The Warp Ray

[ChrisH36]

The carrier is gone too, I believe, replaced by the tempest.

The only difference between the Tempest and the carrier that I've seen is that the Tempest has a shield against air (or ground, can't recall) units.

It's interceptors are now disks and the shield can only protect against ground units. Air units will deal direct damage to the ship. At least the WR doesnt have the effect of the Avenger in C/C Generals. It had a laser that could destroy any missiles that approached it, and it had another laser setup to fry air units. And there was a designator that would reveal cloaked units and any unit who attacks the designated target gets an attack speed increase.

 

[Phoenix2003]

Here's to hoping tempests are faster.(Carrs were already fast for cap ships, but they now have this weakness to make up for) They're gonna need a plenty of support from phoenixes now. I'd would only make sairs if terran went wriaiths, but it looks like phoenixes will be friggin mandatory now.

 

[Guest]

Imo, "Carriers" are weakened because the spells that gg'ed them (swarm, plague, maybe even lockdown) are gonna be taken out/replaced.

 

[Phoenix2003]

Yeah, maybe.
They probably were a bit too powerful.(Long range, ability to attack while moving, and being very quick for capital ships) The number of T users praying they'd be weakened has been answered.

 

[Ntrik_]

Maybe tempest have faster movement speed, but lower hp and shield stuff.

Man... toss air units look pretty shitty now,

Oh well I'll stick to ground units like I always did <3 zealots

 

[ChrisH36]

Here's to hoping tempests are faster.(Carrs were already fast for cap ships, but they now have this weakness to make up for) They're gonna need a plenty of support from phoenixes now. I'd would only make sairs if terran went wriaiths, but it looks like phoenixes will be friggin mandatory now.

But the Zerg will probably still have Scourge on thier side to destroy Pheonixes and probably direct attacks to Tempests.

And there is still no telling if the TErran have a Valk-equivalent flyer.

 

[Phoenix2003]

Ok, heres how it works in BW.
As far as scourge goes they weren't really a threat to carrs since tosses would almost always have ample amount of sairs before making carrs.(in fact, zergs made devs to counter sairs and in turn carrs are brought in.)
The strat starts off with sair/reaver into carrs eliminating any scourge counter and dweb > dark swarm.(or the air units were fast enough to dodge swarm and rape another base if so inclined).

Carrs were mainly used against T anyways. (in which case, I usually didn't even need support aside from obs unless he made a huge amount of wraiths) But since Tempests are weaker against air, air(or anti-air) would certainly be needed as support.

If Phoenixes are any better than Sairs, then I can't see how scourge would help here, either. Then again, I'm just speculating at this point since the game isn't out, yet.

Carrs were considered to be too good a unit(even on its own)especially vs T. That's why I think they're being weakened.

Not sure why you mention valks, though. I hope you're not saying valks > carrs since thats laughable. Wraiths,yes, valks, no.

 

[Vadriel]

Are you nuts? Valks in numbers are > than all air. They're the best BW AA unit of the set. Not only do they hit the Carriers, but they hit all the Interceptors too, robbing the Carriers of their weapons. Alone, Valkyries get pwned, but if you've got 5+ of them, it's going to take some strategy to win an air war with them.

 

[ChrisH36]

Not sure why you mention valks, though. I hope you're not saying valks > carrs since thats laughable. Wraiths,yes, valks, no.

It is possible, depends on the numbers, upgrades of valks and carrs and how packed the Carrs are. But you would also need enough Wraiths to bomb the Carrs one by one out of the sky.

You could probably combine the two and make it a little more effective since now you have somewhat of a good measure vs. backup Scouts. And besides, you can also fry shields via EMP to make it a tad bit easier.

Alone, Valkyries get pwned, but if you've got 5+ of them, it's going to take some strategy to win an air war with them.

An interceptor has 40/40, it will take a while before it can be destroyed. And Valks cannot target moving flyers very easily. Plus it will take more than 5 to bring down something like Capital ships, unless we are talking about Zerg.... but then Devourers have thier way with them. Slow attack speed + armor loss = GG from other units..

 

[Phoenix2003]

Are you nuts? Valks in numbers are > than all air. They're the best BW AA unit of the set. Not only do they hit the Carriers, but they hit all the Interceptors too, robbing the Carriers of their weapons. Alone, Valkyries get pwned, but if you've got 5+ of them, it's going to take some strategy to win an air war with them.

The fact that you think valks own all air makes you nuts.
I'm not getting into a theorycraft debate with you.(or Chris for that matter)

 

[ChrisH36]

And I said it was possible with backup. Why do you think I said combine the two?

 

[Vadriel]

Ok, look at that one Terran BW mission. 8 valks vs like 20 mutas. Instapwnage.

Seriously, if you know how to use them, and have enough so that the spray covers a good area, they're like the freaking skyclearers.

 

[ChrisH36]

First of all: That was 7. Second: They didnt have micro. And all you lost was 1.

Besides, muta have only 120 HP and are chewed up ion seconds by almost any forem of attack, especially from Valks, even with the half damage. A real player would probably spread out thier air to avoid thier concentration of fire. If you cram your units together like the noobs who play BGH or Money maps, then you are boned.

 

[Phoenix2003]

Ok, look at that one Terran BW mission. 8 valks vs like 20 mutas. Instapwnage.

Seriously, if you know how to use them, and have enough so that the spray covers a good area, they're like the freaking skyclearers.

Valks are designed to beat mutas, scouts,and wraiths, but that's it. Doesn't prove valks > carrs. They have a very tough time penetrating the carrs' armor. I've actually tried this in that very mission out of desperation and lost all but one of my valks trying to kill one carrier.

To Chris: my bad.

 

[ChrisH36]

The problem with the CArrier is that, the armor. It has 4 armor + upgrades. At max its 7, so a Valk can only do 2-3 per rocket. Wraiths on the other hand can do the full 20 no problem. Few rockets and the Carrier blows, taking all the guy's with it.

If you had W + V, then you can fry the shields faster and make the minor hits capable of destroying Carrs. But the Vs could be more suited to clearing out the Scouts and Sairs that support it, at least until they get destroyed or an Arbiter fields them.

 

[Vadriel]

Yeah, I'll concede the point. I still stand by that Valks are pretty much the toughest air superiority fighter, although pound-for-pound the Scout wins all as dominator of the skies.

I'm so pissed that they're replacing my beloved Scouts with those faggy Phoenixes...I mean come on, all they're doing is taking a big shit on Toss air.

 

[Phoenix2003]

I personally never liked scouts so I just pretend they don't exist. Toss air rules w/o them. Carr/sair/arb is the way to go, baby. Finger of God FTW.
I'm sure gonna miss it.

 

[ChrisH36]

Well, The Pheonix did look awesome, and its effect of warp engine overload may be of some use.

 

[TrongaMonga]

The problem with the CArrier is that, the armor. It has 4 armor + upgrades. At max its 7, so a Valk can only do 2-3 per rocket. Wraiths on the other hand can do the full 20 no problem. Few rockets and the Carrier blows, taking all the guy's with it.

If you had W + V, then you can fry the shields faster and make the minor hits capable of destroying Carrs. But the Vs could be more suited to clearing out the Scouts and Sairs that support it, at least until they get destroyed or an Arbiter fields them.

You can't think like that, with valkyries. Say you had 12 valkyries (lol). Each one would take away, say, 3 HP from each carriers once every second (I think that's their attack speed). That goes for 36 HP gone in each carrier every second. Say you have 6 carriers, with their 300 HP and 150 shield (that goes +3 full upgrades). The carriers'd go down in about twelve seconds. Wraiths would take a bit more, and you'd have to target hem.

Seriously, the big problem with valkyries is that they seldom worked due to the 1800 maximum sprites allowed (same reason why larvaes don't show up on money maps sometimes).

 

[ChrisH36]

That, and the fact they cannot target moving units. So if you are microing back a carrier, it won't fire until it stops while the Interceptors will still target as long as the Valk is in range.