Discussion in 'Warcraft III' started by Chaos Marine, May 12, 2006.
Any one of the 5 can counter that unit noob.
Priest and sorcs wont be doing much damage to chims. Knights and mortars cant attack air. Gryphons will get owned as soon as the chims and bears kill the the knights.
Archers/dryads/dotts/hipps can defend against gryphs...Are you sure you got your argument straight?
wtf are you talking about?
I'm talking about how easily 5 units(my strat) will get countered by 3 NE units.
5 human units are needed to counter 2 NE units
3 NE units counter 5 human units
Yet somehow NE aren't imba.
That could just be an NE vs. Human thing.
Have you ever thought about getting, oh, I don't know, DRAGONHAWK RIDERS???? Aerial Shackles > Chims. Then use Thunder Clap (assuming you have an mk, which most people do), to knock the shit out of the bears. Hell you could even Banish them all.
Did you ever think of the fact as soon as they see dragonhawks they'll tp out and get hippos. Nah, that'd just be crazy.
Dotts come out with FF, at that point in time the best upgrades you could have is 1/1, very unlikely you'll have that though. Even at 1/1 all but heros are put into the negative armor range with FF. The paper mache demos wont really do much good vs hunt, dotts, dryads, the DH, and the BM with its summons(as most NE pick BM as 2nd hero vs ORC) unless they dont pressure you and you get a lot of them. If you try to fast tech to t3 you'd probably lose so you'll be stuck in t2 for quite some time while the NE are free to rape your army and tech to t3. Upgrading really isn't an option either because they aren't cheap and you'll need those resources to make more units, which will likely die. So your best chance is to hope they dont pressure you early on and allow you to tech to t3 where you might stand a chance of beating them or just pray they cant micro worth a damn.
Dragonhawks can cast Aerial Shackles on the hippos too.
Aerial shackles leaves them as easy targets for dryads or archers. And with that many units it unlikely the human player will be able to effectivly micro the whole army.
So now we're up to 6 units to counter 4.
NE can also use the same strat against all the races. What other race can do that?
Alright, so you do try to stop and attack the bastard. I was thinking if you sat there and did nothing then you would be the fool.
Then you would need enough hawks = to the amoutn of air there is in the sky. You are better off gunning down hippos with your piercing. Being aware that the bears and other forms of ground forces don't overwhelm you in the process.
Thunder Clap wont knock the shit out of them, it will just slow thier attack speeds and movement speeds for a short while. If you see a really weak bear before he goes to heal, you can storm bolt it. You are right in the sense that you can banish bears. Most t3 melee succumb to the worst of effects like stuns and disables like Banish.
I do admit NE is difficult to beat, but I wouldn't call it imbalanced. I will leave the argument now for a while. Lizard and Cmarine, stop insulting each other. Although Lizard hasn't done much, but you guys need to calm down and discuss this in an orderly manner. Or I will have no choice but to shut down this thread and put you both under warnings, which I don't really like doing to people.
Another match-up that I think is imbalanced is UD vs ORC.
Hex, ensnare, and the BM make for one hell of a nuke. Kodos (I think they should be made t3) could just devour units. Shockwave owns ghouls and fiends. UD have to make it to t3 to finally compete against the ORC.
Maybe if the destro had its health and damage lowered and made t2 it would balance the match-up. But that could make it so that HU have a hard time beating UD.
Dude you should really play me as an NE player and I will be whatever race you want me to be. I will show you there isn't a single imbalance in the game. IM NOT KIDDING. MY ACCOUNT IS JIGALOE69@US WEST.
Your arguments are based on ur opponent having no skill whatsoever and you having an unlimited amount of resources and having a perfect skill level. In short....they suck.
NE are overrated it seems. I don't even like to play them anymore because of it. =/
What the hell? Its the other way around! If fiends focus fire on the grunts, the grunts don't have a chance of hell in surviving.
Your arguement are based off of the NE having no skill. FF cost what 35 mana? Disenchant I think cost about 100 mana. Not a very cost effective way of dealing with a few units with FF on them. If they bring a few wisps no dispels for orc. You also seem to forget that the DH can use a thing called mana burn.
You're taking my scenario apart and making it so it happens out of order or some things just dont happen at all. Kind of hard to do what you mention if you started out being rushed by hunts and a DH.
Dryads are magic immune and their attack slows and poisons and they can dispel all for just a few more gold coins than a footmen. They may be expensive but the definitly get the most bang for the buck. NE get the best ranged unit as well as the best t3 melee unit. NE just dont need the micro the other races do.
Staying in their base and massing for a rush would be incredible stupid for an ORC to do vs NE.
Most games of UDvOrc I've watched and played have given the victory to Orc. You can't go ghouls because of chainwave. Fiends you go of course, but then there's that ensnare. A fiend that can't move is a dead fiend; UD needs speed to live.
The other problem is that UD doesn't have many options versus Orc. Well, they have casters, but I don't see casters used many times. One caster summons, but you need dead bodies, so you'd need wagons, since grunts are tough to kill. There's banshees, but then they don't do much damage. Gargs? Watch your 10 garg army die to 3 bat riders. Great game design Blizzard.
Orcs however, don't even need to go to tier 3. The only unit that's waiting for them at tier 3 is Tauren and I don't see people using that ever. I mean they drop a beastiary and there's 4 units waiting to be built. Contrast that with dropping a slaughterhouse at tier 2, only to have 2 support units, the stat and wagon, which means you have to keep relying on fiends.
UD tier 2 is the most limited out of all the races. It's like an afterthought:
Blizz developer 1: Oh shoot, I forgot to do UD tier 2, Jim.
Blizz dev2: Don't worry about it Frank, just give them a good unit at tier 3 and let's go home.
I'd say UD requires the most micro, but that's arguable.
I'm not going to argue about Orc versus NE because I just hate Orc (I was once a UD player), so I never play as them.
Instead I can tell you about what i do when I face NE as human. It'll be short:
Rifles > Dryads
Gryphons > Bears
Most likely, they'll try making more dryads to counter the gryphs, but if they ever go air, go hawks. But hawks are only good at air to air battles or if you need cloud against towers. They do weak damage compared to rifles.
Maybe this might happen:
Your army sees his army, he send bears first. You send gryphons to scare. You get a couple shots and dryads move in. Send rifles to finish them off. Bears move back in to hit rifles. Gryphons focus fire on bears again.
At the worst, you could simply avoid a large battle and simply stay at base and harass his base and expos with gryphons. Use cloud on towers.
And of course there will be "THE" battle. However, his bears are melee, so they should be easy to FF with gryphons.
Gryphons target bears. Rifles target dryads.
If you want statistics I'll get some:
Gryphons do 50 damage per 2.2 seconds. They will then do 100 damage per 2.2 seconds as they do 200% to bear armor. Bear health and armor values give them 1133 health in total. So if you do the math, 1 volley from 12 gryphs will kill a bear, 2 volleys from 6 gryphs (2.2 seconds) or 3 volleys from 4 gryphs (4.4 seconds).
I'd say this is useful, since bears are coming for you, you don't need to come to them. That makes them easy to target. Just practice some air control and avoid dryads. Just snipe some bears that are only guarded by like 2 dryads.
[glow=black] defenitely, orc owns ud, grunts are sufficient for fiends, honestly, wind riders for ghouls and batriders for destroyers...[/glow]
Wind Riders can also be used to destroy dests in the right hands.
is that the Alchemist hero HellWolf? yea like NE is not all that bufffed, like if you keep on eye out for your enemy (1v1 2v2) with a peon scout or some shit (sentry ward is best ) then you can now what to counter them.
They can destroy the peon or eat the tree. Also, the owl scout by the POTM can see the ward.
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