ud diserves mass towers vs hu

Discussion in 'Warcraft Strategy Guides' started by None293823, Dec 13, 2006.

  1. ChrisH36

    ChrisH36 Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.

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    Obviously, because you go to a point where you get zero cash. Also, the UD just buys fiends and keeps them alive to save up for other things. By tier 2, the guy would have like 700 gold, even with some fiends coming out. Ghouls alone are easy to replace, and they are sure as hell lethal with Frenzy and upgrades.

    Want an example, some of the replays me and Pan posted prove it lol.
     
  2. None293823

    None293823 Premium Member

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    exactly. Ud always has a lot of gold, sometimes is almost as if with an expo, human loses a lot more and cannot restore the army to counter. Ive obs-ed many pro&league games an if the ud is much less skilled to lose dk, to lose more ok, but generally hu always loses more and ud always has gold. And a pro human would go expo and mass towers, you can see the same done by Insomnia, tod and sky - the best humans in the world. So i dont give a f... about some lamers who cant beat 7 towers. 7-8 dests with enough mana for annihilation cut towers like slices of bread. So what i say is a widely spread problem and towers is the only solution. If you fail to expo and he owns you hard, it's gg. What Ive seen in these pro games, humans wold lose fast on TM or oher maps like without being able to expo. ANd when a good map like terenas or lt, thats what we choose in bo3 for cerain wins.
     
  3. ChrisH36

    ChrisH36 Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.

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    Even with a fast expo, things become problematic. Most likely, the ud would try to attack it while it is being setup. You would definitly need to setup your towers early.

    Hell, only twice I was luckly enough to get an expo up in the middle parts of Turtle Rock. Especially in 2on2 that is difficult.
     
  4. Lizardbreath

    Lizardbreath Former Staff member

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    With humans the trick is to catch them mid game. Their t3 isn't all that great and neither is their t1 but tier 2 is a good time to do an assault.
     
  5. ChrisH36

    ChrisH36 Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.

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    Especially before the period they get statues or arm thier fiends with web.
     
  6. Lizardbreath

    Lizardbreath Former Staff member

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    Exactly.

    I really don't see the problem with the expansion either, on most maps the expansion is like a 10 sec peon walk and u can walk 5 of them and build it quickly.
     
  7. ChrisH36

    ChrisH36 Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.

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    Yeah, but you still need to take into consideration what creeps are at the expo and how many units you have. In a map like Lost Temple, Phantom Grove, or Teranas Stand, those maps are super easy to expo. But something like Gnoll Wood may take more units to crack.
     
  8. None293823

    None293823 Premium Member

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    I know what you mean. You start making rifles and priests and maybe stay even tier 2 and push the ud, i see those low skilled doing this but i havent in high levels. If there is one person to do this, it is 1 to every 20 people if real human player. I have played vs very good players and i know how good micro can own your rifles and the ud needs only a 3rd hero cl with aboms seeing that you have rifles and doesnt make dests, and gg rifles. Let's not talk about expo and rifles because with expo you can win with mass rifles too if he doesnt have expo and he is lower food limit.

    I have convinced myself how much rifles suck vs ud, the way vs ud is expo and towers then you can do what you want. Here's one of my best games vs ud and without expo and tier 3, destroying ud with expo. He wasnt newb, he wasnt so good either but this is ud and i was with no expo vs expo. When i made this thread i used to lose every single game vs ud, now with the right way to play vs ud, it's more like 50:50.

    And if you follow most of the top reps are with expo so beating ud without and stopping his is rly a nice game. Micro was so so good, I was wrong to ask and give reps when i can see the mistakes myself. Well in this game i dont have anything to blame myself on, and that measn the micro so, it was rly one of my best.
     
  9. Lizardbreath

    Lizardbreath Former Staff member

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    Rifles/motors/priests is my usual for UD people....I'd watch your replay but I don't have Warcraft 3 installed anymore :(
     
  10. None293823

    None293823 Premium Member

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    Aahhaha another, this time maybe better player, i had expo ony for a little time and still ownage!!!!! High apms ftw! Apm is just the vinegar in the salad k?

    After making this thread i made many wins vs ud, these 2 games being no expo game and this exactly vs better player than the 1st, wooho, I didnt say it when i lost every game now:

    Impactor RULZ!!!!!

    xD
     
  11. ChrisH36

    ChrisH36 Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.

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    Good to see that you are getting right back on that horse and continuing the fight.
     
  12. None293823

    None293823 Premium Member

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    How do you know without watching the games ? -.- I know that no one here bothers wathing replays no matter even if they were only 40+ level, im not going to post any random replays like i did a long time ago, just the best well i save these 2 for myself as my best vs ud.
     
  13. ChrisH36

    ChrisH36 Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.

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    Well dude, I just got home and I assumed that found a loophole. Also, it now costs points to download a file. Besides, I dled it now and I am gonna watch it.
     
  14. None293823

    None293823 Premium Member

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    Yes i dont intend to post much anyway, from time to time, only the best and only because im not sure it is good enough to be seen by bigger audiences.
     
  15. ChrisH36

    ChrisH36 Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.

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    Well, you have somewhat of an audience here. And sometimes it's better to have at least 1 person watch it.
     
  16. None293823

    None293823 Premium Member

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    Yes because they are still not good enough for replayers, i mean, i'm known from the league i've played (and ppl who i am to ask for a clan still cant decide) and in order to be invited in some of our good clans and i dont say pro clans, i need a better rating.

    I see high apm, I see some things done well and if you watch these 2 undeads, there is something that still sucks in them now maybe they arent good righ?, I.ve just played a game vs really good ud who owned me hard. APM doesnt matter you say, but you dont understand that this high apm (248) comes from very fast actions. When im pissed and i start pretty serious and i start doing everything like a machine, i do it pretty fast, my fingers are literally jumping, that includes multiple tasks, surround, micro i do everything very fast and then i get above 190 and i totally dominate in faster actions if someone is e.g slowlier he doesnt even know what's happening ;> . And you cant tell me that the speed with which they control their units doesnt matter. You havent seen top players' fingers but now i am starting to realize what they really do with their fingers to make you see what you see and. And i can add fast thinking too.

    If you saw these 2 games, im not sure you might consider them good if you havent seen good players, but sry i didnt save that rep that i lost to make the difference that these 2 arent skilled. As you can see i didnt base them on levels or apm, but how do i know who i have owned? I doubt a lvl 40 ud plays so weak, ive played vs lvl 40+ undeads and also when you know what level you're facing you can make a conclusion how a lvl X plays. Or if they are low levels the apm.... accept that usually the pro players have so high apm and that this can also recongnize it if you also see a crazy playing by someone.
     
  17. None293823

    None293823 Premium Member

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    Chris if you remember the 2 uds i uploaded and some prev games well take a look at this and make the difference: it's on TS, he didnt allow me to expo, he slowered my workshops for fm-s, thats what i call a very good ud (real race) stats 8:0 prolike.
     
  18. ChrisH36

    ChrisH36 Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.

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    Yeah I just watched that one. Actually got around to watching all 3.

    He was playing you like a puppet almost the entire game. Considering the death of his scout was almost a giveaway to what you were doing. And the fact he already knows in Teranas Stand what you do. By the way, is there a difference in unit power to go for hte expo with the Renegade Wizard? Also, you stalled on the Flying Machines when you had the time to get about 6-7 of them. You shouldn't always wait to the last minute to get them when air is around. If you need to, hide them in the back of the base and give your enemy a surprise. Cause if you didn't, you could have probably averted the Destroyer diaster that cost you the game. You could have then upgraded the Gunpowder and learned Bombs then drop some on the Ghouls.

    I noticed that stall when you faced FoV)Fov. But then again, he didn't have very good DK control. Considering he killed himself at the creep when you obviously had the creeps in the bank.

    But I dunno what makes the enemies do what they do? They go ghouls, get frenzy, make dest even though you have quite a number Flying Machines. And expect to hold you off with CoilNova nuke. And then you leave them to a point where the only thing they can use to keep dests up in the air to kill knights is Fiends.

    But you are the lucky one, fighting dest with orc is a severe problem. For you cannot use Bloodlust, you need to be careful with SW, and there is no real good AA that can gun down Dest. I did it once with Wyverns, but I needed to have healing wards and Wave constantly, especially the webbed ones. And there have been games where I needed to use raiders and just hoped my heroes and Grunts could kill them for me before they returned to the sky 12 seconds later. Then again, Batriders when massed like Flying Machines are pracitically pwnage right there.
     
  19. None293823

    None293823 Premium Member

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    There is one rule - I try to get fms as fast as possible but as you can see a good ud player can have more or the same N of dests for the same time i do fms because tier 3 , 1stly baclsmith then two workshops, lumber is slowering me and thast why i use a shredder on some maps - believe me that robot is 10 times better than 8-9 workers for wood with upgrade. When i have expo and mass fms, dests have no chance but in such cases where he makes them so fast i should go tanks. 2 tanks would have been better than what i had done. But he would have owned my knights and foots , the way he had it stats and ghousl with frenzy -im telling you i cant own that with the 1st 1-2 knights foots left and 3 heroes - you see i cant own his units with his only 2 heroes... Also didnt you see that he chaced my gyors inside my base ofc i dont fight them if not the needed number and let him kill me, the same is when dests are under a workshop and the 1st that goes out starts shooting and he kills every newly made fm.

    By the way, is there a difference in unit power to go for hte expo with the Renegade Wizard?
    - ?

    orc vs Ud is gg ud. Why sometimes? All you need is riders and gg ud. You dont need shamas i dont remember seeing sw too, demos and riders. The ud always loses vs orc. My part for instance finds games vs ud very easy.
     
  20. ChrisH36

    ChrisH36 Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.

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    What I mean is that. Could you do a fast expo on the one closest to your base. Provided, you brought a few more Militia and maybe 2 foots. Then again, the scout would have caught you doing so. And that would have also altered your APM, considering the time it takes to get the extra men to come and also the fast expo strat could still backfire.

    I know Orc owns UD with Raiders, it ****s thier micro up and prevents burrow. But dests can be a different ball game if you aren't ready for it. I know how to slay them, I just hate thier 900 HP and thier 4 armor. Takes a while to crack them. A few times, as I said, I had to resort to raiders and just using melee in hopes they dead in 12 seconds.

    Spirit Walkers are only good vs Ud if you fight a player that uses Necromancers or crypt lord beetles become a problem.