My views of things

Emperor Pan I

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I tried my hardest to not sound biased in any way. I did focus more on ud since i played them more, but I am happy to say I am playing random ALOT more than i used to.

To start, I really like warcraft, one of the bette blizzard games. However I am finding alot of problems as I go around. I'm finding I am not having fun when i go random and play as the Undead race, or when I am on a tavern map as orc against a night elf.
The following is some observations about the game as I see it, and a few are points me and Aragorn agreed upon over an AIM conversation awhile back.

First off, the game is naturaly flawed, so much in a way, I no longer call it a strategy. It may have been intended to be a strategy/rpg hybrid sort of game, but that is over, it isn't either. Its something entirely differnet.

The two flawed parts of the game are Heros and Units.

Heros are naturaly flawed, because they completely take balance and piss on it. Consider this. Every night elf u come by one time or another complains about the balance of Gargs. In actuality, gargs are completely fine and even lack in thier primary function which is anti-air. The reason however that Night elf players can't counter it (besides half of them just massing hunts) is the Undead heros. The fact is, the heros throw off the balance.

Each race in some way is flawed from the start of every game, and the only way around it, is to exploit a flaw in whatever race ur playing. Orc for example, has an inability to counter heavy air. Though they have the means to do it, it is incredibly taxing, and requires an uneven field of battle. So an Undead Vs. Orc, an Undead player will go for Frostwyrms, because orc can't counter it. However Orc vary easly can go wyverns, exploing an undead weakness in the process of "balancing" out the game.

Playing Undead mirror matches. I am 100 win % simply because of Aoe nuking. Undeads weakness, is crappy units. AOE rapes undead, so chainwave, nova/panda and such aoe rapes. in the days of the AM/BM duo with mass AOE, undead got it the worst, cause of the small crappy units. Play an undead mirror, get a Lich followed by a panda and max out AOE as fast as you can. Every units will fall very, very fast, especialy once u match thier units u are automaticly put ahead simply by the hero choice.

Nightelves have no strenth hero. they have 3 agility and one intellegence, all at 320 speed. which in itself is another problem i have but ill get to that later. This makes NE even more fragile, which allows for certain exploitation. Ne have been nerfed the most, cause they are the strangest race, they are fundamentaly different than the last three. no other race has had as many abusable units/buildings(buildings refering to the "ent" style Anicent rushes way back when). One thing I notice, is that with NE, games are so much faster, cause things are so much easier achieve what i want. Probly one of the easiest races to expand with, fastest to heal, which allows for a strenght hero out of the tavern like the BM to be so effective. However, I find racial heros lack because they are so easy to kill. however the racial heros have amazing spells, and they are all viable in most games.

Humans, I have to say don't lack a real weakness, besides the dependance all seem to grow on the AM. They have a good hard counter to almost every unit. I have more fun playing them, because i know I can take anything i get thrown at me.

when a counter fails, the game is not balanced.
I'm going to stress this with the UD vs Orc match up because it goes both ways so very well. A DK and fiends, can beat a FS with grunts. A FS/TC with wyverns can beat a DK/lich with fiends. A DK/Lich/CL with frostwyrms and fiends can beat a FS/TC/SH with grunts or taurens bats, and beserkers. The enitre thing is sad, because in this matchup counters are not the real counters. I have had more success doing a necro wagon or a tower rush, against wyverns than using fiends or gargs. I still have yet to be defeated by an undead player when massing wyverns despite what Ahappychinese says. But Why isn't anything fixed? It seem sobvious enough, but the fact is not everyone exploits, and seeing as how the dreaded micro seems to play a key, blizzard doesnt seem to care as long as the matchups stay at 50% on thier all so mighty balance charts.

It is not heard alot about anymore, but the gruntapult was a good example of NE. Hunts, dryads both unarmored units. hunts are effectively the best tier 1 unit in the game, but as with footmen, they become obsolete once the game progress to tier 2 and tier 3. Which is the opposite for undead, where ghouls become better by tier 3 out doing the abombination. Grunts however, can last me a whole game if I see fit. Ne have more trouble with siege, simply because thier units are so suseptable to them. That is aweakenss. Bringin a siege unit into a battle with a NE, will produce double the effectiveness, than simply brining siege into any other race battle.

Racial weakness give the illusion of balance, cause going after a racial weakness, before the other person goes after yours the game can stay even on who is better at exploiting. I have seen it more often than I care too.

Heros throw off balance, but other factors effect it. One thing is collision size. Fiends are fat, refering to the description an undead player gave them. reason why wyverns do so good, is wyverns have no collision size, allowing them to all get to a unit to focus quickly. More often than not, i have seen replays, where games have been decided becasue a hero falls in battle. Not only is that fundamentaly wrong for this game, but alot of times its because large units where in the way. Large units don't compare to small units, cause small units can get to a battle, and have more attack. which is one reason ghouls are great, is they are small and more can get to a battle dealing more DPS than an abombination. Problem is, the game has been balanced around this, changing alot of things, to compensate for the basic fundamental game problems.

like mentioned earlier, a loss of a hero, can easily cost u the game. why should that cost u the game. when a hero gets to level 6, unless ur hero can get there fast, most likely the game is over. A Demon hunter will rape very quickly if left unchecked, especialy solo. A level 10 hero fits the "hero rapes everything scenario" luckily they are hardly seen. A Level 10 TC with an orb of lightning I have used to great effect. Then there are things like imbalanced ultimates where an infernal can literaly kill an entire base if left alone, then there are useless ultiamtes like animate dead or big bad voodoo.

Warcraft has 30x more micro than starcraft ever required. However, all u need to be successful in warcraft is a cookiecutter build order and good micro. Counters can get beaten by micro. Micro is the determining factor in many games. while one race produces a counter, the other has better micro and can still win the game. If u hook up racial weaknesses, and good micro u can easily become very successfull at warcraft.

One other thing is the randomness. Items create huge imbalances. especialy when two people who creep the same creep levels, one ends up with a book of the dead, instant 6 creeps to someone who gets a mana stone. who got the short end of that stick. Item drops are random, and htough item levels tried to help balance, at the same levels, better item drops change a game dramaticly.

Then, add in the fact that Blizzard can't balance. Starcraft was balanced fast, because they had a good balancing team, though many, many things about SC keep me away from it. Warcraft has a different balance team, that likes to take one step foreward and two steps back. They will stompy abusive exploits, then create 2 more in the process. OR they will take something that is fine, and completely make it useless (AMD/Possess) or take something and make it incredibly abuseable(Raise dead). Everyone knows that necros are the most abusive shit in the undead players hands, yet they were buffed to my surprise, during the time of my necrowagon abuse days. Reason why, undeads other racial weakness.

Basicly, when it comes to undead, I touched upon this in another thread, is they can't do shit at tier 1 and 2. Tier 3 is where undead shines. Every race is better through tier 1-2. tier 3 units and upgrades, coupled with amazing heros make them viable. Undead units are shit, there is no way around it. Undead heros are off the chart amazing. The two balance eachother out. There we get a sort of balance, but imbalances still play through, simply because of garg abuse, or fiend abuse. I am not going to lie, the DK is imbalanced, but the fact that fiends and ghouls without the DK are horrible, it balances out.

When I get to humans, some of thier units are shit too, footmen, knights. They are good units no doubt, but thier uses seem so limited without the almighty caster support. which is why the "big 3" are used so often. The Archmage carries the human race, giving unlimited mana and a summon to the army keeping up with other races. Ud has the DK with unholy aura keeping ud units on par and fast while healing with coil makes undead seem impossible to beat. Then u got the FS, which has those godamn wolves, which allow for one of the best creeping summons in the game.

Problem is, these three heros carry thier races, to create a sort of balance, with thier races failings. In the end u got some balance, but a sort of wierd balance, where nothing is truely balanced, nothing is truely fair, but in the eyes of the many, it seems balanced.
 

None293823

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You're crazy. Yes so many imbas ,so many failures to counter and imba items that warcraft is no longer strategy. Nice view. If you want to quit the games because of all this ok, dont mind.
 

Theroy

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I agree with almost everything except undead can't do anything at tier 1 and two. I'm not going to argue that in because you're not looking for an argument just posting your views. The game is nothing but imbalances and very little strat and micro it's always the same thing over again.
 

Ntrik_

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I knew that even before RoC officially came out, that was the words from the beta testers.

My friend, being one of beta testers, decided not to play WC3 because of imba.
 

Samsara

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war2 and the command and conquer series by westwood were pretty good because they were so balanced. Reason being was that there were two teams and each unit on one team had it´s equivalent on the opposing team. When SC hit, Protoss was by far the most powerful race to choose (look at it with out patching the game) until they spent lots of time to balance the game where each race had a similar unit.

The problem with war3 is that there are too many units that are very different. Take a footman and a grunt, HUUUUGE difference. Toss in the "make or break" heros that are used as a crutch and you are bound to have problems.
 

Emperor Pan I

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Actualy, warcraft 2 was imbalanced, because bloodlust was 10x better than humans slow
 

Forged

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Human Paladins had heal and holy vision, ogre mages had bloodlust and kilrogs eye.

Heal was actually as good if not beter if you had decent micro.
 

VBadGirl

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Heheheh u guys look only at the empty side of the glass. i in a way like the imbalance which changes from patch to patch. It Keeps u wonder whats the next abusable thing and varies the game. the strategies always change instead of the same ones.

I got used to the imbalanced issues a long time ago :).
 
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well, that took me about 3 hours to read but anyways, what do you expect pan? When people demand that races be unique and have their own abilities and be balanced at the same time? That's about impossible because the game will never ever be balanced. You cant have about 50 different skills, 50 different unit combinations, 15 different heroes and expect to have a perfect game. Besides, warcraft is fine how the way it is - well except for entangle roots =)
 

None293823

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VBadGirl said:
Heheheh u guys look only at the empty side of the glass. i in a way like the imbalance which changes from patch to patch. It Keeps u wonder whats the next abusable thing and varies the game. the strategies always change instead of the same ones.

I got used to the imbalanced issues a long time ago :).
yeah Pan is just turning into Theroy about imbas.

If something is imba, own before he makes the imab strat.
 

Emperor Pan I

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Mystic Sorcerer said:
yeah Pan is just turning into Theroy about imbas.

If something is imba, own before he makes the imab strat.
Did you actualy read anything I actualy said? if not, please do before making stupid comments. if u read it, i can only pity you
 

Emperor Pan I

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VBadGirl said:
pan.. one advicew for u. stop bitching about the match up ud vs orc and do what go_stop did :)). 2-0 vs zacard ;)
you ****ing hilarious, considering im not even playing undead, and majority of the time im niether of these races.

All of you need to stop being so stupid, and stop looking for ways in which to attack me. The point of this thread had nothing to do with bitching about imbalances, just my understanding of how the game is flawed as a whole.
 

VBadGirl

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no, of course u werent bitching... ~~.. of course u were expressing ur feelings regarding the orc vs ud match up.... wtf was I thinking anyway? >.>.
 

Emperor Pan I

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I mentioned one paragrapgh on the actual matchup, and it was just an example after playing both sides and watching several replays.
 

VBadGirl

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LOL wald. considering both use the same server.. figure it out for yourself -.-.

pan I dont understand one thing... why all this?. I mean do you think blizzard will give a penny on your feelings about balance? i give u a hint.. they dont. I see this as a time consuming usless thread. were u bored or something pan?.
 

Forged

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vb how about you shut the **** up please. He wrote an an opinon post about how he feels about warcraft3, he compared it and analyzed it. He wasn't bitching about some sort of imbalance, he was just making a point. Now please shut up.
 

Ntrik_

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Dont make me start closing and warning, I want to keep this thread opened damn it -.-

and its just Pan's opinion vbad (good to see you back), no need to say that Blizz wont care about it, even if they want to, Blizzard cant change the game.
 

None293823

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I feel that warcraft is a game with strats and coutners and micro and things like 'there is no way to counter' do not exist. The starts are completely counterable if you just use your brain.

The game is a typical RTS despite all the these things with heroes and items or the same starts used.
My opinion on that is racial weakness does not exist. There may be some imbalances but everything can be countered and there is no need to think war3 is not a typical strategy game. Now Im also expressing opinion
 
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