Discussion in 'Game Talk' started by Vadriel, Aug 6, 2008.
I see these character battles more like fanboy battles . It is interesting though.
Oh, I'm both an Alien and Zerg fanboy. I'm just trying to educate you guys on why Aliens are far more capable than these guys are saying.
Have you even played any alien games? I've played about all of them. They aren't fast enough to dodge spines unless they can hide in their environment.
Hmm...crazy thing about games, they're balanced to make it so that playing as aliens isn't brutally unfair to other players.
I don't care for shooters, and IMO AvP should never have been made into an FPS. So I haven't played those. I do own AvP Extinction though, which is a sadly incomplete game that could have been so much more but kinda fails. Ravagers ftw though.
Truth is, as with anything really, you can't know the full story and have a full grasp of anything's capabilities until you've read the literature on it...it's why there's so much heat in the DT vs Jedi thread. I've read all but one of the SC books, and all but the two most recently published Alien, Predator, and Alien Vs Predator books. I know pretty much the full story on both, and I'm pretty sure Aliens reign as the superior organism. The only thing the Zerg have on them is sentient control...but as we've seen before, Aliens are pretty damn clever and sneaky...sentience doesn't guarantee success against them, and if they kill the Overlords and such the Zerg will fall to an inferior intellectual level. A Hydralisk is dumb as a stump, but an Alien Drone is fast, smart, and deadly. It'd be like hunting a big, spined rhino...tricky, but not too challenging if you're a ****ing Alien Xenomorph.
1st Movie was because of fear.
2nd Movie was because of the environment. Once they all gathered in that room, they killed a lot of Aliens with what, a few marines? Ripley too?
3 was in a no weapons prison if I remember. There weren't any Smart Guns, or Pulse Rifles.
By the way, predators plasma cannon really wasn't that fast...even then, the aliens used the environment (their biggest asset basically) to their advantage.
Aliens are pretty fleshy. That'd completely rip through a drone or a predalien.
I played the games, where they are much more lethal. AvP1/2 for PC, and the Alien games for Atari Jaguar (old school) and I honestly think its a good tossup, but not particularly in the Aliens favor like some people would think. Based on the games I've played, while playing SC and reading up on the novels since I first got SC original way back, I would say it depends on the setting and who sees who first.
Aliens weak, not in the slightest. But saying they rape Zerg is a pretty big statement unless you look at it from all possible sides.
Edit: Also, Hydralisks tend to be pretty smart. A lot of evidence shows them especially fond of ambushing and surprise attacks, based on the FMV from SC and what I've read. To say they are dumb is...well, pretty dumb.
Hydralisks are smart when led by Overlords...left wild they turn on each other and pepper everything with their spines. Remember what happened when Zasz was killed in the game? His entire brood went nutso and tore itself apart. Aliens would never do that...I've only seen 4 occasions where Aliens kill each other:
1) Alien Resurrection: 2 stronger Warriors gang up on their weaker comrade to use its acid blood to melt a hole in the floor of their containment cell.
2) Alien Resurrection: Mutant alien rejects the Queen as its mother and knocks her flippin face off.
3) Alien novel (Rogue): A scientist-created Warrior-strain specially bred to be the size of a Queen goes nuts on a hive in a battle for superiority. He was a complete outcast from the natural order, in essence wasn't "one of them" so they attacked him.
4) Alien novel (possibly an AvP one, don't remember which it was): Some group of idiot military scientists decide they want to control Alien warriors so they implant them with cybernetic control devices and basically program them to follow orders. I'm not entirely sure if they even encountered other Aliens, but I know they were used as a weapon and would attack their brethren if so ordered.
What I'm trying to get at is that all breeds are individually intelligent, though loyal to the Queen (who's often conjectured to be fully sentient). Most Zerg breeds are about as smart as feral dogs, mostly driven by instinct. Zerg without direction don't set traps or ambushes, at least not organized ones. A Hydralisk may burrow and wait for prey, but crocodiles do the same thing lurking in streams. It's just predatory instincts. Aliens actually show problem-solving ability and conscious evaluation/choice.
While the zerg are a control based species, they too have eradicated entire planets under that control. The Overmind being on Char, that's a long way to control some feral dogs.
Still doesn't mean that aliens will hands down destroy zerg in a fight. If we want to go by that, I could easily say that a swarm of guardians could bomb every planet and solo every alien due to no air species. Or defilers using plague on everything, where the acid blood would eventually undue every alien since it also burns through their skin based on a few movies and games. Really makes no difference now does it?
One thing is, Aliens likely are more intelligent on their own, but even then, could they stop the Swarm even if it wasn't rampaging wit overlords? Swarm outnumbers aliens GREATLY. They would lose because Zerg is a more evolved speciles, what with space travel and air species, as well as the ability to incorporate other species into the mutated fold, the Overmind could just capture the queen and put it into the Zerg. Then there would be no contest.
Yeah, this is why I intitially made the challenge as hive vs hive or representative breed vs representative breed. The Zerg exist on a much larger scope than the Aliens, so as far as overall prosperity of the species goes, it's not much of a contest.
Although, it's pretty much impossible to exterminate the Aliens entirely, because they're sprinkled across vast regions of space where nobody's ever discovered them. Their origin is STILL a mystery, they just pop up more often now because we're starting to spread into their area of influence. They mostly move and spread by stowing away with other, more mobile species...much like lice and other bugs.
And just as the Zerg could infest Aliens, imagine what would come of a facehugger nailing a Zergling or a Hydralisk. Hence what I said about potential hybrids scaring the **** out of me.
Oh, and the Overmind wasn't directly controlling each and every Zergling across light-years. That's where the hierarchy comes in. Overmind > Cerebrates > Overlords > Minions. In spite of appearing in-game as buildings, the Overmind and Cerebrates are mobile organisms, just massive and generally staying in place unless forced to move. Cerebrates go where their main hive cluster is, and Overlords accompany the various underling strains. Kill off the Overlords and the Cerebrate will have a harder time controlling the minions. Kill off the Cerebrate and the Overmind has no command at all unless possibly they're in close proximity (relatively). Hence the Zasz fiasco.
So here's how I see it in terms of matchups:
Hive vs Hive, both fully developed. Slugfest, I'm curious to see it play out. My heart goes to the Aliens, but the Zerg would be a hard enemy.
Zergling vs any Alien breed: dead Zergling. A larger strain of Alien could mow down dozens.
Hydralisk vs agile Alien breed: fun fight, but dead Hydra most likely. Aliens just have superior speed and intelligence.
Ultralisks would probably require a few Aliens to take them down, but the minimum would be maybe 3. Once they got ON the brute, it'd be game over. A Queen would demolish an Ultralisk due to being so much faster and more agile. I mean, as big as they are, Queens are mostly spidery and quick as opposed to brutish and powerful. It'd run circles around an Ultralisk, in spite of how they lumber around in Extinction.
Airborn species of Zerg would fare better against Aliens, but the Xenomorphs are crafty. Eventually they'd probably figure out a way to get at them.
Probably the most effective ground opposition to a swarm of Xenomorphs would be a line of Hydralisks, but only in environment favoring the Hydras...probably an open, flat prairie. Any walls or trees or buildings and it starts favoring Aliens. Hydras would win British Militia-style, in lines mowing down waves of Aliens. All the Hydras in the Swarm couldn't beat encountering an equal number of Aliens in a system of caves or tunnels.
Unit to unit, Aliens are probably superior. I have to say though, an encounter between Zerg and Xenomorphs would be an amazing watch.
I still think Zerg will win overall...having played most of the games, Aliens aren't that special when comparing them to zerg units. I don't agree with most of your comparisons, especially ultralisks. They are actually very fast. I know you played SC but let me remind you that they are as fast as Zerglings when they are upgraded. They could easily decapitate the queen in a head on collison, and they are agile and armoed enough to withstand a lot of hits from anything (they have what, 9 armor? Come on, thats more them a Battlecrusier). They aren't that slow with their kaiser blades either.
by numbers alone, zerg easily wins.
but if you pit one units against one i dont think one is more superior all the time. lorewise anything can happen, an alien can single handedly kill an ultralisk miraculously and a surprising exceptional zergling might get lucky and can caught the alien queen off guard and kill it at its weakest spot.
You're relying too much on game-balance statistics. Anything that big will be able to close distance quickly, but it won't be able to turn well, and it certainly won't be agile. An Ultralisk is like a huge bull elephant, something its size that was built for speed and agility would hopelessly outmaneuver it.
And yeah they're armored, but what chance does chitin have against teeth and claws that are harder than diamonds and can turn neosteel into soggy toilet paper? Plus, if an ultralisk is actually unfortunate enough to wound an Alien, that acid will turn it into mush considering how close they'd have to be to hurt the Alien. The blades of an Ultralisk are just bone, they slice through an Alien and they'll get blood on them...and if a few drops of Alien blood can melt through 3 starship decks, the Ultralisk will quickly be deprived of its greatest weapons and have to resort to trampling...which'll have similar bad effects on its feet.
Every single part of an Alien's body is a weapon. They leap unbelievably well, they're extremely fast, they can climb on any surface, their blood is a highly pressurized acid, you can't blind them by attacking their eyes (since they don't HAVE any), they blend in perfectly with their hive secretion, and probably their deadliest weapon is their incredibly long and sharp tails. A single Warrior moving well could take down an Ultralisk.
A lone Warrior may not have that sort of strategy to attack the weak points, but a Queen certainly would. A Queen could easily dodge the Ultralisk's first charge, get on its back where it can't reach her, and send those inner jaws deep into its skull. The battle'd be over in seconds. If the Ultralisk doesn't get lucky quickly and take her out fast, he's toast.
The real key to an Alien's danger isn't just the physical capability, it's how clever they are. They learn incredibly quickly. In hive vs hive it wouldn't take more than a few Aliens lost before they started to learn the weaknesses and get creative...and the dead Aliens are just as dangerous with their acid blood, especially vs a race that uses a lot of melee as well.
That's the main reason why Hydralisks and air support are the Zerg's best weapon vs the Aliens, because they can kill from range and avoid the acid blood.
Aliens are outnumbered, and squishy. Even the Queen. I'm relying on game mechanics yes, because that's mostly what we can offer for SC. Novels, sure, but I played and watched everything Aliens, and Predator. I know what I'm talking about here, they aren't as smart as you say they are..quick learners yes, but they aren't super smart. It would be even less in their favor if I went based on the movies.
If I compared the Queen in Aliens to an Ultralisk, she'd lose. Hands down. Shes way too slow to avoid a kaiser blade swing from an Ultralisk. To top it off, she couldn't even get through the suit Ripley used. Shows how diamond hard she is eh?
The one from AvP, yeah that's a different story. That would be a good fight and it would be hard to determine the victor.
A marine in the aliens universe would rape tons of aliens and marines of the alien world, and an ultralisk can chew through what, 15 marines before they pierce its armor enough to kill it? A xenomorph warrior couldn't kill an ultralisk. They can barely kill humans without being torn to shreds because again, they are very fragile for an alien species. Meanwhile Zerg are more advanced and fight technology much more advanced. It's a bad comparison for that reason alone. Aliens just can't compare because they aren't as evolved as the Zerg.
Zerg > Xenomorphs.
I don't know where you're getting this idea that the Aliens are frail? They're silicone-based rather than carbon-like us. They're far more resistant to weather and blunt attacks. Their exoskeleton is no weaker than Zerg plating. Hydralisks get holes torn in them from Gauss spikes just as much as Aliens get them from Predator plasma, Predator metal (designed to hunt Aliens), or high-grade military rounds. They're NOT squishy. A FACEHUGGER required a surgical laser (after breaking a scalpel) to even scratch its leg...and it punished the humans by burning a hole through 3 decks in their starship with the few drops of blood that came from the wound.
The Queen in Aliens was a big animatronic puppet. Its physical capabilities were limited by the technology of the filmmakers. Up until Alien Resurrection, all the aliens were men in suits. Watch the difference in agility between an alien Warrior in AVP (CG one, not the one in the single Pred vs Alien fight, that was animatronic) and the first drone in Alien. They move almost like snakes, not like men in suits. Judging their abilities by what you see in the movies is just silly. Appreciate the concept rather than the limited portrayal.
And the only reason the Queen in Aliens was unable to kill the **** out of Ripley was that she focused more on trying to eat Ripley's face rather than actually fighting. If she'd attacked the machine rather than the pilot, or actually used her tail...it wouldn't have been a fight. It also wouldn't have been a very good movie ending, which is why Ripley won when in reality a slow and clunky cargo loader would have been like a clam shell to an otter.
AvP Queen vs Aliens Ripley: Dead Ripley, and end of the movie series.
And the comment about being too slow to avoid an Ultralisk strike is just blatantly incorrect. Actually written properly, the quote would be "An Ultralisk is far too slow to avoid a stabbing tail strike to the head from an Alien Queen." Because THAT'S actually true. I already explained why the Queen in Aliens was so inferior...it was due to plot requirements and technology deficiencies.
Even if we say that Zerg are tougher, it's undeniable that Aliens are faster and more agile...plus they're freaking masters at being exactly where you don't want them to be, and lords of the sneak attack. Most of the time you never even see one...just get that creepy "hair on the back of your neck" feeling seconds before the inner set of jaws come exploding into the back of your head.
If you come to close quarters with an Alien, you usually lose. Preds can do it sometimes because they're ****ing beasts. Humans, it's a death sentence no matter what you're packing. Terran Marines would get just as owned as Weyland-Utani soldiers. Probably moreso, because they've never had to deal with Zerg that attack from the ceiling or walls. For the most part, save burrowing, Zerg have to fight along the same ground rules as humans. Aliens don't. Even a Queen is spidery and compact enough to be able to go almost anywhere a human can.
I don't know if any of the zerg's biological units (i.e. Hydralisk) will even affect aliens. I kind of expect them to be immune to that.
Well, a highspeed, supersharp spine will hurt an Alien like anything else, and most melee attacks will do damage (even if they will result in deadly acid sprays that'll probably kill the attacker). The biowarfare stuff wouldn't work well, I'd assume. Most of its designed to be used against carbon-based lifeforms, and Aliens aren't...most of their organ systems aren't even parallel to ours. They don't really eat, for example. They process prey meat into that nasty rock-hard webbing goo stuff they use in their hives, taking whatever sustenance they need in the process. Their digestive system is pretty odd.
Not to mention the nervous system and circulatory systems are way different too. Zerg toxins probably wouldn't know what to do in an Alien body. Infestation may prove difficult too.
the alien resembles the tyranids more than the zerg. tyranids would actually pwnd the zerg and alien race combined.
Smart Guns can reduce most aliens to waste. In the games, you could go through alien after alien just by using the smart gun. A Gauss rifle is 10x more advanced then a smart gun or anything else in the aliens universe, weapon wise. A marines is way more advanced then any of the marines you would see in Aliens. Period. I really don't know where you draw your comparisons from...you should really play the games and understand how the xenomorphs work in real time rather then...well, whatever you are going by. It would clear up a lot I think. That's were I'm getting mine (seeing as all we have for Zerg are some novels and one game) so anything from the movies doesn't really fit the comparison in my opinion.
An Alien Queen stabbing an Ultralisk. In the head.
Let's think about that for a second. Here, we have the Ultralisk; a gigantic, mammoth-type Zerg (But obscenely taller than a mammoth) with huge tusks to mow down the opposition, put up against an Alien Queen; a much shorter, and probably slower (The Queen isn't made well, it's got a huge head and takes a while to pick up speed) beast with a huge head. How the **** is the Queen supposed to get it's tail anywhere near an Ultralisks head??? Seriously, the Queen is a piece of lego compared to an Ultra. And the Ultralisk is faster because the Queen can't make quick movements like other Xeno's can. Whether or not the acid from the Queen would hurt the Ultra (or kill it) is irrelevant. An Ultralisk would stomp the **** out of an Alien Queen.
YouTube - AvP2: Alien Queen molt
Edit: while we're on the topic, an Ultralisk is several times bigger and stronger then a queen. About 10 feet taller and much more massive, with 4 blades to boot.
10 feet? Try 6 billion feet. Ultralisks are enormous.
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