'The Versailles System was doomed to failure as long as the Soviet Union and the Unit

D.F.I.

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I got this question from an essay. Here is a summary of it. What do you think?

After the first World War, the two main powers in the world were the USA, under the leadership of Woodrow Wilson, and the USSR- the newly revolutionised, newly Communist Russia, under the leadership of Vladimir Lenin.

It was decided by the European states that had been affected by the war that Germany was the responsible party, and as a result must face the consequences for her actions. This was to be discussed at conferences sat to settle up a treaty, to be known in the future as the treaty of Versailles, or the Versailles System. Even though the US and USSR were the two greatest and potentially the most influential powers in the world, neither of them were deeply involved with the Versailles system, with the US dropping out after a few talks, and the USSR not participating from the beginning.

The formation of the treaty of Versailles began on 18th January 1919 in the Quai d'Orsay (at the French Foreign Ministry). It officially concluded on the 7th of May when the peace terms were presented to the German delegation. 32 states were officially represented but the whole conference only came together six times. Ultimately, the talks were dominated by the 'big four': President Wilson of the USA, Prime Minister Lloyd George of Great Britain, Premier Clemenceau of France and Prime Minister Orlando of Italy. The manner of the negotiations has often been criticised by historians; Sally Marks described how the big four 'proceeded in slipshod fashion without agenda, minutes, or any record of decisions until the secretary of the British delegation, the supremely efficient Colonel Sir Maurice Hankey, insinuated himself into their midst and rescued them from disaster. Even then the agenda darted from topic to topic, and the big four were startlingly erratic in either accepting, ignoring or rejecting expert reports.'

The main points and aims of the Treaty in its final form were these. First came the War guilt clause. This was to make Germany accept blame for starting the war and this led to the reparation bill. The Reparations, possibly the most famous (and crippling and ill-advised) aspects of the treaty, came to around £6600 million. Germany was not consulted in the negotiation of this figure. There were also restrictions on Armed forces. The army was limited to 100,000, conscription was banned, Germany was not allowed submarines, aircraft or armoured vehicles, and was only granted permission to possess 6 battleships. The Rhineland area was demilitarised. There were of course carvings- up of German territories and colonies. Its overseas empire was taken away and its colonies became mandates to the UK and France. For example, the Alsace-Lorraine was to be returned to France. Finally there was the small matter of the League of Nations; Germany wasn't invited to join until she proved that she was a peace loving country.

Woodrow Wilson was responsible for the bulk of the Treaty of Versailles in its original form and its terms were greatly supported and loved by the general European public, but those in charge in France and Britain were bent on exacting revenge on Germany, for the destruction she had caused. It took much debate, but eventually Wilson encouraged the European powers to sign the treaty, but on his return home, he found it a far greater challenge to get the treaty passed through Congress. This was a challenge he failed to complete and the treaty was rejected. One reason for this rejection was the strength of Congressional opponents, who also gained popularity and support from the American public.

In shunning the treaty, America was also shunning Europe in general, with many politicians wishing to adopt an isolationist approach. Most of Americans believed that staying out of Europe would be beneficial. Wilson too saw the flaws of Versailles; he knew that excessive vengeance on Germany would cause another war, as the reparations demanded of Germany would lead to hostility and as a result form the path towards a second great war.

Even though the Americans opted out of Europe's main administration and political set up, it did not keep out of the scheme entirely. It realised that due to the reparations imposed on Germany its economy would collapse and they wouldn't be able to pay the allies anything. A direct consequence of this would be Britain not being able to repay the USA for all it had borrowed. In order to aid Germany, the United States made loans to it for reconstruction purposes. This eventually reached the amount of $2.8 billion dollars. This gesture to help the Germans was supposed to make the British and American economies stronger. Instead, it weakened the economy because Germany could not pay their out-standing debts.

In 1924 the Germans were offered what seemed like an ideal way to restore its economic sovereignty. Known as the Dawes plan, it was decided that the reparation payments would rise from 1 billion to 2.5 billion Rentenmarks. To achieve this, an international loan of 800 million Rentenmarks would be given to Germany. This money would be raised by the buying of German railways and industrial bonds;

'American banks bought the bonds at 87 (the English at 87.5); the bonds were sold to the public at 92, and were to be redeemed at 105. Germany, to receive 800 million Rentenmarks, had to issue bonds with a face value of 11.027 billion Rentenmarks.'#

For the Americans, this was a lucrative chance to gain immense profit. American and British investors bought up all of the bonds, often oversubscribing the bonds' issue, drastically increased the price, then sold them to make a huge profit. This was total expLoitation of Germany's attempts and desires to repay its debt.

This was quite strategic on America's part, as this ensured that although they were still giving money to Germany in the form of loans, the money made from selling these bonds was enough to make it worthwhile. Also, keeping an isolationist policy going meant that when the second great war began-an inevitable occurrence in Wilson's eyes- the US would not be bound by the treaty to take part in the war.

America's shunning of Europe was a direct opposite to the situation of the USSR.

In 1917 Russia dropped out of the war when revolution broke out. The provisional Government attempted to keep in the war, but any effort was pointless. By the time Lenin's Bolsheviks established control in October 1917, Russia was officially out of the war.

Russia played no noticeable part at all in Europe from then until 1922. From 1918-1921 it was entrenched in civil war. This involved the Reds, which included the Bolsheviks, which had members including Lenin, Stalin and Trotsky, and the Whites, members of which included Kornilov, Krasnov and Denekin. The Whites were also supported by the Allied forces. When Trotsky as commissar for war created the Red army, the sheer force of it made sure that by 1920 the three main offensives from the Whites had been repelled. At this point the allies withdrew, being the last contact that Russia would have with them for some time.

The new policies implemented in Russia by Vladimir Lenin were drastically different to anything seen before in Europe. The policy of War Communism introduced extensive nationalisation, forceful and often violent methods of grain requisition from the peasantry in the country side, harsh and forceful direction of labour and, possibly the most alien concept to Western capitalist culture, the temporary abolition of money as an object for measuring value. A state of war was observed in practically every area of everyday life- Lenin's original promise of 'Peace, land and bread' was put on the back burner in favour of obtaining a Bolshevik victory in the civil war.

These social and economic policies ensured it was shunned by the Capitalist West, and also had limited trade contact.

In February 1922 Lenin introduced the New Economic Policy, which amongst other things abolished the requisition of grain, leaving the peasants free to sell off surplus grain for profit; restoration of private enterprises in industry, making private profit legal again, and, most importantly to Russia in the context of this question, the renewal of efforts to open up trade with foreign countries. By 1924 trading links had been renewed with many of the great powers. This made the Russian state slightly more acceptable to Europe, and it gingerly attempted to bridge the gap.

In April 1922, while Lloyd George was trying to court the Russians into his favour, the Germans developed their commitment to Russia, not wanting her as a major enemy due to the close proximity in which Russia lay to Germany. The Rapallo treaty meant that Germany and Russia now had close economic and military co-operation. 'On the Russian plains, far from the prying eyes of military control commissions, Germany could and did build factories, produce the aeroplanes, poison gases and tanks forbidden by the Versailles Treaty, test them, and train military personnel, both German and Russian, in their use. While this mutually beneficial arrangement had its ups and downs, it flourished throughout the twenties and to a lesser degree until the advent of Hitler.'#
continued..........
 

D.F.I.

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continued......

When Lenin died in 1924, there was a huge internal struggle for power within the Soviet Union. The role of leadership was being contested for by members of the Bolshevik party Lev Trotsky, Grigorii Zinoviev, Nikol Bukharin, Lev Kamanev, and a man whom Lenin himself had denounced as 'too crude..a defect...unacceptable in the postion...": Josef Koba- more commonly known as Stalin.

The struggle for power within the Bolshevik party was intense and often vicious, including Stalin's prevention of Trotsky attending Lenin's funeral, which was fatal to Trotsky's campaign. It was such struggle that once more alienated Russia from Europe, as the European powers wanted nothing to do with such a broken state considering the state it was in itself.

Stalin won the leadership struggle, and after an initial period of continuation, he began to impose new proposals and regimes that involved persecution and a great deal of repression. This drove the Soviet Union even further away from the rest of Europe. Not that this bothered Stalin of course; the Rapallo treaty had provided an ally in Germany, and as far as Stalin was concerned Germany was a sufficient ally.

The Capitalist West saw the Soviet Union as hostile and volatile, both internally and towards others. This opinion was cemented around 1928, when what generally became known as the Great Terror began. Here was the beginning of Stalin's reign in blood, and the Capitalist West wanted nothing to do with it.

In 1926 the Preparatory Commission for the Disarmament Conference met for the first time. All major powers were represented, with Russia joining in 1927 when the Foreign Minister, Maxim Litvinov proposed that all powers should disarm immediately and completely to the level of the German disarmament.# However, all the other powers rejected this as it was viewed as an attempt to clear a path for Communist expansion. The Commission's final meeting was held in November 1930. A majority vote approved the guarantee of the rights and military treaties from other guarantees remaining. Unsurprisingly, Russia and Germany voted against this. Once again, Russia was at odds with the rest of the European powers.

This is how the West's relationship with Russia continued throughout the 1920s and 1930s, and the animosity stayed strong all up until Germany attempted to invade Russia in 1941. From then onwards, the Allies and Russia were united once more for one reason- to defeat Germany.

So, in retrospective, how important was the lack of participation from the USA and USSR in the Versailles system to its failure? There are many conclusions that can be made from this. Firstly, it could be argued that the isolationism adopted by the USA was due to the fact that Wilson knew that the terms of the treaty were unreasonable and would ultimately lead to another war. Wilson's lack of faith in the system and the USA's subsequent withdrawal could have been a self-fulfilling prophecy for the system. The fact that the USA was, after all thousands of miles away from Europe may have added to Wilson's objective approach when considering the allies' demands on Germany. For example, to Clemenceau, head of a country who had just lost millions of men, and had lost immense amounts of money in the war, it would be difficult to contemplate the consequences of their demands. To France, the demanding of millions of pounds of compensatory reparations would have seemed totally justified and reasonable. The same would apply for the UK and indeed almost any other state that had been severely damaged 'by' Germany and the war. However, to Wilson, who had lost a miniscule proportion of his military, and actually stood to gain money from the Allies in repayment of borrowed gold and weapons, the demands placed upon Germany would obviously show to be too high. He saw clearly what the demands would do to the country; that, crippled by the debt caused by the reparations, added to the already immense loss caused by the actual costs of war itself, Germany's economy would collapse internally and would seek outside help (from the USA) and eventually would seek someone to blame for their situation- namely states such as France and the UK. In other words, the penalty of reparation would lead to immense discontent and financial disorder, and would pave the path to World War two.

It could be suggested that if the USA had stayed in the Versailles system, Wilson may have been able to eventually dissuade the Allies from milking Germany for all she had. Consequentially, the country wouldn't have suffered so greatly economically, the people may not have been so discontented, and they may not have been inclined to vote for the Nazi party (one of the reasons the party was voted for was because it promised to restore the economy to the greatness it had once been accustomed to).

The lack of participation in the system from the USSR is a different story. It is generally accepted that up to 1923, when Russia was deep in its civil war, any participation in the Versailles system would have been farcical; if the country couldn't look after its own internal affairs, how could it be hoped that it would be able to make any sensible decisions, or have any useful impact on matters of the international variety?

Secondly, once the authority of the Bolsheviks had been reaffirmed, Russia was to experience another setback that would affect its bearing on the outside world. On January 21 1924, Lenin died. What followed was an intense battle for leadership of the Bolshevik government, won subsequently by Josef Stalin, as mentioned earlier. However, while the leadership contest was going on, the situation within the USSR maintained a steady decline. Without the steady and trusted leadership of Comrade Lenin, nobody was totally sure what to do regarding the running of the country; and again, without control in one's own country, influence in another is pointless.

Thirdly, the political divide between Russia and the rest of the Western world was greatly instrumental in its participation. The very fact that Russia was the first Communist superstate and the rest of the West was wholly Capitalist had an immense bearing on other countries' opinions of the USSR. It was generally seen as a force not to be trusted, and was looked upon with much caution. The demands and aims of the allies were for the acquisition of money to mend their dented economies; helping them to achieve this was not a main priority of Russia, and by 1928 Stalin was pre-occupied with the 5 year plans for the industrialisation of Russia. The fact that Russia had signed an alliance with Germany, which allowed them to exercise weapons training and other activities on Russian soil was another factor in the shunning of the USSR by the Western Allies.

So then, ultimately, did the non-participatiojn by the US and USSR have any major bearing on the failure of the Versailles system? Well, with all points taken into account, there is little to suggest that this is the case. Apart from the theory that the US may have been able to dissuade the Allies from demanding so much of Germany there is very little to suggest that there would have been any major influence on the system by either of the powers. The USA, after all, kept out of the system by choice, mainly for politically strategic reasons. If it was directly affiliated to a system that Wilson knew was doomed to failure as long as the Allies continued to make impossible demands, then when the predicted war came, the US would be bound to fight immediately in a war that ultimately didn't affect them. Also, by keeping out and instead offering its services as a neutral money lender and thus profiteer, the US could maintain a 'biased neutrality' in which it could claim ideological support for the Allies without having any official ties, but at the same time could aid Germany in its economical strifes brought on by the Versailles system.

And, while the US kept out of the system by its own choice, the USSR was more usually kept out by others. France didn't want to co-operate with Russia due to its affiliation with Germany, and although Lloyd George made half-hearted attempts to coax Russia into the international system, mainly his attempts failed on the grounds that Stalin was generally too busy with industrialisation anyway to bother with international affairs which he regarded to be of no consequence to the development of the USSR.

It can be assumed then that whether the two main powers of the US and USSR had been involved in the Versailles system or not, ultimately it would have ended in failure. One of the major causes of unrest and the election of the Nazi party, and the subsequent second world war was the immense crippling to the German economy caused by the reparations imposed on them by the Allies. Unless the participation of either of the powers would have made the Allies alter the treaty of Versailles, and change it to something that would not kill Germany's economy, which wouldn't lead to the intense hatred and disarray that spawned the Second World War, it is unlikely that the participation of either of them would have affected the outcome and fate of the system.

The system was indeed doomed from the beginning, but not due to the lack of participation from the two major powers. The reasons for its pre-determined doom were far more close to home, with its very own aims and demands being the basis. Far from blaming the likes of Wilson for bailing out, or Stalin for 'collaborating with the enemy', in regard to the failure of the System of Versailles, the main Allied leaders had no-one to blame but themselves.
so, what do you think?
 

Towelie

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He is just talking about the versailles treaty after wwi. If it is a question, i don't see it cos im not reading all of that. I allready know it all ^^. Though, the French caused world war 2. It WAS the French. If the French didn't push for punishing germans they would have been cool thanks french. But the french are like "we are weak, we suck balls, but we have the backing of the U.S. so we will bitchslap Germany. Germany is like BITCH!!! and then the first year in 1939 of ww2 france is taken, once again, and what was to stop the germans? A magino wall across some of frances' border which slowed the germans down like 5 minutes.
 

Jaden

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THATS THE QUESTION?!?!?! tell me what course ur doing so i can AVOID it.. sorry im sure its great but i couldn't be bothered reading it!
 

yogibear990

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is there actually a question in there??? I read it, and I couldn't find anything, if that was a statement, which had a later quesiton, all good...
 

MacMan

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Towelie- you're an idiot, the French alone didn't cause wwii (and the germans didn't even cross their eastern border dumb ass). Wilson tried pushing his 14 points, but the other allies had suffered much more damage, economically and casualties, so they felt a punishment should have been more harsh. Russia especially, they had lost the most men. Any ways, Wilson was the only one who could see the importance of not imposing harsh punishment, but the others agreed and gave Germany 30 billion in reparations, the other central powers were much well off because they hadn't done as much.

And to whomever made this thread, how about frigging paraphrasing your question next time?
 

elfstone

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There is a problem I find with this article. Namely that Russia continually tried to get the other western nations to stop Germany when they started taking territory. They eventually gave up and in order to preserve their nation became involved in the non agression pact. Considering the state they were in who can blame them for self preservation.
Also missing was mentions of britain's non involvement until poland was taken. After all who can forget the famous quote "I have acheived peace in out time." From our good friend Neville (i hope i spelled right)
Also the french not resisting the germans until war was already declared was a problem.
The theory is interesting, but it seems to ignore a lot of important stuff.
 

elfstone

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So just read it and react. Say what you think of it. Like I agree or I disagree, or pick out certain points and say what you think. At least that's what I did.

Oh and btw what is the end of the question, you kinda got cut off there.
 

elfstone

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Many including me beleive that the treaty was what caused WWII. This seems to be a point in the article. By refusing to join in this pact it seems to be that the 2 countries mentioned were making a point of not involving themselves. It seemd to me that the U.S. was trying to help out Germany.
Although I seem to remember hearing that Russia was excluded for some reason.
 

x42bn6

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The Treaty was one of the reasons. Germany didn't have too much time to recover before the US Stock Market crash caused resentment. Germany had already suffered enough through the rules, and so they turned to Hitler.
 

Cert

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france caused ww2? i thought it was cuz of austria-hungry and some little country were fighting over land right and alliances pulled a bunch of countries into the fray and then hitler came and wanted to kill the jews/gays/everyone else that wasnt pure german
 
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