forgiving. All you need to do is ask for reconciliation and you shall have it. In my opinion, the church's opinion, and in Jesus' opinion, everyone should be forgiven if they ask for it.

I was raised as a catholic, but, denounced my faith in god when I asked, why does god let child rapeist to live while, people who save lives die. The reply I got was, it's gods mysterious ways.

Whoever answered that probably had no idea what they were talking about. The answer is quite simply put as 'free will'. Especially if that person was Catholic who answered that, they should know that God gave us free will and allow us to use this elective choice.
(Note: This is from a Roman Catholic perspective)

 

[Pale_Horse]

Sorry if this counts as a double post, but I wanted to reply before I would forget what it was that I wanted to say.

I personally think that a reply to a religious quest with: mysterious ways, it is gods will, or he gave us freedom of choice, is a bunch of nonsence.
Considering, when the bible tells you you must act this way in order to get into heaven.
I find it funny, that someone before they die calls for a priest to repent their sins. If your sorry for it, and god exists, god should already know you are sorry. WTF does telling someone have anything to do with repenting.
To answer the reply of freedom of chioce, rapest do not choose to do so, it is a sickness, much like an addiction is.
I find it rather ironic that wars for the majority are fought over religion. (yes over land, and resourses as well) People are dying because of a belief that can not be truely proven. 9/11 over religion.
To me religion shows how much people can be let around with no more than fear. Fear that for some reason or another they will burn in hell for something they did bad. Talk about a guilt trip.
If a god exist, so be it, but I still would not follow unless, I knew without a second thought, that this being was the one to save us from evil. Call me what you will, but, in this day and age, I find it rather amusing that someone can willingly die, and/or take a life, over something that may/may not be real.

Those of you who are religious here please answer me 1 question. If you were going to die but save 1 who would you die for more? God or, your loved ones. Why?

SOD GOD you and I as far as I can tell, feel the same way about this issue.
Also to reply on who answered my question with "mysterious ways" that was a sister in a sunday school class.

 

[Tipsy]

I personally think that a reply to a religious quest with: mysterious ways, it is gods will, or he gave us freedom of choice, is a bunch of nonsence.
Considering, when the bible tells you you must act this way in order to get into heaven.

Well just to point out, if you believe that 'he gave us free will' is nonsense, which is directly from the bible ("God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." Genesis 1:27), then there is no point in even being Catholic, or for that matter a Christian because you might as well just mark out any other part of the bible you feel like doing. Then again, I am assuming you don't believe in the bible being the word of God since you denounced your faith in God. God doesn't kill people; people kill people in his name.

Though I am confused about one thing, if you do not believe that we as humans do not have free will, and God does not exist so you don't believe in predestination, what exactly is your stance on our elective power?

I find it funny, that someone before they die calls for a priest to repent their sins. If your sorry for it, and god exists, god should already know you are sorry. WTF does telling someone have anything to do with repenting.

First off, if you are talking about people calling for a priest before their death, it is 'the anointing of the sick' and not 'reconciliation'. The reason it is there is because on nearly every page of the Gospels Jesus is concerned for the sick, whether he is out healing them or sending out his disciples. The biblical explanation for it is, and this is the best quote I could get, "Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up; and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven" (James 5: 14-15). In today's church, it like all the other sacraments is a community celebration, it recognizes that we are in sickness more than just bodily illness, and it heals us through faith. That is why you call for someone before you die, you are not calling for the sacrament of reconciliation.

If you want me to explain reconciliation feel free to ask.

To answer the reply of freedom of chioce, rapest do not choose to do so, it is a sickness, much like an addiction is.

First off, it would be nice to see a source on this. If you can show me a source saying it is, I will explain how there are exceptions, for example, if a mentally retarded kid kills someone and does not know it is wrong, he is not sinning.

I find it rather ironic that wars for the majority are fought over religion.

"in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me" John 16:2-3
Need I say more?

(yes over land, and resourses as well) People are dying because of a belief that can not be truely proven. 9/11 over religion.

Yeah, let's just ignore the Quran. Let's ignore where it says that they may only fight in self defense, in defense of an Islamic State, or when a state is oppressing its' people. And let us certainly ignore where it says Muslims must never hurt innocents, and never use more force than necessary. Let's just ignore how Christianity and Islam have no human enemies. You mistake religion with politics.

Those of you who are religious here please answer me 1 question. If you were going to die but save 1 who would you die for more? God or, your loved ones. Why?

Well, my answer would be my loved ones. Why do I choose this? Because God is my father, he is a loved one.

Also to reply on who answered my question with "mysterious ways" that was a sister in a sunday school class.

Yet another reason for everyone to do their research on religion mostly on their own.