Discussion in 'Chat & Discuss' started by Uncle_Vanya, Aug 8, 2008.
Yeah, I meant them...minus the insults.
Some more pics:
That last one is a camouflaged Tunguska anti-aircraft vehicle, armed with anti-aircraft missiles and two Mini-guns. Thats one mean machine here is another pic of it:
your forgetting the key player here
michael Phelps helping the russains in their under water operations
a very sad and angry Georgian who realized he got raped by the russain and Phelps
rofl...he was Hungarian
It's all the same to wing. Xenophobic jerk!
ever drove straight threw georgia? THERE IS NOT ONE GOD DAMN THING TO LOOK AT!!!
You've obviously never been to Atlanta. It's where the players play.
Also, I can't believe President Bush actually said something about this. Dear lord.
YouTube - Russia invades Georgia - the TRUTH
YouTube - Georgia - South Ossetia war american 12 Year Old Girl tells about war,The true face of the American "democracy" ,???? ????????)
What'll u say about that?
I love these videos. Nobody can every be truly unbiased nor bring The Truth[sup]TM[/sup]. You have to make up your own mind given the facts.*
The first video is the pure propaganda, and i know it. But the second describes the real situation in Georgia and Ossetia.
fox news lawls.
is anyone surprised, really?
I think it's safe to say that Russia has screwed itself over here. Going back to the spheres of interest idea I brought up in my last post, Russia has achieved nothing. Georgia's president is still in power, despite Russian calls for his removal, and Georgia is even more intent on joining NATO than ever, not to mention world support for Georgia has massively grown. Ukraine, also in the so called Russian sphere of influence, backed Georgia, has stated it still intends to join NATO, and has said its ready to deal on the missile defense system. Furthermore, Poland became more open to agreeing to the missile defense deal and has just signed onto it.
And outside of it's so called sphere of influence, there is an international consensus that Russia was the aggressor and Georgia the victim - it's pushed itself into international isolation. The only country in the world that backed Russia was Cuba and the G8 has become a de facto G7.
The worst part is its shown how far off Russia has come from being a liberal democracy. Many of the so called liberals in Russia rallied behind the attack and it showed how much power the Russian government has over the media in Russia.
Maybe Russia beat a tiny nation in a war, but in the big picture this is a loss for Russia.
In hindsight, though, I thought Russia would do something like this - her borders have gradually been tightened and she feels insecure especially as the likes of Georgia and Ukraine become pro-West.
Sadly, the true victims are those little nations that stand in its way.*
It was a calculated risk that would either result in the area around Russia either moving the area more pro-Russian or push them towards the west. Frankly, the odds were probably with Russia; the west has little leverage as Russia is needed to keep sending energy to Europe and to fight nuclear proliferation.
Sadly, the case is just Russia and the US trying to poke each other in the eye with sticks. We're pushing for a missile defense shield that is crazy expensive, doesn't work, and is meant to destroy ICBMs from a country that doesn't have ICBMS (Iran). We're pushing for an expansion of NATO that is no way in the interests of the US (Ukraine + Georgia).
Though you've got it right; the victims are the little nations where the fighting is taking place.
Ukraine is not in the Russian sphere of influence, we already gave up on Ukraine, but not on its people most of whom wish to side with us (approval ratings for NATO membership are very low in that country), Ukrainians and Russians are one and the same have been for a millenia. We deal with Ukraine accordingly minding that their government is not our friend.
What have we lost? The mission of this war was to stop Georgian aggression against South Ossetia, that mission was accomplished. We also shown the world that we are ready to play rough and can still spank the lot of them militarily. Poland was going to go through with missile defense deal either way, Russia will respond to it by placing cruise missile launch sites in Belarus to target the ABM radar and missile launch site. This is good for Russia, the stale period is coming to an end, all those charades are over with we now see clearly who is our friend and who is not, who is ready to be our partners and who is only interested in applying their own set of double standards upon us. Europe failed us, failed international law and not the first time but the game table is set now, Russia now has new resolve to strengthen itself because of these developments.
Which demonstrates clearly that the West is not interested in being a partner of Russia, they are only interested in Russia being their puppet state, which means Russia needs to adjast its foreign policy towards the West accordingly to fulfill its own interests. Russia was not the aggressor in this conflict and that is a fact.
Actually, the opposite, Russian media being state run is status quo, Western media lying through their teeth and waging a propaganda campaign against Russia disregarding all the facts, that is what was surprising in this conflict, or rather eye opening.
Loss? What did we loose? This conflict lead to our separation from a group of nations that at one point wanted to pretend to be our friends but only as long as we did not put our national interests in front of theirs.
In either case one way or the other Saakashvilli's time is at an end, he will either be removed from office or he will be killed, one way or the other, watch for it in the next couple of weeks. Russia was going to surpass USSR military by 2020 according to most experts, I think now the gov't will increase military spending and we will be back much sooner.
The war with Georgia was a pawn in a bigger game; the area around Russia is becoming more and more pro-western, something that is not in the interests of Russia. In the perspective of expanding Russian political power and influence, a move had to be made and the international isolation that resulted from that move being the war with Georgia only hurt that. International isolation makes it much more favorable for a country to be with the rest of the world rather than Russia for the sake of their economic prosperity and political influence.
And you say ending this 'charade' is in the best interest of Russia? How exactly is world powers poking each other in the eye with sticks in the interest of any country? How is moving towards provoking aggression between countries that have the power to destroy the world in any country's best interest?
You bring up the growth of Russian military might; that's a laughable joke. We live in a nuclear age where fighting a major war is not measured in relative terms but where there is an absolute threshold that can be met with nuclear weapons. Russia can have as many men, tanks, planes, ships, or anything else in its armed forces, but it's nothing more than a joke in a nuclear age where nuclear weapons can destroy entire countries.
All in all though, I'd probably say the biggest loss for the Russian people was veering off the road to being a liberal democracy. A country can be as powerful as possible, but, in my opinion, it amounts to nothing if its people aren't free.
Economically Georgia is dependent on Russia 100%. Spheres of influence aren't established with handshakes, they're established with military and economic domination, our leadership will now get much more bold and will come back to the proven tactics of fulfilling our national interests, no more of this unnecessary politeness with the enemy.
Two toughest kids on the block are always going to end up fighting, might as well get it over it. My country has a destiny, whats going on right now is a part of it, I want to see the destiny fulfilled within my lifetime. Provoking? We're not going to play your game by your rules like we have been for the past decade, we're going to play by our own rules now and what you will make of it is your decision, it does not concern us in the least bit. This charade being over is a good thing, it will accelerate revival of Russia, the reaction from the West has sent a clear message to the Russian people, the West is our enemy, the West is not interested in a partnership with us, this shall keep all the liberal crazies like Kasparov quiet. Its a good thing.
If Russia conventionally takes back all of Europe up to the Rhine river will US, UK and France use their nukes against Russia knowing full well that there will be a retaliation in kind? I don't see anyone launching nukes over Iraq.
Please don't tell me you believe in all the ideological bull**** the ignorant American liberals push on us about how the 90s was the Golden Age of Russian democracy. I've been there, if thats democracy I want no part of it, reduction in human worth and dignity is a more correct statement while describing that period in my countries history. People were happy in USSR and "liberal democracy" is but a myth, a cruel joke played on the ignorant masses who believe that it exists, nothing more. My people chose this path of their free will, the approval ratings aren't lying Putin really is popular.
Yet you somehow claim that pushing Russia into political isolation and it's neighbors towards the west benefits Russia? If Georgia or Ukraine join NATO Russia loses all military domination whatsoever because the countries will have a mutual defense pact with the west. Economically, using economic force against nations the west view as important (Ukraine and Georgia for example) will result in 'humanitarian missions' which may allow Russia to cause short term harm to small nations, but in the long term only furthers its isolation. Face it, the war with Russia as carried out was a tactical blunder.
So in other words you want war and believe peace is impossible? You also fail to deal with the point of how exactly two countries provoking each other into aggression is in either of their interest.
The problem of use of small scale nuclear weapons was considered and solved during the Cold War, tactical nuclear devices (see here). The western strategy in the Cold War for such a situation was to use tactical nuclear devices to engage in limited nuclear war to either force the USSR to back off or force a Russian first-strike in a total nuclear war. Point being, conventional warfare is a joke in a nuclear age.
Second, no one launched nuclear weapons over Iraq because Iraq wasn't part of any mutual defense pact, something many of the former Soviet republics are considering. It is reasonable to consider that mutual defense pacts will only expand.
Academics have never considered Russia a free nation; the best score it was ever given was partially free; since 2005 it has reverted back to not free. Sadly, the Russian people have never been free. The sad truth is that Russia has revoked the little freedom it gave it's citizens.
The man who has degraded the worth and dignity of the Russian people the most is Putin. He's decided Russians have no right to make decisions for themselves and is forcing them into a cycle of poverty. As for him being popular, cheering for a driver who is going to drive you off is cliff is still going over a cliff.
Nonsense, the war was a complete and utter success. What else were we supposed to do? Fear the west? Not act because of the west? The west is our enemy, that one thing is clear, these developments have cut up the grey area, there is no grey area now and that is good. Isolation? Russia will revise its policy towards NATO all on its own after these happenings regardless of what the west might do. The point is, this was bound to happen at some point, Russia was never going to be the west and the sooner we stopped playing the West's game, the better.
Russia was only responding to aggression in Georgia, not provoking it. Russia is already provoked enough by NATO's expansion. Yes, peace is impossible or rather it was never possible, not after the West has failed to make Russia yet another one of its puppet states ripe for exploitation as they tried in the 90s. This is in Russia's national interests, the only way for Russia to protect its sovereignty from the West is to oppose the West.
I doubt your side will have the guts to push the button, tactical nuclear warfare is a joke, the moment anything nuclear explodes on the battlefield you know humanity is getting wiped out in the next hour or so. In addition you underestimate us, your arrogance will be your own undoing. Russia will build up its conventional force and it will act to protect its national interests.
NATO expansion was a problem long before Georgia-Ossetia conflict, it still remains the same problem, nothing changed. There are many smart people seating in Kremlin, they'll figure something out, Georgia has shown that Russia has the guts to back up its words with action and we won't stop here.
The sad truth is that you have no clue what so ever what you are talking about. Your 'academics' have a tendency to see what they want, somehow they overlooked the 2000 presidential election in US that basically proved that US is an oligarchy, also this whole "free" press nonsense is a joke, the recent conflict with Georgia has shown clearly how politically biased the so called "free" media truly is. Nothing from the West can be seen as unbiased in relation to Russia.
Once again, don't talk about what you do not know. Life in Russia has improved greatly under Putin, salaries grew, life expectancy grew, we're currently in a babyboom. Whats not to like? His ability to put Russia's interests above those of the West is a plus, not a minus. Russia will not be absorbed by you, and that is all there is to that. Btw, there is no one disputing the fact that Putin would have won all the elections he wanted even if those elections were super-duper democratic, the Russian people have made their choice. Putin is a great leader not just in words but in action and we have learned to treasure that.
If US wants to go as far as using nukes, so be it, Russia standing by while the West encircles us is a non-option. Speeding along a conclusion to the current situation is in Russia's interests, its kill or be killed, there is no third option.
But aside from Russia reestablishing its former possessions through military strength, Russia will remove all caps on its weapons supplies to nations unfriendly to the west and then we'll see how you like terrorists running around not with old RPG-7s and worn out Chinese rip-offs of AK-47s but AK-103s with recoil canceling mechanism and RPG-29s that are able to pierce through the side armor of any western tank (even got through the front armor of a Challenger 2 in Iraq a couple of years back, blew the drivers foot off), and of course Kornet-E ATGM that can destroy any tank you have in your arsenal, and Igla-M MANPADs to wipe out your helicopters and CAS aircraft, and GPS and radar jamming equipment and of course an advanced integrated SAM network incorporating S-400, Pantsir-S1, Tor-M1/M2 and other goodies. You have a lot to loose by making Russia your enemy, but for some reason you do not realize this, oh well, whatever happens next you brought it upon yourselves.
In recent news I heard that Russia will most likely be placing a permanent military base in South Ossetia. Russia IS NOT required to care what the West thinks of its actions, we're not going to accept the double standards you place upon us, especially since you are the ones who've been starting wars all over the world for the past decade and have been spreading your influence through military means.
I already stated what both Russia and the west should do in my first post in this thread:
"Spheres of influence all over again; US is pushing into what is perceived as the Russian sphere of influence (Estonia, Latvia, etc in NATO + missile defense) and Russia is trying to reach out into the Caribbean, the 'American sphere of influence'. It's just mind boggling as to how adding Georgia into NATO is in the interest of the US and how Russia strengthening ties with Cuba and Venezuela is in theirs. It's nothing but the two counties acting like children and it's going to push us into another Cold War. Spheres of influence is an outdated concept that both countries need to get over."
Please explain to me how the concept of spheres of influence is relevant in a world becoming ever more connected in globalization. This is no more than clinging to a concept that is completely out of date and no longer applies to the modern world. At one point in history standing in a line and shooting rifles while wearing bright colored uniforms was a proven tactic - the world evolves and people need to get with it.
And make Russia a puppet state... lol? I'd like to see you show any international document that doesn't recognize Russia as a sovereign nation. Making it a puppet state by adding it to the G8? Make it a puppet state by putting it on the UNSC and give it a veto power? Can you say paranoid?
First, don't for a second call it my side; I am a military non-interventionist, hence I wouldn't support military intervention. Second, jokes don't tend to work in practice - the threat of tactical nuclear warfare did in the Cold War.
Like cause the chainganging effect that caused WWI by accident? Except this time with nuclear weapons? (Despite how terrible it would be, there have been IR papers written on it since the Cold War started and they're a pretty interesting read you should look into since you seem interested in this kind of stuff.)
They overlooked the 2000 election in the United States in an examination of Russia in 2008? 'My academics'? Freedomhouse is an international organization. Free press nonsense is a joke? Feel free to discredit this:
"The United States has a free, diverse, and constitutionally protected press. In recent years, though, a debate has arisen over the impact of ownership consolidation, either by sprawling media companies with outlets in many states and formats or by corporate conglomerates with little or no previous interest in journalism. At the same time, internet journalists and bloggers play a growing role in the coverage of political news, and internet access is widespread in the country.
Controversy has also arisen over attempts by federal prosecutors to compel journalists to divulge the names of confidential sources. In 2007, a federal judge threatened two reporters from the San Francisco Chronicle with imprisonment for refusing to reveal the source of information leaked from a grand jury investigating steroid use by professional athletes. The case was resolved when the attorney responsible for the leak acknowledged his role. A bill to provide limited protection from demands for information about confidential sources in federal cases has passed the House. Such press shield laws already exist in 37 states."
Is it not a fair analysis? and why?
Nothing in the west can be unbias to Russia? How about access to the Russian media? Is that anti-Russian too? Because ya know, we westerners do have access to it.
And feel free to make a thread on how the US is an oligarchy - then you can make on arguing that the world is flat, evolution isn't true, and the moon is made of cheese.
What's not to like? He's taken the little freedom Russians have and stripped that little worth and dignity from the people he was suppose to be helping. Ya know, economies can be made better and leaders can listen to their citizens first without taking away their freedom. The Russian people didn't have a real choice. Read the facts I presented to you. His political opponents get no real debate or coverage (see the freedomhouse article you seem to have ignored). And just because I'm presenting actual facts (in the form of academic sources) that clash with blind nationalism doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about.
And I ask this seriously - do you really want a war with the west that would probably end in a nuclear war? It seems as if you're desperately hoping and supporting the start of one.
Separate names with a comma.