The Help Thread 1.20

QuikSilver

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lol, nice game. Same old NE crap. You left him for a long time with out checking up on him. Usually, humans are far more advanced at tier 2 than NE. But this time he slowed you down big time. He was even able to get an expo! Many people tower rush at tier 2!
When you are going to do blizzard...get the mk(clap)...and dont make rifles; make breakers.

Here is a gosu replay versus NE. Breakers/Sorcs/Priests/Morts...I think rifles are out of fashion versus NE now...lol

I couldnt upload it but here is the link to the download

http://www.wcreplays.com/replays.php?get=7515&R=2
 

None293823

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Wow, i watched it and i watched the game of T.MH]Storm who may become my 2nd most fav player. He also played like that, no rifles just casters and morts and foots. I havent watched replays lately and it seems to be so- they go out of fashion as you say just like they became outfashioned vs orc!
 

ChrisH36

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Mystic Sorcerer said:
3rd or 4th time i lose when orc makes 3-4 pults, sucks i m starting to use blizz only to destroy the pults.
Pults are lethal anyways. Kills casters from a distance, does lethal damage to melee... what more can you ask for in a siege unit. It might also help to attack the orc from behind and do some damage to the pults.

And MS, If I had 1 dollar for everytime you talked about APM! I WOULD HAVE LIKE 2000 DOLLARS MAN!
 

None293823

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Well i mention it when my opponent has higher apm especially gosu apm of 200+ and as i said for some of us it matters, i know many things dont matter on Random team. I also said that if you have higher apm it doesnt mean the one with lower is noob, but generally the one with high apm which means more actions, thus more micro because he can control his unis faster, so the one with more apm is supposed to be better. And dont let me make a thread, because im tired of noob comments - apm means nothing, it means a LOT because there is no PRO withoput HIGH APM. When all of you here dont have high apm, (btW Theroy has liek mine) i dont tell you how great i am because i have higher apm but only when my oppo alos has high APM, yes ? I dont compare me and you on apm ,yes ? ANd furthermore i dont call you RT noobs but i just say nothing about it yes ? And let me tell you somth about RTers,,,,, in Northrend you see some cg games 1v1 with title : '1v1 cg lvl 30 + only'. And when you check stats of the host of this game you see lvl 31 RT (LOL?). WHat are you RTers, think that when you are lvl 30 RT you are as good as lvl 30 solo ?? (having in mind you play RT and you havent played with real lvl 30-40 soloers, talking about those who are just RTers not solo lvl 40 and RT lvl 30). Stay out of solo, those of you who think lvl 40 RT = lvl 40 solo lol.

Yeah dont argue with me about that, cuz i can tap your mouth with real facts, mr RT :p Ownage!

I may be starting to like ToD actually, quik, i dont watch his replays, cuz their are not like Inso's with good micro you know but he still showed better micro than Storm and plays with standard strats always and i liked the way he won vs T.MH]EVE. I watched this time because i need to see how many people use no rifles vs elf and ToD also played without them! I made the exception before vs orc a long time go to see a replay of toD and same thing- it seems like really no rifles. I lose with rifles a lot vs elf lately.
 

QuikSilver

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True, for some reason rifles take mad micro against bears. And many times you end up losing even with high micro. But it can be won.

IMO, storm played AWESOME in the last tournament. He really showed his skills!

Here is my take on APM. Higher APM doesn't necessarily mean you are a better player than lower apm. Many people SPAM actions just for the sake of moving somewhere! But if you were to take an average of all players, yes in general, higher APM does indicate better micro. You might think that spamming actions is totally useless, but think of it. The more you spam actions the more aware you are in the game, less things you forget to do, and the quicker your reflexes and decisions are. By spamming actions I dont only mean movement and attacking actions, it is also like when you jump around the map and do things here and there.

Have you ever seen a GOSU not SPAM ACTIONS? DO YOU THINK 200 APM IS ALL USEFULL ACTIONS? HELL NO! IT JUST KEEPS THEM ON THEIR TOES FOR THE GAME. If youve ever seen a video of TOD or DIDI8 playing, you'll know what I am talking about.
 

ChrisH36

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Yeah, but high APM with precise actions is a really big hurtle to overcome. I mostly get an apm increase if I am in battle but also I have ranged and I am fighting melee. However, even then you can still succumb to unit losses and be outmicroed by your enemy.

I also find it sad that we are talking about games from like the best players out there. I dunno but I feel if we talked about each other's games, that would make the gaming experience more better. Then we can actually play better instead of looking like noobs in front of peopel that have 200+ APM and never really lose :(.
 

None293823

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quiksilver87 said:
True, for some reason rifles take mad micro against bears. And many times you end up losing even with high micro. But it can be won.

IMO, storm played AWESOME in the last tournament. He really showed his skills!

Here is my take on APM. Higher APM doesn't necessarily mean you are a better player than lower apm. Many people SPAM actions just for the sake of moving somewhere! But if you were to take an average of all players, yes in general, higher APM does indicate better micro. You might think that spamming actions is totally useless, but think of it. The more you spam actions the more aware you are in the game, less things you forget to do, and the quicker your reflexes and decisions are. By spamming actions I dont only mean movement and attacking actions, it is also like when you jump around the map and do things here and there.

Have you ever seen a GOSU not SPAM ACTIONS? DO YOU THINK 200 APM IS ALL USEFULL ACTIONS? HELL NO! IT JUST KEEPS THEM ON THEIR TOES FOR THE GAME. If youve ever seen a video of TOD or DIDI8 playing, you'll know what I am talking about.
Yes you said what i think in short quik ;)

BUT
1) i dont think 300 apm includes only micro and other actions but also selection, that you call useless. Still, do you think that without useless selection, if his actions come from micro and that stuff not SPAM, he wont get at least 150+ apm (with SPAM over 200 or some -> 300)?
2) Giving our BG player mTw-DIDI8 for example is not right for gosu with low apm , cuz DIDI8 makes 300 apm and in his interview to 'How do you get this insane apm?' he says he never stays in the base but smth is always in constant movemnt.. ToD also gets 190-220 but not below.


When i get 160-170 apm i use the useless selection as you call it, but a gosu doesnt make more selections than me in the beginning. The reason why i would get this 160-170(BTW it doesnt all come from selections, i also play fast with uisng many things) and a gosu 200+ is because we have equal selections in the beginning but the reset is he plays faster, uses more things faster than me .
____________________________________________________________


Now SEE why im talking about apm. Game is HU vs HU and i get my record for relatively long game of 178 APM! And he has below 100. Why do you think i get this record, because i spam more ????? Just see, i start with usual selection in which if you check apm sometimes i get only 150-160 even 140+ if i play static game . What made this record are the many micro and multiple action you see? I lost but i had much better mico than him. And if you know, the reason to post this game is not APM but exactly the micro game even though i lost. And this apm, i dont think about apm during the games as i said, this 178 came by itself -from more micro than usual. He finally forced me without expo, he had expo and the reason why the game holded so long was micro you know ? He had 0 micro so so but the rest he did just checj it quik. MAp: LT.

Now you see the logical connection about apm ? You play fast enough, you micro more --> you get higher apm. Thus, when i say higher apm it means 'I showed more micro'. This game if i had the same as his and expo the game was mine cuz i had better micro.
 

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i cant edit the last reply which is mine .. nvm

K, a loss vs lvl 30 IMBelf but a long game it was. Why i lost ? I havent seen it yet, i guess he had more food limit. But it was interesting. He does know how to play even when to tp. And no rifles here as always vs NE.

I mention how's mine and his APM only when they are high. Even 160 is not worth mentioning. But i had 172 he had 177 ! :)
 

ChrisH36

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Well tping is important. I bet some of you people didn't know that you can aim it too :). Just target the tp spell somewhere near the town hall. And your men will spawn around that region. This is useful for enclosing in enemies, keeping ranged behind buildings, or getting an advantage like attacking from the side.

That way, you can use AoA in your favor (Angle of Attack) and also base design + micro. Meaning you can do useful actions for your APM!
 

QuikSilver

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-Nice attempts to surround.
-Creeping was a bit slow; you paused a lot...work on that.
-All I can say is bad positiioning pretty much. And make a bit more mortars because he switched to ranged. Ur blizzard wasnt used to maximum effectiveness.
-Larger human armies are harder to manage than larger NE armies.
-NE IS GAY
-Dont build ur destroyed sanctum in the same place
 

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Ha, i know that . When i get higher apm it also comes from right playing like tp-ing many times, not fighting at all in some cases ( i mean further not fighting than when he has much more units, like if im waiting for strategical positions). This elf for example tp-ed when i'd tp-ed in my base or when he destroyed my Sanctum and when i came. But tp-ing immediediately when someoen tp-s at his expand to protect it is used a lot.

Azeroth or Northrend for playing ? Helloo , i dont have all early morning , which realm ? Und AKA ? Suckers they wont let me obs because im not lvl 25 and only lvl 24 hahahhahah. I'll show them some lvl-ing but 1st i need to rethink my strats.

vs Hu - *cough* after we play i will tell u wah t i do /dont
vs Orc- 2 sanctums btu new thing is mortars + blizzard for catas and works even vs 1-2 taurens + other orc shit.
vs NE: T_T - new thing no rifles - casters blizzard and morts- the rest micro and positioning
-vs UD: no more mass hawks + few griffs, if i dont kill UD before he knows i mass air im GG. Some spiders and all my hawks are down. Just gyros , 1-2 knights, 1-2 griffs , 3 heroes, Insomnia plays like that lately, i saw in a cg by 1/2 or real proz same strat used.

If u dont answer in 10 mins im out. Lets keave it for another time but over 6 hours earlier that now is thx.
 

None293823

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Nice micro by me (and u )as you can see and i got 184 apm :p. I even outmicroed you in footmen battles in g1 and in other things 2nd game. But except micro ideas also matter that much. I didnt see you expoing at the main mine tt . Thats how you won but well done, putting your expo on another place. I really havent played vs ppl who expo on TM lately and i really forgot about putting expos further from your base. I sometimes lose in bnet to worse players because i cant counter their ideas at all - which just requires more thinking or i dont counter fast enough. I dont always counter what they think of... but i will try to fix this especially vs you.
 

QuikSilver

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yeah, I planned the second game to your playstyle. I know you dont scout too much and i knew i could pull off mass gryphons. The second you see my army doesnt have anything more than footies you should have became suspicious. The first game had a cool battle, i think it was the inner fire that won it for me! Im not sure if you had any. But FL has to be used correctly and is effective only at the start then the MK becomes better. IN the first game i dont know why you went into my base like that! I had barely any units and you could have done some real damage to me.
:-/
 

None293823

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Yes, a lvl 41 Human beat me with FL and after i learnt what he did i did the same vs worse humans. The idea was to do the same or to cause you big losses. And i noticed the 1st game i could make u big losses! I know what i did wrong so i will have it in mind next time we play :)

To tell you....wtf is going on ? vs Human - i outmicro a human, i almost win and in the end i lose the battle and the game... it repeats the last 3 games vs human

vs NE: I get mass casters but i lose every time vs elf. Same thing repeats - breakers are owned by bears, my morts kill some dryads and when breakers fall, the rest dies as well. I no longer think 2 sanctums and rbeakers as units to own bears + dryads even with blizzard is good.

vs Ud: mass hawks = gg , they need few fiends and with healing just for a while all your hawks are down with web and dead-no longer useful.

bs orc: i may happen not to scout fast enough and he makes wind riders- loss again

TT
 

QuikSilver

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Ok, i just watched ur game. Very interesting. The thing with NE is that they can screw humans over with just 2 buildings!...We need 2 sanctums and a workshop to keep up.
At the end, you had 4 mortars...try to harass his base by destroying his 2 AOLs...bah, i dont know if that would work too well...but you will force him to tp...
Get the blizzard earlier, and maybe you should have pushed more at tier 2...Usually humans are better at tier 2...DH is ridiculous...
Maybe try to make expo at tier 2...
Nice micro!
 

ChrisH36

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quicksilver98 said:
At the end, you had 4 mortars...try to harass his base by destroying his 2 AOLs...bah, i dont know if that would work too well...but you will force him to tp...
If MS's oppenent was teching to t3, that can be a horrible loss for him and a strong advantage for MS. Especially if the guy was getting Adept training for the bears. Then he has to research everything again and rebuild his army before MS comes back with a bigger armada. I know I am gonna sound like a noob for saying this, but how does APM get logged? Like if 1 unit moves, it adds 1 or if 10 units attack, 10 APM is added?
 

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I just know that when i want to win as in this case, i watch for everything i can save, i play fast with my figners - not for more apm but for better micro and what is added, apm comes by itself since i dont select more and more in the beginning- my actions remain the same there and the higher and higher thing comes from the rest of my playing, i dunno how. I dont really know what adds how much to your apm. As you can see he played very well and had only 84 apm. Well the next game i played vs originally Hu player (as he says) that played elf who did same shit and won again so dont ask if he had 84 apm and thus except teleporting he didnt do so many actions, how he won. It is quite clear that even a noob who doesnt have micro but makeas the same elf shit - will lose some bears unlike smb with micro, but can still win. Why and why i lost if he had so little apm ? The answer is because i didnt use the best strat. Rifles are at least ranged although no longer used. Because if you have 70 food he has 40-50 obviously you can win with rifles and breakers too. Thats why im moving to knights even if i have to let him make bears. Now knights or bears? And Hellwolf is right, it's good to attack at tier 2 but u cant win so much before he gets tier 3 since it so happens that by the time u have breakers and mortars he already has dryads and bears, just because bears req tier 2 and the only diff is that they cant bear form but he has the units. => elf strat is tier 2 too , tier 3 just for upg.
 

ChrisH36

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For mortars, you can use them to target the dryads in the back, allowing you to cut off thier slow poison on thier knights and also to avoid splashing your knights in that scenario. I myself don't like to counter bears and dryads, I have done it a few times with orc. Even if it ment losing men even if my micro was top notch. Sometimes, even without the support of demos (demos > dryads, since i rarely ever use air except on the night elf or human races).

Rifles when there is no air around can either focus fire on the bears in that scenario or try to get the dryads in the back if you are able to fire upon them. What can be worse is if that ne brought faeries. Vs human that can be a terrible unit to have near your casters, considering one of the strengths of the human revolves around thier sorcery (almost any race does, but human it gives them the fighting edge).
 

QuikSilver

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yeah very tue, But humans need a lot more micro against NE.
mystic...HERE IS YOUR REVENGE!!!!!
Sk.inso vs sk.internationale!!!!!! go to wcreplays.com

Here is a replay of me beating hellwolf...The strat might look familiar!
crap its not uploading...ill try later...
 
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