Gods Existence...real or not.

[Homem mAIOR]

Well, if gods exist and is all powerfull, why should he care about us... I mean, why the hell does he care? I mean if I were all powerfull, why should I care with some punny flesh creatures (remindes me of someone this sentence)?? I'd just do like in my computer games... when I am bothered I start killing people...

Well as for Jesus it is believed that he was dalai lamma (there are each time more evidences of this)... So, with asian medicine (far more advanced than our own) it is natural he did things that could not be understood by the common folk...

 

[TH3 R3D B4R0N]

Not all science is empirical. If you want to see if mathematics is a science, check the dictionary.


What I specifically said was that according to our scientists today, something cannot come from nothing. All that has to do with conservation of mass and energy. Though the other things I pointed out, is that technically when something changes from energy it is 'technically' created, but not out of nothing. The other thing I pointed out is that science cannot prove anything 100% beyond a doubt, but according to what scientists say today, something cannot come from nothing.


I have argued all of your opinions with my opinions and the 'fact' that you or I cannot prove or disprove the existence of God no matter how much we try. All of your so called 'facts' have been disproved such as the whole Christianity was only a political move by Constantine even though the source you gave me said it was a controversy.


I don't remember saying anywhere that my religion is the 'correct' religion. My religion teaches tolerance of other religions. In my examples of the 'uncaused cause' I did not even restrict it to my God, I said it could be anything from Zeus to a piece of apple pie. You are putting words in my mouth, words which I never said. I don't go around trying to prove God exists or does not exist, I just defend my religion when it is attacked. I was the first person to reply to this thread, and I said "I believe God exists", not "God exists". I am not here to prove God exists; I am here to defend my beliefs.


Well maybe that is what you think, but the God I believe in, and the church that was put here by the person I believe to be his son is all forgiving. All you need to do is ask for reconciliation and you shall have it. In my opinion, the church's opinion, and in Jesus' opinion, everyone should be forgiven if they ask for it.


Whoever answered that probably had no idea what they were talking about. The answer is quite simply put as 'free will'. Especially if that person was Catholic who answered that, they should know that God gave us free will and allow us to use this elective choice.
(Note: This is from a Roman Catholic perspective)

So, say someone murders your entire family, then come to you, covered in their blood, and asks your forgiveness. You'll give it? Or will you turn him over to the police? You cannot make judgement when it comes to something like this unless you've been wronged. It's easy for you and the Pope and the Church to forgive, because they weren't molested (Nor was I, I'm simply defending the children). Maybe you should go get yourself raped once or twice by a priest Tipsy, then forgive the priests when they ask (I mean no offense, just tryin to prove my point).

 

[Tipsy]

Well, if gods exist and is all powerfull, why should he care about us... I mean, why the hell does he care? I mean if I were all powerfull, why should I care with some punny flesh creatures (remindes me of someone this sentence)?? I'd just do like in my computer games... when I am bothered I start killing people...

If you are referring to the God of Abraham existing, then it is because he is all-loving. If you are asking about a different God then specify which.

Well as for Jesus it is believed that he was dalai lamma (there are each time more evidences of this)... So, with asian medicine (far more advanced than our own) it is natural he did things that could not be understood by the common folk...

A source proving this would be nice. And please don't give me another source that in itself either, 1) has no credentials, or 2) does not prove your point and instead says it is a 'controversy' and basically kills you entire attack (your last site in itself killed your argument by saying it was a ‘controversy’).

So, say someone murders your entire family, then come to you, covered in their blood, and asks your forgiveness. You'll give it? Or will you turn him over to the police? You cannot make judgement when it comes to something like this unless you've been wronged. It's easy for you and the Pope and the Church to forgive, because they weren't molested (Nor was I, I'm simply defending the children). Maybe you should go get yourself raped once or twice by a priest Tipsy, then forgive the priests when they ask (I mean no offense, just tryin to prove my point).

Well, with me being human and a sinner, I don't know if I would, but I can only hope that I would have the faith to forgive him. The example with the pope is he was the one that was shot and he forgave the person that shot him. It would be nice if everyone lived in such faith as he did. Also, there is a difference between the pope and the church forgiving. The pope forgave the guy who shot him in the same way we would forgive someone who wronged us. The church forgives people in the name of God, which Jesus bestowed the power to do upon his disciples. I honestly could care less if the person was turned into the police. The reason for this is that if they really aren't sorry for what they have done, they are going to have to deal with it between them and God, and if they truly are sorry, I don't see why the person should be spending life in jail, getting executed, or whatever.

 

[Pale_Horse]

Well just to point out, if you believe that 'he gave us free will' is nonsense, which is directly from the bible ("God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." Genesis 1:27), then there is no point in even being Catholic, or for that matter a Christian because you might as well just mark out any other part of the bible you feel like doing. Then again, I am assuming you don't believe in the bible being the word of God since you denounced your faith in God. God doesn't kill people; people kill people in his name.

This is true, but, the question here is why do people kill in his name. Is it because they have so much faith that they are right, and everyone else is wrong, that they will kill for that belief. If so that is a sin, and in that they will go to hell.

Though I am confused about one thing, if you do not believe that we as humans do not have free will, and God does not exist so you don't believe in predestination, what exactly is your stance on our elective power?

Sorry I'm not following you on this, can you please elaborate.

First off, if you are talking about people calling for a priest before their death, it is 'the anointing of the sick' and not 'reconciliation'. The reason it is there is because on nearly every page of the Gospels Jesus is concerned for the sick, whether he is out healing them or sending out his disciples. The biblical explanation for it is, and this is the best quote I could get, "Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up; and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven" (James 5: 14-15). In today's church, it like all the other sacraments is a community celebration, it recognizes that we are in sickness more than just bodily illness, and it heals us through faith. That is why you call for someone before you die, you are not calling for the sacrament of reconciliation.

My apologies again, I must elaborate here. I was speaking of someone on death row or something along those lines, that min before death, they suddenly believe in god and fear what will happen, so they pour their soul out hoping they will go to heaven.

If you want me to explain reconciliation feel free to ask.

please do, for most of my religious teachings are now long gone in memory

First off, it would be nice to see a source on this. If you can show me a source saying it is, I will explain how there are exceptions, for example, if a mentally retarded kid kills someone and does not know it is wrong, he is not sinning.

So you are saying, a "retarded kid who kills someone is ok because he dosent know better? Its still killing. It's not like that was accidentally done.

"in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me" John 16:2-3
Need I say more?

Ummm, yep. That don't mean jack to me.

Yeah, let's just ignore the Quran. Let's ignore where it says that they may only fight in self defense, in defense of an Islamic State, or when a state is oppressing its' people. And let us certainly ignore where it says Muslims must never hurt innocents, and never use more force than necessary. Let's just ignore how Christianity and Islam have no human enemies. You mistake religion with politics.


Well, my answer would be my loved ones. Why do I choose this? Because God is my father, he is a loved one.


Yet another reason for everyone to do their research on religion mostly on their own.

Sorry never have I read the Quran, but are you saying that Bin Laden is a politican and that 9/11 was all for political gain? He stated that if any muslim was to be on american land or fight with them then they are considered the enemy. Granted this is a clear case when someone misunderstands their own religion, but, still this is was not a political thing. It was a clearly misguided religous thing. My point is, religion is mostly up for terpitation. No one truely knows what is meant within the books of gods.
My personal belief is that every religious writing was about the same person, threwout different periods in time. This person, had done things that could not be explained, so they labeled him as someone greater than they. Do not get me wrong, I do believe their is a holy "god" but I do not see the point in worship of someone that can let such evil in the world. weather it is "free will" or not. Much respect to you sir for your strong faith. I know just from reading you will not waver from thses beliefs. That is if anything admirable. Unfortunitly I do not see, what you see, nor do I believe in the teachings of the bible. This however does not mean that I do not beleive their is something out there. Maybe we are all some test for someone, like lab rats in a maze. lol.

 

[Tipsy]

Sorry I'm not following you on this, can you please elaborate.

My question is what do you believe on the matter of human elective choice. Do we get to choose our actions (free will), do you believe God foreordained all of our choices (predestination), or what? Obviously you don't believe in free will because you said it was a bunch of "nonsense" and you don't believe in predestination because you do not believe in God. I am asking that when we do an action, how does it come about from being chosen. When I scratch my arm when it itches, do I do it out of free will? You already said no to that. Does God decide it for us? You don't believe in God. How do we as humans come about to make decisions if it is not predestination or free will.

My apologies again, I must elaborate here. I was speaking of someone on death row or something along those lines, that min before death, they suddenly believe in god and fear what will happen, so they pour their soul out hoping they will go to heaven.

Honestly, I have never been in that situation so I wouldn't know. The question is are they genuinely confessing or are they doing it out of fear. In order for God to forgive you, you must truly be sorry for it to let him forgive you.

please do, for most of my religious teachings are now long gone in memory

Incase you don't remember, reconciliation is the one thing that is different from many of the sects that split from it. The whole justification behind it comes from when Jesus said, "Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." One key thing to remember is that when you are in the confessional it is not the priest who is forgiving the sin, reconciliation is just an invention that relieves emotional strain from the human soul. Once someone has sinned they must received pardon from the conditions, which God has set, not the condition the individual chooses. To reemphasize, only God has the power to forgive sins, the priests are just being used as an instrument of God. Just saying your sin to the priest is not enough, you must truly be sorry for it, it is between the individual and God on that matter. If you are not sorry, if not the sacrament is pretty much nullified.

This is true, but, the question here is why do people kill in his name. Is it because they have so much faith that they are right, and everyone else is wrong, that they will kill for that belief. If so that is a sin, and in that they will go to hell.

So you are saying, a "retarded kid who kills someone is ok because he dosent know better? Its still killing. It's not like that was accidentally done.

Ummm, yep. That don't mean jack to me.

To answer three questions with one response, the quote, "in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me", means that a time will come after Jesus' death that people will kill because they do not know Jesus or his father.

As for the retarded person, I am pretty sure committing a sin and truly not knowing it is a sin or wrong is well, not a sin.

Sorry never have I read the Quran, but are you saying that Bin Laden is a politican and that 9/11 was all for political gain? He stated that if any muslim was to be on american land or fight with them then they are considered the enemy. Granted this is a clear case when someone misunderstands their own religion, but, still this is was not a political thing. It was a clearly misguided religous thing. My point is, religion is mostly up for terpitation. No one truely knows what is meant within the books of gods.

I am saying that the 9/11 attacks follow the Quran as much as the Crusades follow the bible. Islam is arguable the most peaceful religion in the world. I don't see how hard it is to not understand "thou shall not kill". Both Christianity and Islam believe in the God of Abraham and the Old Testament as well as many other things such as the virgin birth of Jesus. The point is, these are both religions of peace, not religions of anger and war. The three great monotheistic religions of the world are all about the same person, it is just they argue about his characteristics.

My personal belief is that every religious writing was about the same person, threwout different periods in time. This person, had done things that could not be explained, so they labeled him as someone greater than they. Do not get me wrong, I do believe their is a holy "god" but I do not see the point in worship of someone that can let such evil in the world. weather it is "free will" or not.

The thing is, if everyone followed the Ten Commandments, tried to obtain the gifts and fruits of the holy spirit, followed the beatitudes, and actually listened to their religion in an entirety, this evil wouldn't be here. One of the worst things about many Roman Catholic Americans is that they believe that it is okay to 'pick and choose' between different teachings, and that they believe that they have the right to pick over the pope who in their beliefs is the Vicar of Christ.

As for all religions being about the same person, if you didn’t catch it earlier, the three dominant monotheistic religions on the earth (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) all believe in the same God, the God of Abraham, it is an argument between them on the specific characteristics.

If you have any more questions feel free to ask.

 

[MacMan]

MacMan, you need to realize that mathematics is science, and something cannot come from nothing.

The science of mathematics is being able to prove a theory with numbers, such as: the reletivity of one item with the reletivity of another.

The light bulb did come from something, wait not something, something's. The light bulb is a combination of elements that produces a electrical current that illuminates a radient light.

Nice try though.

The fact that you would try to tell me, one of the smartest mathematicians on these boards, that math is a science is... wow... just... wow. I'm speachless. Honestly, I'm amazed by your ability to misunderstand basic concepts, like, oh I dunno, you're own English language. Look it up, you say? OK!

Mathematics: Mathematics is the investigation of axiomatically defined abstract structures using symbolic logic and mathematical notation. It is commonly defined as the study of patterns of structure, change, and space; even more informally, one might say it is the study of "figures and numbers". Because it is not empirical, it is not a science.

Hey, cool! That's exactly what I said! I love always being right. Just so you're clear on the meaning of these complex words I throw around:

Science: The method of learning about the physical universe by applying the principles of the scientific method, which includes making empirical observations, proposing hypotheses to explain those observations, and testing those hypotheses in valid and reliable ways; also refers to the organized body of knowledge that results from scientific study

I challenge you to find any science which is not empirical. Oh wait, you can't. Science is empirical by definition. If something isn't empirical, then, by definition, it isn't a science. P implies Q, not Q implies not P. Holy shit, you're smart.

Goddamn guys, you don't even understand what MATH is, let alone scientific method, so how the hell am I supposed to take you seriously? (Edit: I just read "SOD's" post again. I had a chuckle since I think you were trying to describe the mathematical model of Relativity Theory, a fundamental part of physics, not math.)

Listen: When an electron is excited (i.e. it jumps to a higher energy level) it emits a photon. That photon was not previously there; the light you see has been created from "nothing." Not that hard to understand. The collision of accelerated photons can, in turn, create particle/antiparticle pairs from literally nothing. You're smart, very smart.

Tipsy has something in his sig along the lines of "There is a 5th dimension beyond that which is known to man." Wow! Really?! Gee! If you put it that way, it sounds like it's a big deal! There are 11 dimensions we know of, so to someone with an IQ larger than their shoe size (like myself), you're essentially saying, "I'm ignorant, I like it that way, and even though I don't have the slightest clue of what I'm talking about, I'm still going to dismiss the Big Bang like it's scientific voodoo." Yeah, you're really really smart.

If you aren't going to take the time to understand your opposing argument, then it's not worth my time to argue against you. See, that's one of the most important parts of a debate: actually knowing what it is you're debating.

 

[Tipsy]

I challenge you to find any science which is not empirical. Oh wait, you can't. Science is empirical by definition. If something isn't empirical, then, by definition, it isn't a science. P implies Q, not Q implies not P. Holy shit, you're smart.

Goddamn guys, you don't even understand what MATH is, let alone scientific method, so how the hell am I supposed to take you seriously? (Edit: I just read "SOD's" post again. I had a chuckle since I think you were trying to describe the mathematical model of Relativity Theory, a fundamental part of physics, not math.)

Listen: When an electron is excited (i.e. it jumps to a higher energy level) it emits a photon. That photon was not previously there; the light you see has been created from "nothing." Not that hard to understand. The collision of accelerated photons can, in turn, create particle/antiparticle pairs from literally nothing. You're smart, very smart.

Tipsy has something in his sig along the lines of "There is a 5th dimension beyond that which is known to man." Wow! Really?! Gee! If you put it that way, it sounds like it's a big deal! There are 11 dimensions we know of, so to someone with an IQ larger than their shoe size (like myself), you're essentially saying, "I'm ignorant, I like it that way, and even though I don't have the slightest clue of what I'm talking about, I'm still going to dismiss the Big Bang like it's scientific voodoo." Yeah, you're really really smart.

If you aren't going to take the time to understand your opposing argument, then it's not worth my time to argue against you. See, that's one of the most important parts of a debate: actually knowing what it is you're debating.

Well, I have some good news for you, and some bad news for you. We will start with the bad news. The bad news is, you're wrong. The good news for you is, SoD-GoD and I are wrong also. That whole thing about understanding that opposing argument, well, that is a bit hypocritical too. You got your information from a source that was biased towards one side, whatever it was, and I got my definition straight out of a dictionary which was biased towards being neutral, saying mathematics could be both. This is the time when we all admit that in this matter, to use your phrasing, "[we are] ignorant, [we] like it that way, and even though [we] don't have the slightest clue of what [we are] talking about." Still confused at what I am going after, well, be happy, this shade of, to use this much overused word 'ignorance' is not to be lifted. Here we are, time to explain my reasoning.

You see, you are so close to the truth, and then you stop. You just stopped when everything for your case looked good. Next time go on step further. Completely understand what you debate before you start insulting people. Here we are:
"Some thinkers see mathematicians as scientists, regarding physical experiments as inessential or mathematical proofs as equivalent to experiments. Others do not see mathematics as a science, since it does not require experimental test of its theories and hypotheses."
To be more specific:
"Mathematical realism holds that mathematical entities exist independently of the human mind. Thus humans do not invent mathematics, but rather discover it, and any other intelligent beings in the universe would presumably do the same. The term Platonism is used because such a view is seen to parallel Plato's belief in a "heaven of ideas", an unchanging ultimate reality that the everyday world can only imperfectly approximate. Plato's view probably derives from Pythagoras, and his followers the Pythagoreans, who believed that the world was, quite literally, built up by the numbers. This idea may have even older origins that are unknown to us."
So here we are, unless you want to try to argue philosophy which will no doubt fail because far smarter people have tried to argue for one over the other, and yet have no been able to show one is right over the other.

The fact that you would try to tell me, one of the smartest mathematicians on these boards, that math is a science is... wow... just... wow. I'm speachless. Honestly, I'm amazed by your ability to misunderstand basic concepts, like, oh I dunno, you're own English language. Look it up, you say? OK!

Someone is very modest.

Tipsy has something in his sig along the lines of "There is a 5th dimension beyond that which is known to man." Wow! Really?! Gee! If you put it that way, it sounds like it's a big deal! There are 11 dimensions we know of, so to someone with an IQ larger than their shoe size (like myself), you're essentially saying, "I'm ignorant, I like it that way, and even though I don't have the slightest clue of what I'm talking about, I'm still going to dismiss the Big Bang like it's scientific voodoo." Yeah, you're really really smart.

Apparently someone has never seen the Twilight Zone on tv before. This quote is going straight into the "There is a fifth..." thread.

 

[Pale_Horse]

This however does not mean that I do not beleive their is something out there.

I stated before (quoted here) that I believe their is a higher power, but I refuse to call it "GOD" because as you also state I myself make my own choices in life no one else does.

As for if you have a scratch thing, that is instinct (bad example) you don't think about scratching, you just do. I do believe in free will, but I do not believe that everything is free will. Some things are, for lack of better terminology, preset so we do not try. Like for example: Free will basically means I can do anything I want to do, correct? So does that mean, if I jump off my roof and want to fly, I can?

As far as christianity goes, it is highly known that up until Constintine was ruler of Rome this religion was seen as a "Dark" religion. Along the same lines as a cult. Constintine made it a "popular religion, and when Rome fell, most that scattered went to what would be england. Queen Elizabeth II (I may be wrong on which ruler it actually was) who was born christian made it a nation wide religion. Since the United Stateds is in fact a faction of Britian we, as a nation were mostly christian as well. So in actuality you were just following along as your ancestors were ordered to. The point I'm trying to make is, if you were taught to walk backwards and bark, along with everyone else, you would have no idea it was not normal, until someone walked forward and talked. But you being so trusting in your faith would say something along the lines that it was wrong to do that too, wouldn't you.

Many people around the world right now are reading a book called Di Vinci Code, and believe it to be accurite. Many believe the Bible is accurite. I find it amazing that someone can be led by these words to believe without a second thought that they are right and the other is wrong. I am sure you will say, it's all a matter of faith, but what is faith, but a hope in a belief that can't be proven. Their is no concrete proof anyone can say that jesus existed or that if he did not.

I DO NOT BELIEVE IN FAITH! It too me is something one has to do, so they have a purpose and/or a meaning to life. I am sure, someone will infact come up with something that gives proof to one side, but soon will be discredited by something from the other side.

I do not feel, that if I have "Sinned" I must go to a middleman to repent my sins. You stated, "Just saying your sin to the priest is not enough, you must truly be sorry for it, it is between the individual and God on that matter." If I am truely sorry for something I did, why must I go to someone and tell them. When clearly you stated its just between me and god. Who is god to tell me what is considered a sin anyways. We as a nation kill people who kill others, you don't see exicutioners running off to confession do you. He knowingly killed someone. He's a sinner. What makes that any different ffrom someone robbing a store and shooting the person behind the counter to death.

Religion breeds animosity, (peple fight wars in his name. I have yet to see a war over a piece of cheesecake.) paranoia, (if you don't follow the "good book", to a T your gonna go to hell, unless you are truely sorry for the things you do.) fear, (since someone who is gay want to love another of the same sex, its outomatically considered wrong.) mindlessness, ( faith will lead me through anything, I just have to wait for the sign.) free will, ( I can fly.... splat.) and blind loyalty. (I believe the sky is red.... if it is in the bible it has to be. everyone else is just wrong.)

Tipsy you state: Well, I have some good news for you, and some bad news for you. We will start with the bad news. The bad news is, you're wrong. What exactly is "he" wrong on.

As far as mathematics goes, it is proven without a dout this is the only universal lauguage. Everything comes back to math.

On a side note, every scripture in the bible can be explained sientifically, and/or mathematically.

 

[Tipsy]

As for if you have a scratch thing, that is instinct (bad example) you don't think about scratching, you just do. I do believe in free will, but I do not believe that everything is free will. Some things are, for lack of better terminology, preset so we do not try. Like for example: Free will basically means I can do anything I want to do, correct? So does that mean, if I jump off my roof and want to fly, I can?

Actually, no. Free will is nothing more than an elective choice. If I want to try to fly, then I can go and make the elective choice to jump off my roof. Just because I choose to 'attempt' to fly, does not mean I am going to fly. Free will is merely elective choice.

As far as christianity goes, it is highly known that up until Constintine was ruler of Rome this religion was seen as a "Dark" religion. Along the same lines as a cult. Constintine made it a "popular religion, and when Rome fell, most that scattered went to what would be england. Queen Elizabeth II (I may be wrong on which ruler it actually was) who was born christian made it a nation wide religion. Since the United Stateds is in fact a faction of Britian we, as a nation were mostly christian as well. So in actuality you were just following along as your ancestors were ordered to. The point I'm trying to make is, if you were taught to walk backwards and bark, along with everyone else, you would have no idea it was not normal, until someone walked forward and talked. But you being so trusting in your faith would say something along the lines that it was wrong to do that too, wouldn't you.

The first and most important thing you need to realize is that the England that colonized the new world was not a Catholic country. England made its' own church (The Anglican Church) in the middle of the sixteenth century when the first permanent English colony wasn't made until 1607. Just to point out, there is a 'huge' difference between the Catholic Church and the Anglican Church. Case and point, if I were following what England would have wanted back then, I would be Anglican, not Catholic. For future reference, please refer to which sects of Christianity you refer to when you talk about it (it is just something bothers me, no reason why), because there are differences between some sects that broke off from Roman Catholicism that are as different as Islam and Roman Catholicism is.

As for the actually point you are making, I don't see anything wrong with people not being normal. Believe it or not, we are to love our neighbors in Catholicism, whether they be Muslim, Jews, Satanists, Atheists, etc. I may not believe in what they say, but I do not consider it 'wrong'.

Many people around the world right now are reading a book called Di Vinci Code, and believe it to be accurite.

I find it amazing that people can take a 'novel' as completely accurate. People believe that this story actually happened.

Many believe the Bible is accurite. I find it amazing that someone can be led by these words to believe without a second thought that they are right and the other is wrong. I am sure you will say, it's all a matter of faith, but what is faith, but a hope in a belief that can't be proven.

I find it amazing too that people can take the bible literally. Good thing that Roman Catholicism doesn't. And your right that it is a matter of faith. The faith of most people will be tested. That doesn't exclude me either. I was agnostic for somewhere between a year or two, which is when I spent quite a lot of my free time studying Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. I proved to myself that Roman Catholicism is right for me, it is just a matter of everyone opening the door to letting God talk to you. It is just a matter of everyone getting their personal revelations since the general revelations are over until the end of time.

I do not feel, that if I have "Sinned" I must go to a middleman to repent my sins. You stated, "Just saying your sin to the priest is not enough, you must truly be sorry for it, it is between the individual and God on that matter." If I am truely sorry for something I did, why must I go to someone and tell them.

The justification behind it is basically, Jesus said so. It is explained in the paragraph you just quoted from.

When clearly you stated its just between me and god. Who is god to tell me what is considered a sin anyways. We as a nation kill people who kill others, you don't see exicutioners running off to confession do you. He knowingly killed someone. He's a sinner. What makes that any different ffrom someone robbing a store and shooting the person behind the counter to death.

Well, if you are asking from a Catholic point of view, God has the right to do it because he is your creator. You are absolutely right that we are a nation of murders. We give the death penalty to people, we kill unborn babies, we invade other countries. The church condemns all of these. The statement from the Vatican about the invasion of Iraq was it was a "defeat for humanity." What is different in my eyes between the two people, absolutely nothing. You are absolutely right, they are both sinners.

Religion breeds animosity, (peple fight wars in his name. I have yet to see a war over a piece of cheesecake.) paranoia, (if you don't follow the "good book", to a T your gonna go to hell, unless you are truely sorry for the things you do.) fear, (since someone who is gay want to love another of the same sex, its outomatically considered wrong.) mindlessness, ( faith will lead me through anything, I just have to wait for the sign.) free will, ( I can fly.... splat.) and blind loyalty. (I believe the sky is red.... if it is in the bible it has to be. everyone else is just wrong.)

People kill in his name even though it says that anyone who kills in his name knows neither Jesus nor his father. I would call that politics, not religion. If you can justify any of the wars from a side a believe of that faith will agree with you on that has been in the name of God then go ahead and try. The Catholic Church has even apologized and asked for forgiveness for many of the evil acts done in the name of God.

Tipsy you state: Well, I have some good news for you, and some bad news for you. We will start with the bad news. The bad news is, you're wrong. What exactly is "he" wrong on.

As far as mathematics goes, it is proven without a dout this is the only universal lauguage. Everything comes back to math.

He is wrong that mathematics is not a science. And since someone will probably read this post without reading my last one, I am going to state that mathematics is also not science. Technically, I could say we are both right, but that is no fun.
I have already explained this, to go to my quotes from my last post:

"Some thinkers see mathematicians as scientists, regarding physical experiments as inessential or mathematical proofs as equivalent to experiments. Others do not see mathematics as a science, since it does not require experimental test of its theories and hypotheses."
To be more specific:
"Mathematical realism holds that mathematical entities exist independently of the human mind. Thus humans do not invent mathematics, but rather discover it, and any other intelligent beings in the universe would presumably do the same. The term Platonism is used because such a view is seen to parallel Plato's belief in a "heaven of ideas", an unchanging ultimate reality that the everyday world can only imperfectly approximate. Plato's view probably derives from Pythagoras, and his followers the Pythagoreans, who believed that the world was, quite literally, built up by the numbers. This idea may have even older origins that are unknown to us."
So here we are, unless you want to try to argue philosophy which will no doubt fail because far smarter people have tried to argue for one over the other, and yet have no been able to show one is right over the other.

On a side note, every scripture in the bible can be explained sientifically, and/or mathematically.

Okay, explain this to me. Since it looks like you are taking the bible literally by trying to explain everything scientifically, how can the two creation stories in the bible that are right next to each other in the book of genesis possibly coexist with each other. If you wish for me to explain how Catholics you can either look at many of the threads trying to disprove the bible or if you don't feel like doing that just ask me and I'll say it again.

Also, explain to me why, if the bible is to be taken literally, how can someone live for hundreds and hundreds of years?

 

[SoD-GoD]

sci·ence (sns)
n.

The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I've got packing a suitcase down to a science.
An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.
Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
Science Christian Science.

I love always being right

Taking definitions from biast sources isn't being right MacMan.

When an electron is excited (i.e. it jumps to a higher energy level) it emits a photon.

So the photon comes from the excited electron? Good job on proving yourself wrong.

Goddamn guys, you don't even understand what MATH is

I do understand what math is, though you think I do not. Why do you think that mathematics and science's are closely related? Oh, wait, according to you, they aren't. Have you ever checked out Chemistry? Isn't chemistry a SCIENCE, or is it just my immagination that mathematics is used in that class?

Tipsy has something in his sig along the lines of "There is a 5th dimension beyond that which is known to man."

The quote implies that there is a fifth dimension, not that there aren't more.

to someone with an IQ larger than their shoe size (like myself)

For someone with an IQ larger than his shoe size, you need to learn how to use your wording. You proved my point for me in the post that you accused me of being, dare I say it, wrong.

Again, nice try.

 

[Pale_Horse]

Tipsy, am I correct in saying, you do not follow the bible word for word? If so that changes my entire debate. For I was under the impression, that you, with all the verse quoting, followed the book to a T.

So where exactly do you stand? Do you follow and come to your own interpertation, or, do you sit down and just find it a good book to read for leasure?
I mean you are kind of sending a mix messege here. One second you quote and say (basically) this is what is said and thats what i do, other is don't take it literally.
So what is it then one or the other. Please clarify.
The word "novel" is just a word put onto a book that is for entertainment. Do you think that if this word was put onto books when the bible was created that it wouldn't have that same so called stamp. I mean seriously whats the difference? Can't prove either the bible, or the Di Vinci Code to be fact. This debate will always go on unless someone proves without a doute that god is either not real or is real.

Lastly you keep saying politics and religion what do you interperate is the difference between them. To me they are essentially the same. It all boils down to belief. Name me a war that wasn't fought on belief. You cant because weather it's over land, religion, money ect. It is still belief.

The term of faith is to me just a answer to everything in religion. Why do you have faith? What is it that you hold so dear, that faith can not waver within you. I mean, if the devil himself struck you down you would be ok wouldn't you, because you have faith, that you will indeed go to heaven. What if their is no heaven then what. AND DON'T SAY I HAVE FAITH THEIR IS A HEAVEN!!!!!!!!! grrrr lol.

You have said on a few ocassions that you are not sure what you would doin certain situations, becuase you have not lived those situations out. Let me give you a little inside on me and why I have no faith.

When I was young I had a friend, her mother died from cancer. Her father after this became a alcoholic, then shortly after, becane to rape his daughter (my friend) thinking it was the only way he could really remember his wife. (Whatever the hell that means) Needless to say this girl committed suicide from overdose on pills. So according to the bible, she will go to hell for suicide, while the father, who is truely sorry for his deeds, will repent and go to heaven. How the hell can you believe this is just. What god would send a innocent teen to hell for what she saw as her only way out, but let this sick bastard go to heaven. How can you have faith in a god after something like this. Faith is bull! She was in a highly religious family and belived faith would save her from this personal hell she was in.

You have faith, in a belief and a god who, has abbondoned you. You are nothing without your faith, and theirfore cling to it as a lifeline. Because life has no meaning for you without faith. Well guess what, maybe just maybe, that is how everyone feels. Faith to me is as empty as the meaning of life. To reinterate I do believe their is a god, but, I dont believe we have any purpose, nor do we have any set pattern within our lives that will lead us to where we must be.

Now can you see where I am coming from? If you need more to go by ask me I can deffinitlly tell you about my daughter.

 

[Tipsy]

Tipsy, am I correct in saying, you do not follow the bible word for word? If so that changes my entire debate. For I was under the impression, that you, with all the verse quoting, followed the book to a T.

So where exactly do you stand? Do you follow and come to your own interpertation, or, do you sit down and just find it a good book to read for leasure?
I mean you are kind of sending a mix messege here. One second you quote and say (basically) this is what is said and thats what i do, other is don't take it literally.
So what is it then one or the other. Please clarify.

Well, since I haven't done a rant on my beliefs on the bible for probably months, I will just go all out on answering this. Well, when I really started reading the bible, before I became a Roman Catholic, I did it just as any other person would, I just read it. People try to disprove the bible all the time with all of the problems that are supposively in it. There are the obvious ones, which are actually the easiest to explain, such as when I put the guy living for hundreds and hundreds of years. Then there are the subtle, but much larger one, like how the two creation stories in the book of Genesis cannot possibly coexist. Instead of doing what many people do, and just say the bible is a bunch of bull, I went further to study it, because obviously if billions of people believed in it, there had to be a reason.

So, I was doing this all when I was a freshman in high school. It wasn't until I got an English teacher who was crazy about how to read literature that it hit me. If in order to read a lot of classic books, I need to know the background history, why should the bible be any different? So, I looked at the background history is when the bible actually started making sense. Now, to be more specific I'll talk about the Old Testament and the New Testament separately, since they are incredibly different.

The Old Testament was written over two thousand years ago. There has been quite a bit of change in culture between an eastern culture from over two thousand years ago and the western culture of today. There is one massive difference between the and now in how they read the Old Testament. It was written on spiritual importance, and factual importance took a far off second. On the other hand, in today's culture we are obsessed with facts. If one thing is even minutely off, it is wrong. This is the big historical background thing.

Now is the thing that is the real pain, the Hebrew language. The Old Testament was obviously written in Hebrew. And Hebrew, to put it mildly, is a bit different than English. First off, there are no numbers in Hebrew. There is nothing like the Arabic numerals or roman numerals. Numbers in the Hebrew language are words with double meanings. The example I always give is with the number seven. The number seven, written, 7, 77, 770, 70, etc, always has the symbolic meaning of perfection behind it. For example, the universe was created in seven days. It was created perfectly.

Onto the New Testament. The big difference between them other than the time period difference between them is that it was written in Greek. The Greek language is a lot closer to the languages today than Hebrew is, and it doesn't have as many of the crazy symbols and such in it.

Now, the bible as a whole. The bible is basically the moral code given by God through divine inspiration. To put it in very simple terms, it means that God tells the person what to write, but God cannot violate the free will that he gave man. So, the morality of God's word is in the bible, but the person writing it may write something like the creation stories. This is putting divine inspiration very simply so people get a just of what it is, it is more complex than just that though.

The other thing you need to notice is if you look for a lot of teachings, they are in parables and stories and such. Some of the most well known things in the bible are the stories told by Jesus such as 'The Good Samaritan." There are many parables which to not blatantly state the moral, but Jesus says something and then gives a story explaining it in a scenario.

To sum it all up, the biggest problem with people in general today is they don't take the time to understand the bible. I am not only talking about atheists and agnostics, but even fellow Christians and fellow Roman Catholics. The thing is, it is a moral code. It is a spiritual book. In all honesty, I could really care less if most of the stories which everyone questions such as Noah's Arc really happened, they are there to teach us, not to be a history book.

The New Testament can be taken more literal than the Old Testament, but don't expect it to be right on every little detail. I could care less if Jesus went to Jerusalem on Tuesday October 2, 20 AD or Wednesday October 3, 20 AD (Note: those dates are made up). One of the reasons that I think Jesus created his church on the earth was to stop what happened to Judaism with Christianity. Jesus could have cared less if you ate pork or not. But, what he does want to you follow are the Ten Commandments, the actual law of God.

So, if you still feel like reading my post after all of that, I will continue.

Lastly you keep saying politics and religion what do you interprate is the difference between them. To me they are essentially the same. It all boils down to belief. Name me a war that wasn't fought on belief. You cant because weather it's over land, religion, money ect. It is still belief.

I can't name a war that wasn't made on a belief. Now, you name me a war that follows both of these two phrases: There is only one God and you shall love your neighbor. That is what the Catholic Church is based off of. There is never a war justified in the name of God. To go back to the example from a previous post when you talked about Al Queda. They claim that they are doing a jihad, when in reality the word jihad literally translates from Arabic to English meaning "to do the right thing."

The term of faith is to me just a answer to everything in religion. Why do you have faith? What is it that you hold so dear, that faith can not waver within you. I mean, if the devil himself struck you down you would be ok wouldn't you, because you have faith, that you will indeed go to heaven. What if their is no heaven then what. AND DON'T SAY I HAVE FAITH THEIR IS A HEAVEN!!!!!!!!! grrrr lol.

Well, if there is no heaven, I won't be in existence to worry about it, will I. Though that was kind of a smartass answer, it does make a point. In this life I believe in God with a passion. If you have ever seen someone tell a three year old or someone that Santa Clause doesn't exist, they look at you like you like you are crazy. I have been convinced through a combination of study and for lack of a better word, personal revelation, that the God of Abraham does exist. There is a phrase that a priest in my diocese uses, if you want to play ball with Jesus, be ready for him to throw it back at you.

When I was young I had a friend, her mother died from cancer. Her father after this became a alcoholic, then shortly after, becane to rape his daughter (my friend) thinking it was the only way he could really remember his wife. (Whatever the hell that means) Needless to say this girl committed suicide from overdose on pills. So according to the bible, she will go to hell for suicide, while the father, who is truely sorry for his deeds, will repent and go to heaven. How the hell can you believe this is just. What god would send a innocent teen to hell for what she saw as her only way out, but let this sick bastard go to heaven. How can you have faith in a god after something like this. Faith is bull! She was in a highly religious family and belived faith would save her from this personal hell she was in.

You have faith, in a belief and a god who, has abbondoned you. You are nothing without your faith, and theirfore cling to it as a lifeline. Because life has no meaning for you without faith. Well guess what, maybe just maybe, that is how everyone feels. Faith to me is as empty as the meaning of life. To reinterate I do believe their is a god, but, I dont believe we have any purpose, nor do we have any set pattern within our lives that will lead us to where we must be.

Now can you see where I am coming from? If you need more to go by ask me I can deffinitlly tell you about my daughter.

I have a few things to respond to in the scenario. The lines put along with God, all powerful, all merciful, all knowing, all understanding, etc, are said without their weight really being recognized. I personally believe that God will forgive anyone who asks for it from him. When your friend killed herself, she killed her body, not the most important part of herself, her soul. Sin isn't something where God has a tally board and goes, lying +1 point, murder +10 points, etc. Everything is relative. Your friend from what I can understand from your post killed herself because of the pain she lived in. God is as I put it, all understanding.

You have faith, in a belief and a god who, has abbondoned you. You are nothing without your faith, and theirfore cling to it as a lifeline. Because life has no meaning for you without faith. Well guess what, maybe just maybe, that is how everyone feels. Faith to me is as empty as the meaning of life. To reinterate I do believe their is a god, but, I dont believe we have any purpose, nor do we have any set pattern within our lives that will lead us to where we must be.

The worst things about these types of scenarios is how common they are. Something bad happens and poof, there goes God, when it is that time in their life that they need him the most. From how my religion understand God, he does not violate our free will. All the sin in the world is caused by people using their elective power to sin. God does not control every person you see, he let's them decide what they do. It is them who choose to sin.

Well, that concludes one of the longest posts I have written in awhile.

 

[Pale_Horse]

I must conclude this debate, for I have nothing left to say. I have misunderstood you in many of your posts. From what I am reading within this latest one, you, do not look at the bible as a means to live, but more as a guide to better your life. (If I assume correctlly that is. Please correct me if I am wrong.) Many people take in the bible ford for word, thinking if they stray one way or another they are damned. This is where I highly differ. For me I take away all that I can that is positive, to help me along in my life. I see faith as many put it, as a crutch. I believe in myself, and I know what I am capably of. Same goes for the most part with the way I view others. You could call it ...... Trust.
I like I have said believe in a god, but I do not follow everything that he says to. I live by a good moral foundation, of do unto others.
I actually pictured from your posts that you were more of a mindless follower, because you needed meaning. I was wrong, and for this I appologies. You and I are in reality bantering about, for lack of a better term, two sides of the same coin. Only main difference that I see, is that you have faith in everything working out for the better, to where I have seen too many bad things in life, and wish it would stop.
Do not get me wrong, no one thing that happened in my life caused meto loose faith, but, many things, that when happened, seemed to build in me that "god" was not worth my time and effort to trust in.
I think I'm going around in circles here, and hopefully clarify, when I am more coheirent, and awake.
Thank you for this discussion, and I again apologies for the misunderstanding, of my view of who I percieved you as. You are indeed a stronger person than I, when it comes to "trusting" in the lords ways. I hold you in high regards for this, and for me thats not a common thing.
Lastly, it has been a real honor to have this debate with you. Hopefully we can do this again on some other topic.