HU vs. NE Footies/Hawks

Revelade

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I'm trying out humans right now and they play similar to UD, except that they have a stronger tier 2 with lots of more options.

BUILD ORDER:


Send all 5 peons to gold and make I think about 6 more for wood. Build altar, 2 barracks and a blacksmith, in addition to shop and farms.

Upgrade the armor and especially the melee damage because it will help hawks later on.

Get to tier 2 and drop 2 aviaries. From there, crank out hawks.

If needed, get to tier 3 and get gryphons.


SKILL ORDER:


I wouldn't get mage because you aren't going to be using casters. Bloodmage's AoE can hurt footies as well. The MK sounds okay because you can stun surround, and also the Pally's aura will be helpful since you will have lots of units.

Just get a hero that is hard to kill.


ANALYSIS:


FOOTMEN:

They are here primarily for defend. This will cause them to live 70% longer and do bonus against archers. Dryads also do piercing, so footies can get hard to kill. They are easy to make and mass. Remember to only defend the footmen they are FF on. They do have one major weakness...

DRAGONHAWKS:

If your opponent is smart, they will switch to hunts as soon as they see your footie army. Dragonhawks are the only air to ground unit the humans have at tier 2, move fast and are actually cheaper to build than riflemen, though they do slightly less damage.



SUMMARY:


Mass footies to counter archers/dryads.
Mass dragonhawks to counter huntresses, any air units and to avoid any damage from bears.


EXECUTION:


TIER 1:

Get your hero and start creeping with lots of footmen. Try to fight against packs of ranged creeps, killing melee units before ranged ones. When you are about to hit tier 2, give them a glance at your mass footmen and trick them into massing hunts.

TIER 2:


At tier 2, this is where you want to hit. Chances are, he will have many hunts, which die very quickly to mass hawks.

Have the hawks come in first to scare the hunts, then bring footies to defend against archers or dryads.

When they bring hunts back in, focus fire on hunts.

If they get bears, it will be easy to get gryphons because they use aviaries, you already have and they share the attack upgrade with footmen/hawks.


BOTTOM LINE:


The gist of the strategy is tricking the NE player to going mass hunts and countering them hard with mass hawks. After they get hawk counters, footies defend will counter them yet again. They share similar upgrades, are cheap to build and are easy to control. Just keep your hero alive.

Against ranged units, defend counters them hard with 70% reduction. Against melee units, dragonhawks can't even be hit!
 

aphextwin

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i would go flying machines instead of hawks...
 

Ntrik_

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aphextwin said:
i would go flying machines instead of hawks...
and get owned by archers?

How about mortars to rape those hunts xD
 

Revelade

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Flying machines die so fast it's not even funny. They are a last resort weapon at antiair. Also, they only can attack ground at tier 3, meaning they are useless at tier 2, when most NE players won't go hipporiders anyway.

Mortars have the same bonus damage as hunts as Hawks. Mortar teams however are ground based, die fast and cost a hefty amount of wood compared to Hawks. Hawks have manuevarability and most importantly, FORCE NE to get anti air.

If you have a good amount of hawks, you can shackle every hippo. If they bring in archers or dryads, footmen will do wonders with 70% hp increase defend.
 

Zerglite

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or NE could simply go bears + archers and you lose anyway
 

aphextwin

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N_LeGenD) said:
and get owned by archers?

How about mortars to rape those hunts xD
either ways would get owned by archers... but i would rather save more gold getting flyingmachines than hawks

but w/e i still wouldnt go air against ne

-edit-

plus dragon hawk takes extra dmg from archers too....
 

Ntrik_

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aphextwin said:
either ways would get owned by archers... but i would rather save more gold getting flyingmachines than hawks

but w/e i still wouldnt go air against ne

-edit-

plus dragon hawk takes extra dmg from archers too....
yea all airs are weak against archers...

I dont know, just go with typical rifle man combo and GG?
 

ChrisH36

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aphextwin said:
i would go flying machines instead of hawks...
Then you would be ****ed unless you had 60+ and used the bee swarm method.

either ways would get owned by archers
why do you think he said FOOTS and hawks?
 

Ntrik_

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Hellwolf_36 said:
Then you would be ****ed unless you had 60+ and used the bee swarm method.



why do you think he said FOOTS and hawks?
And why would hunts be there for then silly? :p and DH, or Warden, FoK > footies or air

Plus you dont need to pump out archers right in the beginning, just when you see or know that hes going for air (i.e. you see the building that makes air or w/e while harassing), archer costs less, and comes out much faster than dhawk mind you..
 

ChrisH36

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then the hawks will ff and do some REAL damage to the hunts.

But yes, the warden and demon hunter are negative factors to worry about when you employ this tactic.
 

Ntrik_

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Hellwolf_36 said:
then the hawks will ff and do some REAL damage to the hunts.

But yes, the warden and demon hunter are negative factors to worry about when you employ this tactic.
You're correct, but footies with defend on wont do good against moving targets like hunts and archers, and will be even more vulnerable to spells like Entangle and FoK because they wont be able to run away as fast.
 

ChrisH36

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Defend is to be used to push on archers. When they run, you have to turn it off. Unless you armor up your foots, you are gonna lose your ground fast. Also, if you try to do AoEs: the entire T1 NE can outrun the AOE (except archers not as fast).

So really this tactic is useful on how well you attack the ne and bust them up when you come with the hawks. If you don't, as with Ntrik_'s idea: You will get trashed.
 

Ntrik_

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if I havent mentioned it earlier, I still think Rifleman will do better, or mix of rifle man in there would be better.
 

ChrisH36

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Considering Rifleman pwn hunts and can stand up better than archers can when struck with piercing.

On another note, welcome back big ass two sided arguments over a strategy between me and mike :p.
 

ChrisH36

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Ok.... then if you are detected, then its all for nothing.

If you wanted to rush in like that, you would use towers.
 

Revelade

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Harris.On.Rento said:
destroy your own town hall and build 3 town halls near enemy base and start massing peasants and militia can be used near.
Except you'll have to make them into Keeps before you can make militias.

The reason hawks are used is plenty. First of all, they have mobility, which is needed against elf. Second of all, they SHARE the same attack upgrade with footmen. Third of all, huntresses can NOT hit them at all. Finally, because of their mobility, they can easily FF on a single hunt. Because of these traits, they are a huge counter to hunts at tier 2.
 

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Revelade said:
I'm trying out humans right now and they play similar to UD, except that they have a stronger tier 2 with lots of more options.

BUILD ORDER:


Send all 5 peons to gold and make I think about 6 more for wood. Build altar, 2 barracks and a blacksmith, in addition to shop and farms.

Upgrade the armor and especially the melee damage because it will help hawks later on.

Get to tier 2 and drop 2 aviaries. From there, crank out hawks.

If needed, get to tier 3 and get gryphons.


SKILL ORDER:


I wouldn't get mage because you aren't going to be using casters. Bloodmage's AoE can hurt footies as well. The MK sounds okay because you can stun surround, and also the Pally's aura will be helpful since you will have lots of units.

Just get a hero that is hard to kill.


ANALYSIS:


FOOTMEN:

They are here primarily for defend. This will cause them to live 70% longer and do bonus against archers. Dryads also do piercing, so footies can get hard to kill. They are easy to make and mass. Remember to only defend the footmen they are FF on. They do have one major weakness...

DRAGONHAWKS:

If your opponent is smart, they will switch to hunts as soon as they see your footie army. Dragonhawks are the only air to ground unit the humans have at tier 2, move fast and are actually cheaper to build than riflemen, though they do slightly less damage.



SUMMARY:


Mass footies to counter archers/dryads.
Mass dragonhawks to counter huntresses, any air units and to avoid any damage from bears.


EXECUTION:


TIER 1:

Get your hero and start creeping with lots of footmen. Try to fight against packs of ranged creeps, killing melee units before ranged ones. When you are about to hit tier 2, give them a glance at your mass footmen and trick them into massing hunts.

TIER 2:


At tier 2, this is where you want to hit. Chances are, he will have many hunts, which die very quickly to mass hawks.

Have the hawks come in first to scare the hunts, then bring footies to defend against archers or dryads.

When they bring hunts back in, focus fire on hunts.

If they get bears, it will be easy to get gryphons because they use aviaries, you already have and they share the attack upgrade with footmen/hawks.


BOTTOM LINE:


The gist of the strategy is tricking the NE player to going mass hunts and countering them hard with mass hawks. After they get hawk counters, footies defend will counter them yet again. They share similar upgrades, are cheap to build and are easy to control. Just keep your hero alive.

Against ranged units, defend counters them hard with 70% reduction. Against melee units, dragonhawks can't even be hit!

U wanna go against the elves with air man?
what is that? this is wrong, because no one will mass hunt against u, they are weak.
Those archers are lethal against air and are cheap and fast building time. Why use hawk, rifle would have the same effect.
 

ChrisH36

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Thats because most people see past deception and will counter more effectively.

I tried this strategy against a group of UDs and it seemed to work.
 

Ntrik_

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TheoStormhawk said:
U wanna go against the elves with air man?
what is that? this is wrong, because no one will mass hunt against u, they are weak.
Those archers are lethal against air and are cheap and fast building time. Why use hawk, rifle would have the same effect.
Im sure they'll think otherwise in tier 1
 
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