Just to show you how much of a geek I really am

[TrongaMonga]

So I joined a new guild, and they won't let me raid as elemental (yes, I'm resto now). So, this is something I made in the Revelations forum after doing a Brutallus fight as elemental. Have fun reading:

Allright, as you all should know by now, I’m a weirdo that likes an underrated spec and actually believes it to be quite viable. But because we’re all pros, I don’t expect you to believe me without any kind of empirical evidence.

That being said, there are some circumstances that need to be attained. First thing, the usual ‘elemental does not provide much more buffs than a resto and more DPS than a warlock’. The keyword that invalidates this sentence as a proper logical counter-argument is and. No, Elementals can’t do both, at the same time.

What do I mean with this? I’ll illustrate it with three cases of a group setup.

For argument reasons, consider each Warlock DPS as 2200 DPS, the Shadow Priest DPS as 1500, and the Elemental Shaman DPS as 1750. Then, let’s consider that Resto shamans and Elemental shamans total contribution value to the party is exactly the same, for this illustration only. Let’s say, that value is x.

Now, let us imagine we have three different group setups, and let us consider how much raid DPS that is. Consider raid full, full tank spots, full healer spots, and full DPS spots, and two different groups with these setups:

Being SP = Shadow Priest, Wl = Warlock, ES = Elemental Shaman and RS = Resto Shaman.

Setup 1 –

Group 1: SP | Wl | Wl | Wl | ES
Group 2: SP | Wl | Wl | Wl | RS

DPS1: (1500 + 3 x 2200 + 1750 + x) + (1500 + 3 x 2200 + x) = 2 x (1500 + 3 x 2200) + 1750 + 2x = 17950 + 2x

Setup 2 -

Now the raid leaders decide they need another healer, so they take a resto shaman instead of the elemental:

Group 1: SP | Wl | Wl | Wl | RS
Group 2: SP | Wl | Wl | Wl | RS

DPS2: (1500 + 3 x 2200 + x) + (1500 + 3 x 2200 + x ) = 2 x (1500 + 3 x 2200) + 2x = 16200 + 2x

Obviously, the loss here is the DPS of that elemental shaman. No matter what, it will always be less DPS than Setup 1.

Setup 3 –

The raid leaders decide that elemental sucks and swap him out for a warlock:

Group 2: SP | Wl | Wl | Wl | Wl
Group 2: SP | Wl | Wl | Wl | RS

DPS3: (1500 + 4 x 2200) + (1500 + 3 x 2200 + x) = 2 x (1500 + 3 x 2200) + 2200 + x = 18400 + x

So what is the necessary condition to have DPS1 > DPS2?

Let’s see.

17950 + 2x > 18400 + x <2x> 18400 – 17950 <color> 450[/color]

Now, 450 is exactly the difference between that Warlocks DPS and the Elemental Shaman DPS (2200 – 1750 = 450). What this means is, that in order for the Elemental to be worth his spot, his DPS added to his contribution to that group must be higher than the Warlocks DPS.

Now, what is this contribution? People keep insisting that it is only Totem of Wrath, but that is a fallacy. In order for this to happen, you would have to have a single group setup with both a resto shaman and an elemental shaman. And that’s just fail. No, the buffs elemental shamans bring to the table are Totem of Wrath, Wrath of Air, Mana Spring and Heroism.

Now, let me show you that this premise can actually be achieved, by using last Wednesday’s WWS Logs of Brutallus death (June 25th 2008):

Link - Wow Web Stats
Screenshot (if outdated) – http://xs328.xs.to/xs328/08266/raid499.jpg

One thing we need to considerate here, is that WWS shows active DPS and not effective DPS. It does not take into consideration the time you’re moving if you get burn, or spell pushbacks, etc. No, it only counts the time you’re actually DPSing. This being said, and considering the group constituted by Mexes, Moop, Quteone, Pouille and Trivial, let us calculate the effective DPS done by each:

Effective DPS = Damage Done / Fight time

Fight time being of six minutes and six seconds, or 366 seconds.

Mexes DPS = 495499/366 = 1353.82
Moop DPS = 840363/366 = 2296.07
Quteone DPS = 837593/366 = 2288.51
Pouille DPS = 767459/366 = 2096.88
Trivial DPS = 619281/366 =1692.02
Total DPS = 9727.3

Now, I could calculate the DPS I gave to each person, but I will only do the warlocks contributions. This is because Mexes contribution is a pain in the ass (as he uses like 6 spells, and some crit, some don’t, but I’ll address this later). You will see, however, that without even adding my contribution to Mexes, I already pass the average effective DPS a warlock does.

In order to do this, we must go trough phases. Let us consider Moop as a guinea pig, and keep in mind that the effective DPS calculated there already considers misses, partial resists and moving.

First step would be to calculate exactly how much of his damage came from my Heroism.

Heroism damage for this fight is calculated trough (40 x 1.3 + 326 x 1) / 366, or, explaining, 40 seconds of 1.3 damage plus the rest of fight worth 1 damage, divided by full duration of the fight to get a percentage.

This will give us a heroism power of 1.033, or 3.3% DPS increase for the whole fight.

Meaning, that if Moop did 840363 DPS with Heroism included, 3.3% of that is from Heroism alone. Therefore,

840363 x 0.033 = 27732

Or, in terms of DPS, 27732 / 366 = 75.77 DPS

Now, we must go for Totem of Wrath. In order to do this, we must understand exactly how crit benefits the DPSer. Let us consider, according WWS, that Moop uses Shadowbolt and Shadowbolt only (http://xs128.xs.to/xs128/08266/moop381.jpg). The formula for damage would then be:

Damage = Spell damage x Spell Coefficient x Spell Bonus (raid debuffs, additive) x Spell Hit x Mitigation x Crit Value

Evidently, the only thing I care about is to calculate ToW’s worth in Crit Value, so I can consider doing a relative difference between the Crit Value with ToW and Crit Value without ToW. Therefore, I can literally scrap all of the other parts and get to this formula:

Damage from ToW = Total Damage – (Total Damage/(Damage (with ToW)/Damage (without ToW))

Or, damage from ToW is the difference between total value of the damage and the damage that would exist if ToW was not there.

Now, what exactly is Crit Value? Simply put, it is the coefficient involving damage done by crits and damage done by normal hits.

In the case of a Warlock, with Ruin and Chaotic Skyfire Diamond, a critical score hits for 2.09 times more than a normal hit. Here’s the logic behind this:

With Ruin, warlock’s critical strike damage bonus is 100% more than what your critical strikes are without it, so you take the damage increase from a critical strike and multiply it by 2. Now the gem says 3% increased critical damage, which doesn't mean +3% bonus damage it means 3% more total, so you take the damage a critical strike would do and then add 3% to that value.

However, I am not adding the crit value of Improved Shadowbolt (as it is a debuff that works with crit), but I am including it further below considering that, with 3 destruction warlocks, that debuff is up 100% of the time.

Thus

150% x 1.03 = 154.5% (Total damage from a crit with this gem but without ruin)
154.5% - 100% = 54.5% (Bonus damage from a crit with this gem but without ruin)
54.5% X 2 = 109% (bonus damage with ruin and gem)
100%+109% = 209% (damage done by a critical with gem and ruin)

So what does this all mean? It means that the formula to calculate Crit Value is exactly equal to:

(2.09 x crit%) + 1 x (100% - crit%). Do notice that the sum of both parcels is 100%. Meaning, this formula indicates the damage crit is responsible for, and adds it the rest.

That being said, let us take a look at Moop’s armory, where we can see he has 30.97% Shadow Bolt critical chance, let us consider raid buffs, which includes 40 intellect from mages, 19 from talented druids and 10% intellect from kings. These 3 alone gives, and considering that 1% crit = 81.92 int for a level 70 warlock (Attributes - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft), a total of 65 intellect. Add this to the bonus he gets from BoK and his base intellect, 485. Total is 113, or 113/81.92 = 1.38% crit. This adds his crit, with raid buffs only, up to 32.35%. Now, we add Imp Judgement of the Crusader, which I assume was up. That’s 35.35% crit without ToW.

So we calculate Crit Value without ToW:

(2.09 x 0.3535) + (1 - 0.3535) = 1.385

Now, we calculate Crit Value with ToW:

(2.09 x 0.3835) + (1 - 0.3835) = 1.418

So, using the formula up there, we get, and considering we had already calculated damage contribution from Heroism, thus we only use damage that would have been done without heroism (840363 - 27732 = 812631), we have:

Damage from ToW = 812631 - (812631/(1.418/1.385)) = 18912 damage, or 51.67 DPS

Now let us go further, and calculate how much DPS Wrath of Air gives.

As I said up there,

Damage = Spell damage x Spell Coefficient x Spell Bonus (raid debuffs, additive) x Spell Hit x Mitigation x Crit Value

This being said, let’s go to http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_Damage_Coeffi...ck_Coefficients and see that Shadow Bolt has 85.71% (105.71% with Shadow and Flame) of Spell coefficient.

Therefore, considering he is hit capped, that, according to WWS, mitigation was of 3.5%, that the raid debuffs are Curse of Shadows (0.10 value), Improved Shadow Bolt (0.20 value), Demonic Sacrifice (0.15 value), Misery (0.05 value) and Shadow Weaving (0.10 value), and finally considering that ToW value was already calculated, so the crit value here is without ToW, this is what we expect:

Damage = 101 x 1.0571 x (1 + (0.10 + 0.20 + 0.15 + 0.05 + 0.10) x 0.99 x (1 – 0.035) x 1.385 = 226.031

Now, to calculate DPS, we need to consider that this is damage done by each Shadow Bolt. It has a base cast time of 2.5 seconds (talented), but we need to take haste into consideration. Now, Moop has 159 base haste, Gul'dan gives him an averaged value of 29.16 haste. Drums last 30 seconds, we had 6 drums in 366 seconds. Hence: (6 x 30 / 366) x 80 = 39.34 haste. Grand total, 227.5 haste, equaling 14.49% spell cast increase.

From Casting speed - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft, we get this formula:
New Casting Time = Base Casting Time / (1 + (Spell Haste Rating/1570))
Using those values, we have
New Casting time = 2.5 / (1 + (227.5/1570)) = 2.18
Average cast equals 2.18 seconds, so this is what we divide our value above with and get 103.68 dps gain from WoA.

Now, we sum it all up:

Heroism gain + ToW gain + WoA gain = 75.77 + 51.67 + 103.68 = 231.12

This value was obtained by using a calculator, and rounding up a lot of numbers. However, I did this in Excel, and without rounds, and the true result I obtained was of 227.70 DPS Moop gained from me.

A little note here: I am not considering Mana Spring for this effect because, even though it has uses, the fact that our group had a shadow priest, and that warlocks can Life Pact, pretty much throws down whatever contribution this gave to the warlocks. However, for argument's sake, if we consider that, in order to have mana tide on this group, we would be facing Setup 2 (as listed in the top), Raid DPS would always be inferior.

Now let’s see Quteone:

From armory, we can see he has 28.76% base crit, 468 intellect and 161 spell haste rating. Also, 3.5% Shadow Bolt mitigation from WWS. Taking this into consideration, we obtain Quteone DPS as equal to 227.30.

Pouille:

26.14% base crit, 501 intellect, 109 spell haste and 2% Shadow Bolt mitigation. Therefore, Pouille’s DPS is 217.57.

Adding up all the contribution from the 3 warlocks, I did extra 672.57 DPS, hidden from the caremeters. Adding that to my 1692.02 DPS from my effective DPS, I did 2364.59 actual DPS, without considering Mexes.

If we would want to consider having a fourth Warlock instead of me, and considering as what his DPS would be the average value of Moop, Quteone and Pouille’s DPS without my contribution (because we’re considering here that we’re getting rid of one shaman, which would involve that even if he was in another group, he wouldn’t get totems), the obtained result is as follows:

Moop = 2296.07 – 227.70 = 2068.37
Quteone = 2288.51 – 227.30 = 2061.21
Pouille = 2096.88 – 217.57 = 1879.31

Average = 2002.96

Difference between my actual DPS (without Mexes) and this is 361.63 DPS.

Now, you could argue this warlock would bring an extra curse. However, seeing there are three warlocks already, this means we have Curse of Elements, Curse of Recklessness and Curse of Shadows covered. Meaning, this fourth warlock's raid DPS contribution would be null, and he would bring in Curse of Agony. Would it be enough? I don’t think so. Even because there are two things to consider:

a) I did not use Mexes contribution. However, I asked in WoW Shaman forums for some help, and this awesome guy made some maths for me (actually, I asked him by logging into his server and sending him a mail).

Thread - http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?t...=1&pageNo=1

His maths:


Moop: 227,97
Quteone: 227,64
Pouille: 221,88
Mexes: 199,63

As you can see, his results were quite similar, but for argument’s sake let’s say Mexes did about 195 more thanks to me. That final result goes up to 556.63.

b) My gear is not in pair with this guild’s DPSers. If you check that thread, you will see some WWS logs and Recount screenshots of shamans doing up to 2150 Active DPS. Considering mine was 1750, this means that, with proper gear, I could do between 300-400 more DPS, pre-Muru. This heightens my actual DPS to nearly 3000 (2364.59 + 195 + 350 = 2909.59). Which isn’t bad at all.

In conclusion:

No matter what the care meters say, this example of one Brutallus kill (even though it’s only one, it is the prime DPS example fight) shows mathematic evidence that elemental shamans are not only quite viable, but also a very good addition to the raid composition when DPS is required.

Elemental shamans can not be considered as a possible healer, but rather as a DPS slot that is not only quite decent DPS alone, but also brings a lot of contribution to the table. Also, it’s an amazing kiter (99% chance to hit with a 6 seconds cooldown instant double threat 50% slow spell), a decent off-healer, and an armoured caster that can even come back to life if things go bogus.

I hope this thread served to at least make people think. I will still do what the raid leaders want me to, restoration or elemental, but at least I tried to defend the spec I literally love. This means that I can not only provide the buffs to the casters at the right time (like in Supremus, I kept casting totems even while we were moving), but I will also not fail with gearing up my shaman, because, as elemental shamans scale quite well with gear, any minor mistake is unforgiving.

Any questions, comments, feel free to shoot.

No, I’m not a nerd, thanks.

 

[TrongaMonga]

Then, after being told that Mana Tide + resto Mana Spring > ToW, I proved them wrong as well, with three different posts:

Anyway, regarding mana totems/mana tide totem.

Here's the deal, an elemental's Mana Spring gives 50 mp5, which in a 366 s fight is exactly 3660 mana. Resto shamans Mana Spring gives 25% more, or 4575. Add Mana Tide, which gives 4 waves of 6% mana, or 24% mana. If the caster has 10k mana, that's 2400 mana. Meaning, total of 6975 mana, which is roughly double the mana given by an Elemental.

Now, the only way I could figure to calculate the DPS given by this is by calculating exactly how many more SBs that means, from Moop. A destruction lock's SB costs 399 mana, meaning that an elemental allows him to cast 9 more SBs (rounding down from 9.17) in that brutallus fight. A resto shaman allows him to cast 17 SBs.

But, this is where the tricky part is. It might happen that they don't finish oom. And need to consider also the price of life tap on DPS. I need a WWS Log of a brutallus fight where Moop and the other locks had a resto shaman. But they're all outdated.

I'll give this a thought to see what I can do, though.

---

Allright, so I thought about this and, to be honest, I've come to one conclusion: the difference between a warlock's DPS with an elemental's Mana Spring and a restoration's Mana Spring + Mana Tide is only a matter of calculating the DPS loss of life tap, then check accordingly with how much mana that gives.

By taking a look at Moop's WWS log (http://xs129.xs.to/xs129/08276/moopbreakdown174.jpg), we can see that his life tap gives him 1920 mana. Considering the difference, in my other post, of 3315 mana between an elemental and a resto, that's the same as 1.73 life pats.

Now, how do we go about calculating the DPS loss of a life tap?

Simply put, the only DPS loss there is is the one from GCD. Moop had an average of 227.5 haste (excluding heroism), which lowers his GCD to

GCD = 1.5 / (1+(227.5/1570)) = 1.31 seconds.

Now, how to calculate it's weight in DPS? This is where the tricky part was so I had to grab figures from WWS. Moop shot a total of 163 Shadow Bolts, 62% normal hits, 38% critical hits (http://xs229.xs.to/xs229/08276/moop2807.jpg), which makes it an average of (3989*0,62+7954*0,38=) 6447.3 damage per Shadow Bolt. Considering his shadow bolt casting time is of 2.18 seconds (as calculated in the first post), each Life Pact cost him 6447.3/(2.18/1.31) = 3868.38. Considering he did 9 life taps, that's total 34815 damage, meaning his DPS loss from life taps on that fight was of 34815/840363 = 4.1%.

Now, and this is why I actually needed a WWS from a fight with a resto shaman, we could calculate the difference between elemental shaman life tap loss and resto shaman life tap loss, knowing that the difference is of 1.73 life pats.

If we do this innacurate procedure (innacurate because it's not taking into consideration the shadow priest), Moop would lose 3868.38 * (9-1.73) = 28123. Subtract this from elemental life tap loss, and you get 34615 - 28123 = 6492. Compare it with damage gained from ToW, 18912, and you see a big difference.

So, in order for a resto shaman mana totems to be able to compete with ToW, they would have to give him enough mana to compensate for 18912 damage loss of Life Tap.

With a few calculations, we get:

34615 - 18912 = 15703 (this is the balance between ToW Gain and Elemental Life Tap loss)

In order to compensate this, resto shamans would have to allow Moop to do x life taps, in the order of

3868.38 * (x) = 15703 <=> x = 4.06

Meaning, Moop would have to do 4.06 life taps to compensate for it. Would the resto shaman totems + shadow priest mana buffs be enough to compensate for the difference between 9 to 4.06. That would require the shadow priest mana contribution, thus his damage, to increase by 222%. I really, really don't think this would ever happen just because he's got resto mana totems.

I know this post is cheesy, but only because of lack of empirical evidence, which I, unfortunately, can't provide.

Edit: Made this last paragraph better, and editing values, I used a pocket calculator before and it's all wrong... Fixing that, and am gonna work in doing actual values of DPS contribution.

Coming soon.

---

Allright, so let's calculate exactly how much damage mana spring gave Moop. Considering each Mana Tap gives him 1920 mana, and my totem gave him 3580 mana, that equals 1.86 Life Taps. That is, at a rate of 3868.38 per life tap, 6143 damage. Or, in terms of DPS, 19.71.

Meaning, my total contribution to Moop was of 231.12 + 16.78 = 250,87 DPS

Doing same maths for Quteone, with the values calculated in the first post, and other values obtained from WWS logs (62% of 3818 normal hits and 38% of 8253 crits), 1933 mana per life tap, doing 8 of them, and 3540 mana from my mana spring, I obtained 247.02 DPS.

Headed for Pouille, 62% of 3914 normal hits and 38% of 7977 crits, 5 life taps of 1886 each and 3600 mana from Mana Spring, I obtained 237.29 DPS.

Mexes is a lot harder, so I'm going to try and compare warlock values with a resto shaman, then see the difference Mexes DPS would have to be to compensate for DPS contribution from both shamans.

In any case, all 3 warlocks contribution equals 735.18.

Now into considering resto shamans contribution. In order to do this, we need to consider removing the contribution from ToW, and add extra 25% from mana spring + 2400 mana from Mana Tide. I'll continue this post after the raid, or tomorrow if I don't have the time.

Edit:

Right, so no raid.

Here's the deal, I am going to use my Excel sheets to do the maths, but I can use the first post to give some help, too. So, Moop's ToW DPS value was 51.67 DPS. 125% of 3580 is 4475, with Mana Tide we get 6875 mana. That's 3.58 Life taps, or 13851.95 damage, or 37.85 DPS.

So, to the value of 231.12 DPS that I obtained from Moop on my first post, we subtract ToW value of 51.67, and add mana totems values of 37.85 That equals 217.30 DPS.

Quteone maths gives me 38.55 DPS contribution from resto mana totems, and 50.04 DPS from an elemental's ToW. Result is 227.30 - 50.04 + 38.55 = 215.81.

Pouille's ToW contribution was of 47.26 DPS, DPS from mana totems, 38.01, total was 208.32.

Meaning a resto shaman total contribution to the warlocks would be of 651.36. The difference is 83.82 DPS. Would a resto mana totem (excluding 4/5 of mana spring, since resto mana spring is 5/4 of elemental's mana spring) be enough to give the spriest enough DPS so that, minusing the contribution he'd get from ToW (to Mind Blast and SWeath) be equal to 83.82? Mexes got 3540 mana from my totem, meaning he'd get extra (3540 x 125% - 3540=) 885 mana, plus 2400 from Mana Tide, which is 3285 mana. That, minus 3% crit, would it give him extra 83.82 DPS?

Even if it happened, we can not forget the extra ~2k DPS a resto shaman can not provide. And the buffs one extra shaman always brings to yet another group. And let's not forget that ToW is only working at half capacity. If the warlocks gemmed for minus 38 spell hit (3% from ToW), the damage contribution would be even higher. Pretty much 3% of their new DPS, which, on a 2.2k DPS warlock could translate into 2.3k (thanks to more damage gems). And 3% of 2300 is 69. That, times three warlocks is 207 extra DPS. Meaning the resto shaman would need to provide ~80 + ~207 + whichever contribution 3% hit from ToW would have on the spriest.

And before you tell me that in tier6 all casters are hit capped without gemming, that is true. But take a look at Sunwell's caster tier items. How many hit does it have? That's right, zero.


---

It didn't really work, I'm still resto.

 

[Renzokuken]

TLDR.

Skipped to the bottom and you're still resto lol. Honestly though, resto is the most fun when it comes to Shamans, for me at least, back when i played. Enhancement and elemental are so routine, it's boring.

 

[Renzokuken]

TLDR.

Skipped to the bottom and you're still resto lol. Honestly though, resto is the most fun when it comes to Shamans, for me at least, back when i played. Enhancement and elemental are so routine, it's boring. When the **** hits the fan and you're not resto, there's not much else to do other than keep dpsing (Or, God forbid, off-heal). Totally different story if you're resto.

EDIT: Oh come on, i have no idea how it posted twice. Piece of **** forum.

 

[TrongaMonga]

Believe me, Resto shaman in end-game (Sunwell and BT) is the most boring class I ever played, and my priest is becoming, today, my fourth 70.

All you do is literally spam Chain Heal. Nothing more, at all.

 

[Egotistical Asshole]

Welcome to every class in the game. In the end-game raiding environment, every class is limited to their 2-6 spells/abilities they actually use. The majority of PvE is a bland and tedious rotation that becomes rather monotonous quite swiftly.

 

[TrongaMonga]

And that is why I said the most of all I played

 

[Dream_Walker]

...

So you're trying to prove what's already been proven countless times: Elemental is viable and useful in high end raid environments.

Point?

 

[TrongaMonga]

Point is, this guild I'm in, they fail at seeing maths.

But I shall prevail!

 

[Renzokuken]

Just ****ing quit. MMO's aren't worth your time. Come and play SCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC!!!!111

 

[TrongaMonga]

Are you guys playing SC? :O

 

[Renzokuken]

I reinstalled it, Wing has it as well. We were gonna play a game or two but i had to go to work. Now i'm going to bed.

 

[TrongaMonga]

Damn aussie. I'll remember that tomorrow morning

That, if I find my CD.

 

[Barney Stinson]

It's alla bout Dota.

 

[Wing Zero]

i reinstalled it, wing has it as well. We were gonna play a game or two but i had to go to work. Now i'm going to bed.

i invere uninstalled it traitorsss

 

[tKeR]

My experience with elemental shamans has been very inconsistent. I have seen great geared elemental shamans who blow on DPS meters, and I have seen mediocre geared ones do better than a lot of mages. My guild's only elemental shaman also respecced Resto for their desirability in Sunwell. Overall, they are a viable DPS class, you just need to show them you know what you are doing. You certainly sound like you've theory crafted and know your ****.

 

[johNNyboi]

TrongaMonga, this is the longest post I have ever seen and Egotistical Asshole nice sig..

 

[Kuro Neko]

In my old guild, some guy did the same arguements you did, but he was an officer so it was basically enforced in some elitist attitude, but you are right, and it's just majority that ruled over that... suckage. Being a rogue with that same idea in mind is just the complete definition of it... SPAM SS YES!

Have you had any of your rogues do 3k dps like I did on brutallus? >=D Ret Pally, Surv Hunter, fury warrior, enc shaman, bear tank.. and I forgot what else = I'm so powerful

Tronga, let me be in your guild as a DK, I have no home!

 

[TrongaMonga]

No, we haven't. We haven't been lucky with Warglaive drops, no set done yet. But three OH >>

 

[Kuro Neko]

Seems like reverse with my old guild, just spam MH's, we even had one drop with no one in the raid that could use it, so we gave it to a pally, lol.

So let me join mmk?