Imbalances in 1.18

Discussion in 'Warcraft III' started by Revelade, Aug 30, 2005.

?

"Many cookie-cutter heros (i.e. BM, DH, DK) should be nerfed

  1. Yes, this game is imbalanced.

    3 vote(s)
    23.1%
  2. No, the game is balanced.

    9 vote(s)
    69.2%
  3. Haven't Decided, what's nerfing? :(

    1 vote(s)
    7.7%
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  1. FleshRipper[pd]

    FleshRipper[pd] Member!

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    I think we should allow the top ranked players to decide this. Because our oppinion dosn't really matter compared to there's...
     
  2. QuikSilver

    QuikSilver Forum *********

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    Well, thats a main point that everyone is missing out. Does Blizzard want to make its game suited for people with amazing micro/macro? Or normal micro/macro?

    Take bears/archers/dryads....It is hard to counter these with humans...rifles/breaker/caster combo...it needs quite some micro...

    And here is an imbalance that ALL HUMAN PLAYERS SHOULD AGREE WITH!!! DH's level 6 is ridiculous...it tears the human army apart...dont know about other races though...
     
  3. ChrisH36

    ChrisH36 Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.

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    It also tears apart undead crypt fiends and skeletons with relative ease.
    Meta splash is a real ground killer, yet most of the time: strong heroes and air could take him down in meta. But the evasion might also make it difficult.

    Oh well, what could you expect from one of my favorite heroes and also one of the most deadly heroes in Reign of Chaos.
     
  4. None293823

    None293823 Premium Member

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    Ok i think DK and DH are fine , we can really make a poll on BM only.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'll just give a clear opinion about what i think

    HU vs NE
    Human cannot complain because when you are in shape you can counter bears with rifles, casters and scrolls and blizzard every time. Even elf cannot complain because more bears and micro can also kill fewer rifles (fewer than bears) and casters. As i said, warden can kill casters fast with knives so elf can also win. DH is good mana burner and at lvl 6 with mass potions to survive can turn the game into win.

    HU vs Orc
    Although this doesnt refer to me, I think Plunder is better, no need to heal everywhere and mostly to creepjack on healing wells with BM like just kill the mage there and take the item. Orc cannot complain because they can win with wolves (you are ready to mass bats and no gryphs for HU) or sham pults grunts strat. Of course, it's a mistake to make mass wind riders thinking you can win , not if you dont mass bats too. Taurens and lust and no bats - well, griffs, DONT SAY IMBA cuz tauren and lust is imba if you dont have air so you can give up with taurens start - btw gosu players dont use mass taurens. In the upper strats where you can really mass bats and expo if needed you can stop air human. If human uses rifles like 3 months ago and more, they die to riders and even to sham + gruntapult as FS and TC are good choice. Orc has the units to counter if you just make enough of what is needed.


    HU vs UD
    You see, mass rifles are owned vs mass ghoul strat and in fact eevry HU ground is owned by UD. If you have knights and fewer air you can be owned by mass dests. The question is how can UD stop air cuz they dont complain about Hu ground?? (casters die, knights < wyrms or dests if hu has no air or few air) . In this replay, he harassed me well by killing many peasasnts but i expoed fast - thats the best choice in the Human view especially LT. Now you cant say this is imba if you dont have expo and dont start massing fiends and aboms and stop massing dests when you see mass hu air.

    My -= few =- suggestions:

    HU:
    - Give Humans Dust of appearance instead of Mechanical Critter
    - Hawks have already been nerfed, the only offer i can make is increase the gold cost or build time of flying machines cuz hawks and mass gyros and few griffs is really hard for UD. Hawks die like rifles from nova and coil and you need scrolls to keep them alive.

    NE:
    Dont nerf units or heroes (i can't think of the problems of Elves ). Increase hp of dryads ... by 50. ^^

    UD:
    -Increase armor of dests or damage, i dont know... . Dont nerf heroes or units.
    - Add an upgrade to increase hp of crypt fiends in tier 3 so as to counter air human.

    O:
    -Nerf BM - Windwalk, increase DMG of chain lighting and shockwave sth like that.
    - Add dust of appearance in the Voodo lounge instead


    NEUTRAL:

    -Nerf DR with more mana req for Black Arrow or decrease the hp of skeletons (and duration )
    - Nerf FL by more mana req for lava spawns and lower duration. The Volcano should work even when the FL takes another action like 'Move' i.e. no buff or effect of hero like (Volcano Effect-caster).
    - Give Tinker the ability to attack air while in robogoblin form. (with no bonus dmg vs air)
    - Increase Panderen movement speed

    ITEMS:
    -Remove Dust of Appearance from the goblin merchant (as every race should have it close in the base)
    - Decrease the gold cost of boots
    - Add a dispel wand with 2 charges available only after ... at the time potion of invulnerability and scroll of healing is available
    - Make Book of Dead be dropped by stronger creeps - increase the lvl of the item from 4 to 5 or 6. Sometimes this item with or without FL or DR is the reason to win.


    CREEPS:
    -Decrease the creeps guarding the Goblin Obs on Twisted Meadows- remove priest or 2 troll trappers (lvl 3).


    Maps:
    -Replace Echo Isles by Plunder Isle
    - Remove Hellfire, Broken Shard, Bandit Ridge and add suitable Maps like the current most played maps but on the place of Broken shard and the other 2 NOT on the place of Twisted, Turtle, LT , Gnoll wood, 2 rivers .

    Sth like that

    AND BTW THOSE WHO ARE MEMBERS IN BLIZZARD FORUM PLS POST THESE SUGGESTIONS and WHAT I THINK OF RACES in their forums. LET ME KNOW THAT IT IS POSTED by giving a link to the location of my post in Blizzard forums. PLS



    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  5. UD_PLAYER

    UD_PLAYER Member!

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    ??

    Maps:
    -Replace Echo Isles by Plunder Isle
    - Remove Hellfire, Broken Shard, Bandit Ridge and add suitable Maps like the current most played maps but on the place of Broken shard and the other 2 NOT on the place of Twisted, Turtle, LT , Gnoll wood, 2 rivers .


    i dont like echo isles... the rest are fine maps if you ask me... a lot of stufff i agree on from your article except these.


    As for the bm i was wondering if ud could get lets say an upgrade at tier 1 to increase acolyte hp by about 75 or so ? this way bm would have to hit it one or 2 more times giving me more time to counter him.


    maybe that would be imbalanec tho ? dont know post your thoughts on this
     
  6. None293823

    None293823 Premium Member

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    I think Plunder is better than Echo and if Echo remains, why not have both Echo Isles and Plunder Isles ?

    That makes an aco imba especially if any race has to harass acos all the time, yeah by adding dust to human it wont stop BM from very early harass like only frost tower can save acos from very early harass but nerfing BM by greatly reducing the duration of wind walk - 7 second like in Dota some heroes :) ahahha


    Yeah and would you post the rest you also agree with in Blizzard forums, pls ??
     
  7. Ntrik_

    Ntrik_ Premium Member

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    these are the reasons that I veto down 2 player maps, you should do that too :)
     
  8. UD_PLAYER

    UD_PLAYER Member!

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    u know guys u might be onto something here... if 2 player maps are removed... harass is harder cause opponent is harder to find, tower rushed are harder to perfrom. although windwalk duration should be reduced but not to as low as 7 secs. :p
     
  9. Revelade

    Revelade BattleForums Member

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    Pan, I don't hate you, but I don't seem to agree with your points about the BM.

    He can pull out nearly 4 WW out of the bat. This means there is a very good chance at least 1 acolyte will die, especially if the UD player has gone creeping. Also, it's not just that his WW is great, but his agility and damage in general is amazing, compared to other heroes.

    Dust isn't at hand... when you are creeping. It's not like all UD players keep their heroes at base. And when you are creeping, are you going to TP? Sure as hell no. So you have to run back, by that time, an acolyte could have died and the BM could have WWed to escape your nerubian towers and ghouls.

    Even if you danced acolytes around, hit him with ice tower AND chased him with ghouls, he can just WW and hit the same acolyte again. Wherever that acolyte goes, he can follow.

    Scout? So you are saying to send my DK to his base, wasting time I could have spent on creeping? So you say scout, while he can rip acolytes at base, forcing me to slow my tech? And when you try to harass him, he can move that 1 hurt peon, not ONLY to safety inside a burrow, but also attacking you at the same time? And even if you somehow managed to slay a peon, he can easily move a wood peon to gold, if he is teching, WHILE you are left with 4 acolytes if you teched.

    Dust is only good when you are near the BM. Unless you sit at your base all day, chances are, you may creep. This is the perfect opportunity for the BM to strike. Unfortunately, this situation happens often.

    Shades following BM? If a BM WW, he will be at 352 movement speed, 2 speed ahead of your shade, meaning, he can outrun it, even if he doesn't know it's there.

    Sorry if I'm late. I didn't realize it was moved.

    And also, I accidentaly voted for the balanced side, so it should be 4 votes for balance, 3 votes for imbalance. It was worded in an awkward way =(

    I thought you both played decently. The orc was a worse player in terms of strategy, though his micro was okay. First of all, he sees a clear view of not ONE but TWO aviaries and a building castle at 7:20. He then proceeds to make bats a full 2 minutes after that view. Seriously, did he think you would go dragonhawks?

    Then after you hit his base at 10:00, he just camps his army there. For the rest of the game, his army stays there. Had he scouted your base, he could have easily taken it down since you only had a few gryphs and the nature of the raider.

    When he catches you creeping, he prefers to get footies that are full of life rather than taking out the creep that you were hitting... I find that odd.

    So in conclusion, yes he did scout a bit, BUT he didn't use that information to his benefit, therefore he was not a good orc player, or rather player in general.
     
  10. Emperor Pan I

    Emperor Pan I Respected Member

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    he can perform only 3 Wind walks on a level 1 mana pool. At level 3 he can perform exactly 4 Windwalks.
    His agility is only a factor in deciding his armor, and he is below the DH in that area, on on par with the warden. His attack is high at level 1 compared to other heros, but with each level, every other hero gets a better attack compared to his attack.

    Here is what I meant. If you have a tomb of relics, you can buy dust. At any point in the game you should never complain that he gets away becuase he is invisible. That is your problem. "You have to run back". No you don't. in fact if you see a BM trying to harass your Acolytes, begin building another acolyte to replace it. Then take your units your "creeping with" and rush. It is obvious he is either teching, or you can get some ghouls. You have to be stupid to hero harass with a Dk, so you rush the **** out of him.

    I said take a ghoul to scout. Read. and sending a ghoul to scout "wasting your time you could have spent on creeping"? Do you know how the leveling system works? Your hero can be halfway accross the map and your ghouls kill a creep, your one hero gets the exp.
    Never said hero harass. Hero harass is for pussys that don't know shit about the game (unless agaisnt Ne, in which case it is almost mandatory). You rush. grow some balls, suck up the loss of an acolyte, grab a rod, dust and a bunch of ghouls and attack. If he tech, what the hell can he do to you? Worst he cna do is kill a few acolytes, you kill his burrow, acolytes mean shit compared to losing a burrow.

    If you know what he is going to do, why the hell creep? It makes no sense to let him get away with teching.
     
  11. Dream_Walker

    Dream_Walker BattleForums Senior Member

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    ask chris my entangling roots combined with his forces and my archers totally pwn bm. he is still ghey tho
     
  12. Ntrik_

    Ntrik_ Premium Member

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    uh no .
     
  13. None293823

    None293823 Premium Member

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    I dont know about other races, but with HU you creep spots close enough, even with militia, to go back and if you have dust- to reveal and kill/make BM tp. And 2nd- you can tp MK with staff who has dust .

    Omg Inso lost to that orc mouz.geil ... and therefore I also have problems vs Orc. Quik, Im taking ur strat
     
  14. QuikSilver

    QuikSilver Forum *********

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    what the gryph strat? lol....
     
  15. Revelade

    Revelade BattleForums Member

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    I said nearly 4. I said this because he should have enough time to regenerate mana to get the fourth one in. Of course, you are right with the exactly 4 ww at level 1. You seem to ignore the inclusion of critical strike. At level 2, his average jumps to 39, level 3 it goes to 41, at level 10, he does 61 average damage with cs included. You also have to consider that the bonus damage is focused into a single victim, which is a giant plus so it's very effective vs heroes. CS as you can see, should not be ignored.

    We already know that you can buy dust at ToR. My problem? Look pan, I don't know how to say this any simpler to you, but NOT ALL UD PLAYERS KEEP THEIR HERO AT THEIR BASE AT ALL TIMES. Have you ever thought that UD players might tech while a BM is harassing? Take units I am creeping with? You seem to forget that he has an army AND burrows to make it VERY HARD to crack his base. Even if he is teching, there's something called BURROWS which makes it attacking his base difficult. Ghouls will drop like flies to his burrows and he will get EXP for it. If he doesn't have any units, all the better, he doesn't have guys dying, so you don't get exp on your DK. The difference is simple: You attack his base, he has burrows that are shooting and repairing. So he has like several towers hitting your guys. When he attacks your base, he can stop your economy cold by hitting your acolytes. You only have a cold tower hitting him and maybe some ghouls to back you up. The difference is that he can cloak therefore bypassing your defenses and getting the acolytes. You seem to ignore the fact that Orc players have burrows.

    Getting a ghoul to scout is the same reason why Orc players don't send grunts to scout you. First of all, you won't get any useful information until you hit tier 2. Second of all, that ghoul could be helping you creep or chopping wood. Finally, even if you see him creeping with your scout, he can kill your ghoul with his BM rather easily since the BM runs faster or if he does WW. 120 gold wasted there sir.

    Hero harass is a viable tactic that provides a wealth of advantages. You calling it pussy is just being immature. If you harass, you get to see what he is making. Next, if you are lucky to get a peon, you can slow his economy somewhat. If he gets into burrows, you can slow his economy even more. Finally, if he brings his entire army to his base, you can easily run off therefore wasting his time. Harassing orc isn't as easy as the other races, but I like to hit a structure thats building, just to throw off his concentration from creeping. Of course I also try to stay away from the range of his burrows as well.

    I don't know how many times I have to say it, but losing an acolyte is FAR MORE PAINFUL than losing a peon. First of all, acolytes have no protection at all. They stand, vulnerable to anything to get their gold. When you attack peons, they can EASILY GET INTO BURROWS. Oh, and you managed to kill a peon? Well HE CAN EASILY MOVE A WOOD PEON TO THE GOLD MINE. You on the other hand have to make another acolyte, slowing your economy AND your tech.

    The situation gets worse, even when both of you tech. He kills your acolyte? You either live with a slower income OR you stop halls, therefore giving him a time advantage. You hit his peon? Like I said before, he will use EL BURROW. Oh, you got his peon? HE CAN MOVE A WOOD PEON TO GOLD.

    I don't know what game you play, but the last time I checked, burrows have 600 hp, do 25 damage a pop and did I mention orcs have many of them in their base? Oh, I guess I forgot to mention that THEY CAN BE REPAIRED.

    Okay, so you say dust counters BM, yet you tell me to rush his base. First of all, even if you rush his base, he still can RIP UP YOUR ACOLYTES. Second of all, you seem to forget a LITTLE THING CALLED BURROWS. Finally, an acolyte is worth more than a peon, since most UD players will only have 5 of them.

    Seriously, give me some replays of your supposed BM ownage and I'll give you my acceptance. You seem to forget that orc burrows are a much better defense than and ice tower, for many reasons. Next, even if I did follow what you said, he still wins since he gets my precious acolytes, while I lose many ghouls and give him exp, thanks to EL BURROW.

    Finally, human and elf players can deal with it much easily since you can REPLACE YOUR GOLD MINERS WITH YOUR WOOD CHOPPERS. This is a key difference that you should all know. Unless you play UD, you have no idea how much damage losing an acolyte really causes.
     
  16. ChrisH36

    ChrisH36 Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.

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    Brings me back to the old days in Reign of Chaos, where that item was a good war winner. But I have to disagree on your dryad hit point increase. They can take a deal of damage and aren't ever on the front lines (melee range). Getting away from them can be a pain in the ass, especially when you are rooted and taking the poison. I think the movement speed reduction should be reduced by 10%. Although kinda gay, you can root and surrond the hero instead of getting slown down and let t3 air or melee chase you and kill your hero.

    Besides, the only reason I see an hp increase is to prevent mortars from slaughtering your dryads with a few rockets. But even getting to them is easy, since they have 1100 range and you can get a few units around or fly over and kill them (300 isn't a whole lot of life you know).
     
  17. None293823

    None293823 Premium Member

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    I didnt use it before, i just saw how you do it but it is good vs sham pult grunt. I would go knights vs wolf riders though, 1 thing is certain- no rifle. I dont know how can mass casters own grunts and riders when they die from lightning and shockwave or critical.

    And some of my offers for 1.19 are so reasonable, like adding dust to Humans, Orc, Add an upgrade to increase hp of crypt fiends in tier 3 so as to counter air human ,

    -Nerf BM - Windwalk, increase DMG of chain lighting and shockwave sth like that.
    - Add dust of appearance in the Voodo lounge instead


    NEUTRAL:

    -Nerf DR with more mana req for Black Arrow or decrease the hp of skeletons (and duration )
    - Nerf FL by more mana req for lava spawns and lower duration. The Volcano should work even when the FL takes another action like 'Move' i.e. no buff or effect of hero like (Volcano Effect-caster).
    - Give Tinker the ability to attack air while in robogoblin form. (with no bonus dmg vs air)
    - Increase Panderen movement speed

    ITEMS:
    -Remove Dust of Appearance from the goblin merchant (as every race should have it close in the base)
    - Decrease the gold cost of boots
    - Add a dispel wand with 2 charges available only after ... at the time potion of invulnerability and scroll of healing is available
    - Make Book of Dead be dropped by stronger creeps - increase the lvl of the item from 4 to 5 or 6. Sometimes this item with or without FL or DR is the reason to win.


    CREEPS:
    -Decrease the creeps guarding the Goblin Obs on Twisted Meadows- remove priest or 2 troll trappers (lvl 3).


    which still doesnt make anything imba, that Blizzard should SEE and have them IN MIND.
     
  18. Emperor Pan I

    Emperor Pan I Respected Member

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    The dispel wand was removed to force players to rely on thier own racial anti-casters, instead of an item. I don't think it is coming back, especialy since the wand of Negotiation image is now being used by the Rod of Necromancy.
     
  19. QuikSilver

    QuikSilver Forum *********

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    lol yeah, once...some one got 2 books of gg(dead) from those 2 creeps while i was creeping the sides...he came to my base and totally crapped on me...
     
  20. UD_PLAYER

    UD_PLAYER Member!

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    Never said hero harass. Hero harass is for pussys that don't know shit about the game (unless agaisnt Ne, in which case it is almost mandatory). You rush. grow some balls, suck up the loss of an acolyte, grab a rod, dust and a bunch of ghouls and attack. If he tech, what the hell can he do to you? Worst he cna do is kill a few acolytes, you kill his burrow, acolytes mean shit compared to losing a burrow.



    Hero harass is a viable tactic that provides a wealth of advantages. You calling it pussy is just being immature. If you harass, you get to see what he is making. Next, if you are lucky to get a peon, you can slow his economy somewhat. If he gets into burrows, you can slow his economy even more. Finally, if he brings his entire army to his base, you can easily run off therefore wasting his time. Harassing orc isn't as easy as the other races, but I like to hit a structure thats building, just to throw off his concentration from creeping. Of course I also try to stay away from the range of his burrows as well.





    I agree with revelade here. Pan all u do is keep telling us how to counter bm. SOMETIMES U JUST CANT. Especially while teching, so u wont be able to replace ur acolytes which means an astounding hurt for ud economy. U ARENT READING WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE SAYING. All u do is hold on to ur point of view and refuse to even consider to what other ppl want to tell you.

    As for ue saying that hero harass is for pussies... GROW UP ALREADY, i have seen BEST UD players and other players use hero harass against equal opponents successfully. I WONT ARGUE WITH U ANYMORE CAUSE U WILL JUST KEEP SAYING THE SAME THING AFTER AND AFTER. ur like a broken record. dont bother to respond to this cause im certainly not going to bother to read what u have to say. bm is imba. period.

    BF WC 3 Tourny #3 - Winner.. I dont give a ****. u think u know it all but u dont gl 2 u. When did u win it by the way ? 1970s ?
     
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