human vs undead counter

Discussion in 'Warcraft Strategy Guides' started by a-day-to-bleed, May 27, 2003.

  1. a-day-to-bleed

    a-day-to-bleed Member!

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    YO sup i was wondering some good ways to counter an undead player in 1v1. 99% of the time the ud player goes mass gouls with dk and dl auras then later game come in with necros. i was wondering a good counter strat against it cuz it would help a lot. THANKS
     
  2. RageWinterchill

    RageWinterchill Member!

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    HMC/MK/AM should do sufficiently. If they go Ghouls only, they are making a serious mistake, as Ghouls won't do if you can drag it out to when you have a sufficient number of casters. Slow will set them up for the terrifying Blizzard/Clap anti-unit nuke, and I guarantee that the Undead player will not enjoy being hit by that. Try to knock out the DK early on if you can, as he is more or less the backbone of the UD army.

    Necromancers will not be a problem if you have HMC. Priests will make short work of Skellies, no matter how many they raise. Dispel them fast, however, because if you use autocast Slow, the Sorcs will begin to target the Skellies. Not good.

    You won't have much to worry about in the way of hero nukes if they get dual auras. UD's best hero nukes involve Frost Nova, though Coil will make short work of an AM. However, they might go for Sleep. Beware of a Sleep Surround to knock your MK out of the battle early, or Sleep Abuse to keep him out of combat. Either one is dangerous, and neither one is preferable. Try to keep them from getting away with either.

    You really don't have much to worry about until they get Banshees, if you want my opinion. When they get Ghouls/Banshees, then you might have some troubles. From there, you'll just have to grit your teeth and duke it out with the Undead guy by repeatedly Dispelling AMS, and maybe Curse.
     
  3. Biske

    Biske BattleForums Senior Member

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    Yeah, if they go mass ghouls, they're gunna get slapped quick by a good human player. MK is the best to use, followed by the AM, and then get the P for hero(UD) sniping and healing.
     
  4. a-day-to-bleed

    a-day-to-bleed Member!

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    aight thanks winterchill, ur advise helped. i never got mk while playing against undead maybe thats a problem. would it be smart to go footies and casters? i mean it would seem kinda necessary for some melee againts those goules cuz if they get wand of negation im literally ****ed. cuz bye bye mana and bye bye casters. i think it would make it more eficient to go at least 4-5 foots for inner fire with armor upgrades cuz they would last hella good againts goules.....what do u think??
     
  5. Biske

    Biske BattleForums Senior Member

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    Basicly you want Footies, Knights, Gryphons, your MK, Preists, Riflemen, and a couple siege units for a good balanceed army...but that's toward the end...now, I wouldn't go just a few Footies and Casters agienst a UD conflict, you'll get slaughtered. Put some Riflemen in the mix, add some more Footies and you got a good anti-Ghoul brigade for the early game, then throw in a couple of Gyros to make the battle yours, that'd be about mid game.
     
  6. RageWinterchill

    RageWinterchill Member!

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    Glad to see my tips helped! Always a pleasure to help another player, even if I am an Undead player... :(

    Footies/HMC does work, for the most part. Be careful, however. Footies kill Ghouls early on, but Crack Ghouls will easily tear through Footies. The backbone of the Human offensive line is the MK. Most Human players do this, and the UD players know this too, which is why you'll need to keep the MK safe. They will do everything in their power to keep him inactive, whether by death or simple Sleep Abuse.

    Later on, Footies still work. But changing to Gryphs for higher damage output might be a better choice. You might be sacrificing a melee line, but the way the Ghouls drop will be a good idea. Take care to keep prying eyes (namely Shades) out of your base when planning this surprise or you just might end up with a nasty surprise of your own, mostly in the form of Gargoyles.

    In the vs UD conflicts, go MK first. AM first, in my experiences from both sides of the playing field, is suicide. UD hero sniping is too good, and having a lower level MK is of no help against the Undead. A level 3 MK, UD will kill off with little to no hesitation, because he's not too much of a threat. A level 5 MK, then you have something they might think twice about fighting.

    Other things you should take into consideration is the UD Triple Hero. Arguably the game's deadliest hero combination, their abilities at hero sniping are the most powerful in the game. A skilled UD player going Triple Hero against a skilled Human player going double hero will end up with hero levels of equal or better levels in favor of the Undead. It usually ends up level 3 DK, level 2 DL, and level 1 Lich (combined hero level of 6) vs level 3 MK and level 2 AM/Pally (whichever the Human chooses) for a combined hero level of 5. Not good. In addition, they can make quick work of the casters with Nova/Carrion. So watch for this.

    Don't let him have his way with you in the early game. This is an excellent UD counter against HMC: keeping their numbers small. Crack Ghouls don't need Banshees or WoNs if there are only a few casters, like 4 Sorcs, 4 Priests. Some Human players skip the Barracks entirely in favor of upgrading to Keep earlier to get their casters out faster.

    DON'T SKIP THE BARRACKS!!!

    That is the biggest risk you could possibly take, and possibly the most fatal. If he finds you, you are in a world of hurt, and a lot of frustration. Don't talk about Militia. Militia will handle the Ghouls IF THEY STAND AND FIGHT. They won't. They want you to get Militia. A harassment on your base is them DARING you to get Militia, so you can hurt your own economy, while they run off and go do whatever it is they're gonna do. Meanwhile, you're in the middle of getting your economy back into gear while theirs has been running the entire time. And then they come back for another unexpected visit, maybe even blocking off the Town Hall to slaughter your Peasants as they come. I've done that a few times and, when pulled off, is usually end game.

    Often, this will mean Crack Ghouls even earlier than you are ready for, and Crack Ghouls with 3/1 upgrades can take on a lot of Militia, especially with hero back up, namely the DK and the Lich.

    DON'T SKIP THE BARRACKS!!!

    The Footmen may slow you down, but it will guarantee you a measure of safety. Building 1-2 Guard Towers could help as well, but no more. Most UD players get discouraged when they see those Towers. I know I do. Who likes losing Ghouls in a failed harassment anyway?

    If Abomshee comes into play, now there's trouble. Footies/HMC with MK/AM might be able to take on Ghouls/Banshees by eliminating the Ghouls during the AMS recast periods, but they have more difficulty against Abomshee. Despite Piercing vs Heavy bonuses, Aboms are far more resilient than their smaller, faster attacking counterparts, and Aboms, unless grossly outnumbered, can handle Footies easily. And tear through casters with equal, if not better, efficiency. Poly is the primary Human answer to tier 3 units, and AMS and WoNs will remove that. In addition, Aboms are less vulnerable during the AMS recast period, as they have more HP and are resistant to Clap and Blizzard, the primary counters against Ghouls. Not good. Going Knights to counter this is suicide. At worst, you are adding extra, unneeded units to the UD army through Possession so they can rip you a new one even easier. No need to worry. Gryphons will handle this. You just need to stay one step ahead of the Undead. Which is a bit difficult, since most times the UD is one step ahead of you. Don't worry about what I say. It's winnable.

    Important note: Healing Scrolls. If the UD player decides he's gonna take the pressure to you with melee units, or AoE spells, you need to mass heal your damage. Priest Heal won't do it fast enough. Try healing 150 on all friendly units instantly with a Healing Scroll. At the least, take them to deny your enemy these same advantages. Ghouls can be powerful against HMC, but only if they have Scrolls and WoNs. WoNs, you are mostly helpless against. Scrolls, you can do something about by denying them. Buy a Scroll of Protection as well to make it tougher for the UD to kill your casters. Unlike you, he does not have a mass dispel unless he uses precious WoN charges to weaken you. And casters greatly benefit from the armor bonus, seeing as how they start with 0 armor.
     
  7. x42bn6

    x42bn6 Retired Staff

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    Do your fingers now hurt, Rage? :D

    Another thing is to use Knights, 'cos little Foots will say hello to Frenzied Ghouls and start running everywhere for cover.
     
  8. Samsara

    Samsara Member!

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    another tip never go air against UD ITS FRIGGIN SUICIDE. a gryphon takes a couple of hits from a garg and then hes dead. plus fiends can web so in my opinion just go knight, priest, and maybe some riflemen in the fray
     
  9. Biske

    Biske BattleForums Senior Member

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    Don't forget a Mortor or two in the back. A nice mix of splash dmg will change those Ghouls into mush in no time.
     
  10. RageWinterchill

    RageWinterchill Member!

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    Actually, at that time... Yeah. :(
     
  11. x42bn6

    x42bn6 Retired Staff

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    3/3 Gryphs do well against Gargs, unless the Gargs are 3/3 as well.

    I suggest you run!
     
  12. RageWinterchill

    RageWinterchill Member!

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    Air is not always suicide against UD. In small numbers, Gargs will destroy Gryphs. But in higher numbers, Gryphs can take a good fight to Gargs, sometimes even outright destroying them. In equal numbers, Gryphs slaughter Gargs. The UD player has to be careful too if the Human decides to take the battle to the skies.
     
  13. Biske

    Biske BattleForums Senior Member

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    Hell, if that happened, I'd be dead.
     
  14. x42bn6

    x42bn6 Retired Staff

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    But if someone went mass Gryphs, it means that there won't be too much upkeep remaining for melee. Ghouls will do that.
     
  15. Warg

    Warg Member!

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    If your humans get gryphs and ull own him
     
  16. RageWinterchill

    RageWinterchill Member!

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    A LOT of Gryphons. A LOT of Gryphons fast, or you die while the UD player laughs his ass off.
     
  17. x42bn6

    x42bn6 Retired Staff

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    And a lot of Gryphs means that even they'll have problems. You'll suffer in the upkeep department.
     
  18. RageWinterchill

    RageWinterchill Member!

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    I played several 1v1s against my friend yesterday, him always being Human and me always Undead. I won every single game against him. The first game I rushed him with Lich/Ghouls, which worked, but that's not the point. Every game after, I decided to test out how the game would go if I actually allowed him to get lots of Gryphons. Each and every single game, I slaughtered his Gryphs. UF'd Fiends were just too much for them, but I noticed several things my friend didn't do that could quite possibly have tipped the scales in his favor...

    1) Focus fire. As strong as Gryphons are, you wanna bring down the enemy's AA FAST. Focus fire each of them to death.
    2) Caster backup. Even if you have a lotta Gryphs, having at least a few Priests tagging along can't hurt at all.
    3) Heroes. Use your heroes to disable your enemy's more dangerous heroes. In his case against me, it would have been either my Lich or my DK, as my Lich was slowing down his Gryphs with Nova and my DK was keeping the Fiends and Lich alive.
     
  19. x42bn6

    x42bn6 Retired Staff

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    I don't think you need much to realise Ghouls and Fiends will tear down air. Gargs too.

    Inner Fire too is a 'must' in my opinion. But Priests are weak, so watch out for them.
     
  20. homestar333

    homestar333 Member!

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    well im a mainly undead player and so if the Gargs get level 3 attk and arm. there very powerful in groups of five or 6