Imbalances in 1.18

Discussion in 'Warcraft III' started by Revelade, Aug 30, 2005.

?

"Many cookie-cutter heros (i.e. BM, DH, DK) should be nerfed

  1. Yes, this game is imbalanced.

    3 vote(s)
    23.1%
  2. No, the game is balanced.

    9 vote(s)
    69.2%
  3. Haven't Decided, what's nerfing? :(

    1 vote(s)
    7.7%
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  1. Revelade

    Revelade BattleForums Member

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    Before you read this, keep in mind that a forumer named xE.Dragon wrote this, NOT ME. So without further or do... enjoy.

    I agree with many of his points. Frankly, roys raiders and fs wolves need nerfage. Units like steam tanks, dragonhawks, and some heroes like Tinkers need boost. I'd like blademaster to get his WW really. It seems 3/4 of the time I vs orc, it's always BM harass, which means I keep my hero in base, or prepare to lose acolytes and slow my tech down.
     
  2. Kaison

    Kaison BattleForums Addict

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    I agree too
     
  3. Ntrik_

    Ntrik_ Premium Member

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    Why don't we justchange the whole game at this rate? Seriously, I agree that there are inbalances in the game, but we cant just keep on going and cry out like that, use dust of appearance if theres BM WWing and harassing you, tower up with cold and spirit tower.
     
  4. ChrisH36

    ChrisH36 Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.

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    I cried when I read this part. HASNT ANYONE READ MY SUPER COOL AWESOME PIT LORD GUIDE. You can tell that this guy hasn't won very many games. I can counter mostly any hero and even use the ineffective ones to thier fullest effect.

    My god, simply just howl when many enemy units are around you and use cleaving attack to pick off units. The splash will help other units kill the units around the inital target. Just don't let the Pit Lord get hit by speed modifiers, one of the strength heroes bad weaknesses.

    As Mike said, no point of crying like a little wuss just because you get your butt pwned by archmages and mountian kings. Every hero has a weakness, just exploit it before the enemy does it to you.
     
  5. Revelade

    Revelade BattleForums Member

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    First of all, the folks at Blizzard ASKED the community what they thought needed to be fixed. So it's not them whining, more like them inputting.

    Second of all, if you are going to use dust, that means you keep your hero at base. You have the disadvantage since you are contained, so he has map control. Also, since he is around your base, he can scout to see what you are making and counter.

    Towering up can work, but it makes teching much slower. Undead tier 2 is weak, so tier 3 is a must.

    Second, what you say forces me to get a graveyard even if I don't go fiends. I do my BO so I make my graveyard last, so it would only work with fiends.

    Third, WW gives a bonus 40 damage, and an acolyte only has 220 hp. Say you are in the middle of creeping. Honestly, how fast can you react to get to your base in time? He's probably going to get off a couple shots on your acolyte. One more WW and that's one acolyte dead.

    I find it funny how just because of one heros spell, Blizzard forced dust into a tier 1 item at the item shop.

    I'm not asking to remove it, but there has to be a nerf, which many people on the other forums agree. Blizz has already nerfed it a small bit in the westfall server anyway...
     
  6. UD_PLAYER

    UD_PLAYER Member!

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    On the single hero everyone hates

    I KNOW I WROTE A LOT... PLEASE READ IF YOU ARE A SERIOUS GAMER. I NEED TO KNOW IF ANYONE AGREES WITH ME



    Allrighty... ive read the list and i agree with most of the points. however i would like to ask if whoever wrote this is by any chance an orc player (im not good with names). A lot of stuff on the "poor" orc in this article.... but the major issue is not addressed: The blademaster. Admit it.. if you dont play orc, you hate that hero. How can blizzard make one single unit so immensly powerful ? Dont call me noob because through months of playing i have been trying to defedn agaisnt this hero and gotten much better but not good enough. The blademaster is overpowered... period. Critical strike and windwalk is a 'no-no' for any hero if you wish to keep the game balanced. To those people who tell me to tower up and sit in my base just so i can protect my acolytes from the blademaster i say this: you have either never tried playing undead.. or you just dont understand the game. Yes... towering helps but it does not STOP the harras like everyone is suggesting. Remember that once acolytes die they must be replaced which means i have to either stop teching or delay my teching. This is ridiculous.. i have seen the replays of major orc players on echo isles jsut go straight to the enemy fountain of health and kill the dark wizzard.

    At this point it is ahrd to explain the frustration one feels when under sort of harras. It has to end and it has to end now. Fixing the undead goldmine so the acolytes would be inside sounds ok... but it might not be fair to other races. What i suggest is the complete revisement/removal of windwalk. Why ? because night elf wisps, undead acolytes, in some cases human peasants, and even other orc peons can be killed with this strategy.

    If someone is about to harass me while im creeping and possibly far away from my base i would like to ask for more than 1-3 seconds to fight it. This makes the blademaster EXTREMELY HARD TO KILL even with nuke. If you people from blizzard dont take my advice at least do this: DISABLE the ability of blademaster to walk TROUGH UNITS when in windwalk. This will allow at least some defense against this head-ache strategy. I mean cmon the blademaster is described as a 'hero adept at killing individual units rapidly". Unfair... Period. Since this major point was not adressed in the article while some significantly smaller issues were adfressed im asumming the writer is an orcp layer.. sorry if im wrong maybe he just left it out.






    ANother issue that is a plague for TFT: ORC AND HUMAN TOWERS.

    These towers are constructed too fast and are way to cheap in terms of resources. End of case. Human expansions are made pretty much invulnerable by mass towers used by the most experienced players... even with siege if your enemy is defending the expansion with units. I do not know how but i sincerely hope blizzard can fix this problem.


    Sincerely Yours Undead_Player
     
  7. ChrisH36

    ChrisH36 Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.

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    Bring mortars and dont send light and unarmored units into tower, god you people think that massing anything is a loss. If that is the case, then stop giving up and play the game like a man.

    Also set up scouts nearby in case they try to counter you from behind, you can run for it with minimal casualties.
     
  8. Emperor Pan I

    Emperor Pan I Respected Member

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    hate to tell you, but human and orc towers ahve HEAVY ARMOR. Siege does shit damage to them, and is a laughable counter at best.
     
  9. ChrisH36

    ChrisH36 Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.

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    Some people are taking this post as off-topic. You can disagree with balance, but we cannot discuss strategies in a argument of balance thread.
     
  10. Ntrik_

    Ntrik_ Premium Member

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    I seriously dont think it needs nerfing, it seem fine as of now, thats what they're for initially, harassing.

    And if you're going to nerf WW, I think frost nova and Death coil needs nerfing as well.
     
  11. Emperor Pan I

    Emperor Pan I Respected Member

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    and by nerfing those, you completely remove UNdead in the competative game. good job.
     
  12. Ntrik_

    Ntrik_ Premium Member

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    nerf mana burn and WW and you dont have orc and NE.
     
  13. Emperor Pan I

    Emperor Pan I Respected Member

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    WW? Are you joking? BM is the worst hero. I can't beleive anyone bitch about him. Terrible. and the Night elves don't need Mana burn to keep competeative like UD needs coil.
     
  14. QuikSilver

    QuikSilver Forum *********

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    Here is the new rule...People should only complain how STRONG(imbalanced) their team is...Lets see what people think about their teams.
    Yeah i thought so....The Sound of Silence.... :-/
     
  15. Emperor Pan I

    Emperor Pan I Respected Member

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    becasue the game is balanced
     
  16. UD_PLAYER

    UD_PLAYER Member!

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    .....

    So no one has any thoughts on my post about human/orc towers and blademaster?
     
  17. Ntrik_

    Ntrik_ Premium Member

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    Then we would have to have entangled gold mine for every single races because BM can easily harass humans, NE and other orcs just like they can to UD.

    Sure I hate BM, but do I think it needs nerfing? No, every races have certain advantages, use them.

    And towers.... heavy armors... not hard to destroy with good army of units.

    I actually thought strongest towers were UD ones, siege armor, same attacks, moderately fast speed = :(


    And for sake of the discussion, Ill bring up archers and say buff them because they die to spells one hit like weak craps.
     
  18. UD_PLAYER

    UD_PLAYER Member!

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    Thats not what i suggested at all. I merely said that bm's windwalk should be seriously reconsidered, that hero is used by most orc players. IN addition to that a bm cannot be surrounded by ghouls... because it can just walk trough units.

    On the point that a good army can surpass those towers.. Not necassarily true... Remember that your opponent wont wait until his towers die, he has an army and that army combined with towers will be enough to wipe you out.
    Offensive towering is another issue, i have recently noticed in my own experience and and replays from the various proffesional players use towers on the offensive.. why ? its cheap and its fast thata why.


    On your point that ud towers are best: yes they are, but you have to remember that they cost 150 gold and 50 lumber FOR ZIGGURAT. And then u have to upgrade that zig into tower.. it takes way too long and you rarely see undead towering on the offensive if ever. No strategy game should be as simple as towering your opponent in his base.

    On the archer point of view: they are made very quickly and cost little gold. Besides now with the archer hp increased lvl 3 coil can no longer kill them if thats what you meant.

    on the fact that you said 'all goldmines could be entangled'. IF u look at my post you will see that it would be ok, but thats unfair to otehr races.. which is why i suggested nerfing BM's windwalk. Cheapest hero ever made.

    I REFUSE TO BE UPSET ABOUT A GAME THIS GREAT OVER RETARTED HERO LIKE BM.. Watch this replay you will see why i am upset... i dont know if i counterd bm or not here so dont call me noob. watch and enjoy orc cheapness
     
  19. Revelade

    Revelade BattleForums Member

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    I apologize if I replied late, but I have to agree with Undead Player. Maybe it's because I'm an undead player as well, but the BM just seems to be TOO good at harassing.

    I'm sure night elf, human players can also agree with me.

    WW is just too great. First of all, it can be used offensively by scouting the enemy. You can see a great deal of information and this comes at the beginning of the game! You can see what item he carries, what units he is building and counter.

    Second of all, if you find him creeping, you can punish him a great deal. OR if he has creeped, you can finish off lowhp units that he is carrying with him. This alone is just too powerful.

    Third of all, he does bonus damage, BUT he is already a high dps hero, if not the most damaging hero. This means, even though WW bonus is weak, his already great stats let him finish off units swiftly, especially with Critical Strike.

    Fourth of all, WW is great for escaping. Even if you get him to 10hp, with ww, you can easily escape the situation.

    Fifth of all, you force the opponent to change their strategy JUST for one hero. I mean like you people say "tower up". It's funny how one hero can do this. Not only that, but you force people to buy dust of appearance, wasting gold and time.

    Sixth of all, this results in slowing or containing the enemy. Say someone tries to tech, well, if his hero isn't at the base, a WWing blademaster could rip up workers.

    All these advantages AND more are contained in a spell that arrives at level 1. Really, it's not one of these features that makes it so powerful, but rather the combination of them all. The BM was already great without the WW boost, since CS is just an amazing passive, especially coupled with lightning orb. So yes, Blizz did the right thing by nerfing the BM, and I hope they continue to do so.

    Let me ask you Mike, are you an orc player?
     
  20. None293823

    None293823 Premium Member

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    Archmage – Water Elemental and Brilliance Aura – infinite mana is just too powerful

    comment sux, this is the point of AM, i have played for fun without him and casters with no mana.... this is Human power afterall damn. Suxxx a lot.

    far seer is ok even though feral spirits are annoying- this is FS k ?

    I wouldnt mind UD nerf but there is nothing SO wrong for DK now.

    DR : Mass skellies before u have dispel is imba enough thx.

    Skills: some skills are more useful that others and the strat is to choose the better ones. Sometimes you RETRAIN and make both useful e.g. elementals and later Blizzard

    Im not going to read more cuz it sucks A LOT. Indeed, why dont we change the whole game ? New races,

    OMG changes to every unit and map hahaha

    Yeah make Nuclear missile ability to Tinker, no air attack... pfff


    To summarize, there are some imba things but this is pathetic - every unit and brilliance ??? There is already dmg cap to blizzard and AM is for the mana. BM sucks cuz he cant give mana to casters. I say 'more skill' then say something is imba.
     
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