Homosexuality

[Tipsy]

If god wanted men to love women, then there would be no homosexuals.

Are you implying that whatever is happening on earth God wants? The world is full of sin, that doesn't mean God supports it. God doesn't want people to murder, but there are still murderers. God doesn't want people to steal, yet there are still thieves, what makes homosexuality any different? Why would God allow us his promise of us having free will in every other situation but homosexuality?

In fact in my religion there are no laws against same-sex relationships; in fact it speaks positively about it.

So my religion allows marriage. In fact it has been doing so before your cult was even started, Tipsy.

Mostly I'm going to be dipped in **** before I allow somebody else's god to tell me who can and can't be my family.

Who cares what your religion teaches? Who cares what my religion teaches? Both of our governments are [at least considered to be] secular. My religion and your religion should not be effecting any major policy. Civil marriage is a secular institution. There is absolutely no room for any religion when arguing if same sex marriage should exist.

 

[BAZ]

its funny how the thread "homesexuality" has more pages of posts than any other thread i see in the arcane sanctuary lol

 

[Deanoz]

God does not matter at all in this country in terms of the rights people have or how they are required to live. He should be similar to something as insignificant as a pebble. Freedom reigns in America, not living christian.

 

[JesusTapdancngChrist]

Are you implying that whatever is happening on earth God wants? The world is full of sin, that doesn't mean God supports it. God doesn't want people to murder, but there are still murderers. God doesn't want people to steal, yet there are still thieves, what makes homosexuality any different? Why would God allow us his promise of us having free will in every other situation but homosexuality?


Who cares what your religion teaches? Who cares what my religion teaches? Both of our governments are [at least considered to be] secular. My religion and your religion should not be effecting any major policy. Civil marriage is a secular institution. There is absolutely no room for any religion when arguing if same sex marriage should exist.

God gave man the opportunity. When Adam and Eve took that apple thing, that's where original sin comes in. But I don't want to restudy all this Sunday school stuff.

God does not matter at all in this country in terms of the rights people have or how they are required to live. He should be similar to something as insignificant as a pebble. Freedom reigns in America, not living christian.

Errr, you're wrong? There have been politicians since the start making laws based off of religious conviction. For instance, the anti-gay marriage people constantly use God as their stance. God didn't want this, God didn't want that. And the president is buying it. So is most of Congress, which is mainly controlled by the republicans currently.

 

[Deanoz]

Errr, you're wrong? There have been politicians since the start making laws based off of religious conviction. For instance, the anti-gay marriage people constantly use God as their stance. God didn't want this, God didn't want that. And the president is buying it. So is most of Congress, which is mainly controlled by the republicans currently.

To be rather bold, thats because the general public is ignorant and stupid, and so are the politicians that may or may not become elected fairly by this population that I described. Then present to us ridiculous policies, and everything america was founded on, ends up flipping right on its ass.

 

[JesusTapdancngChrist]

That's because the representatives of the rich white man have control over Congress. That's why Bush is allowed to pass such ridiculous laws.

And now, the rich white man doesn't want "them fags marryin' eachother".

 

[Deanoz]

That's because the representatives of the rich white man have control over Congress. That's why Bush is allowed to pass such ridiculous laws.

And now, the rich white man doesn't want "them fags marryin' eachother".

Which is why we should overthrow a government when it has become corrupt, as the concept has been stated in the declaration of independence.. which we as a whole have failed to do.

 

[Knox]

Which is why we should overthrow a government when it has become corrupt, as the concept has been stated in the declaration of independence.. which we as a whole have failed to do.

Throw over the goverment because gays cant get married? A bit extreme, no?

 

[Laharl]

The only problem, Tipsy, is that people are pushing forward your religion's morals. I have a problem with that, seeing how religion and government do not mix, nor is it in the best interests to try.

And yes, overthrow the government for corruption. That's all you really can do. That's all an election is for.

 

[B)ushid(o]

Religion and government are nearly inseperable.

1. Personal beliefs and convictions drive people, therefore, many politicians, no matter how hard they try to leave their personal beliefs out, will, in the end, be driven by them.

2. Because government officials are public servants, their duty is to serve the public. Beliefs drawn from religion will invariably seep through and become an issue.

 

[Deanoz]

The government is supposed to uphold the ideals america was founded on. If someone wishes to change that, we the people shall revolt.
If not, then when the country loses these ideals, it dies from the inside out.

 

[Tipsy]

The only problem, Tipsy, is that people are pushing forward your religion's morals. I have a problem with that, seeing how religion and government do not mix, nor is it in the best interests to try.

People may be doing it for religious reasons, but I believe it helps the country regardless the reasoning. To go with a common example, my religion teaches murder is wrong and a large group of people probably accept it as wrong because of that, though it still does benefit the country in secular matters. In the same way, people may be against it for religious reasons, but anything to help my country's grand defecit from getting larger and larger by removing an institution that really doesn't help all that much, if at all, then I say go for it regardless of the reasoning.

The government is supposed to uphold the ideals america was founded on. If someone wishes to change that, we the people shall revolt.
If not, then when the country loses these ideals, it dies from the inside out.

I'm not saying our country could be a lot better, but there is no injustice in 1) dissolving marriage or 2) not allowing same sex marriage, at least according to our Constitution.

 

[Deanoz]

It infringes on freedom. Morals are irrelevant in the matter. So is god. Throw them all out the window with your personal beliefs, because they do not matter.

 

[Tipsy]

It infringes on freedom. Morals are irrelevant in the matter. So is god. Throw them all out the window with your personal beliefs, because they do not matter.

It infringes on your freedom? The federal government and courts have absolutely no ability in this matter. You want to know why? Not my faith, not my morals, not anything like that. The reasons being here:

Why the Judicial Branch of the government cannot create same sex marriage:
http://battleforums.com/showpost.php?p=1294155&postcount=15

Why Congress cannot create same sex marriage:
http://battleforums.com/showpost.php?p=1303329&postcount=103

So if you want to 'overthrow' any government, it will have to be your state government because the federal government cannot constitutionally do what you want without amending the Constitution.

The only point that actually seems to be in favor of the federal government messing in marriage was by forged:

I really don't know a whole lot about state law as I have never read my state's 20,000 word constituion nor any of the 230 amendments. However, marriage is a state issue, but it is in the interest of the federal goverment to keep it uniform. Depending on how you interprut it, they could legalize or ban gay marriage on the grounds of inter-state commerce.

And at that, I have yet to see how marriage (any sort, heterosexual or homosexual) generally benefits society more under the control of the government rather than marriage not under control by the government.

This leads into my opinion, which you can see here:
http://battleforums.com/showpost.php?p=1323318&postcount=136

So I put it to you to give me an argument that does not revolve around 'you can't not have same sex marriage because it is only forcing your religion upon other people.' I put it to you to give me an argument that is based on the Constitution.

At the very least, the federal government has an obligation to remove federal sponsored marriage benefits. I haven't actually done the research into the power of the states, but any advocate of creating same sex marriage doesn't have an ally in the Constitution the federal government follows.

Though you are right on one point, no morals or personal beliefs should be the factor in determining whether same sex marriage should exist or not.

 

[Deanoz]

Same sex marriage is not stated in the constitution.

The concept of liberty is stated in the fundamental ideals of the United States of America.

Thats an extremely narrow view of equal rights.
Thats like saying in the 1800s that anyone had the right to own a slave.

 

[Lights]

Tipsy talks sense, listen to him.


Still though, Tipsy, I believe you posted before about how you believe homosexual marriages would "hurt society." You may have (you probably have) posted already what you meant by that, but I must have missed it. Where you just talking about a state-sponsored marriage or do you mean private marriages, too?

 

[Lizardbreath]

The government should not interfere with something like this. Personally, if two men want to marry they should marry. What is a lame ass law going to do? Nothing. They are still going to live with eachother and do the same shit that they would do as if they were married. My opinion is if it doesn't appeal to you...than your opinion doesn't matter. The fact that you're trying to enforce your moral beliefs on other individuals shows how little you know about the basis of our government. The idea is that everybody is allowed to practice whatever they want...so long as it doesn't put a burden on society. To gay people being married does NO harm to society whatsoever. It means they have the means to be financially stable and get certain tax breaks for living with eachother. That's it. The government would have an interest if when the two individuals got married that society was as a whole was effected in a negative way. Let's face it. You live in a society with gay porn/bars/people, the fact that you can't get over this shows how homophobic you are.

 

[Tipsy]

Still though, Tipsy, I believe you posted before about how you believe homosexual marriages would "hurt society." You may have (you probably have) posted already what you meant by that, but I must have missed it. Where you just talking about a state-sponsored marriage or do you mean private marriages, too?

I am strictly talking about state-sponsored marriage. To put it simply, homosexual marriages hurt society because they are an abuse of government power. The government should not create (same sex marriage) or maintain (heterosexual marriage) an institution that wastes government money and no longer 'benefits the general welfare' of the country.

As for private marriage, the government doesn't have the right to regulate them.

The government should not interfere with something like this. Personally, if two men want to marry they should marry. What is a lame ass law going to do? Nothing. They are still going to live with eachother and do the same shit that they would do as if they were married.

So the government shouldn't interfere in its' own affairs? As for what will a 'lame ass law' do, it will stop a clear abuse of the power vested in the government by our Constitution.

My opinion is if it doesn't appeal to you...than your opinion doesn't matter.

In that case, the opinion of every single person who gives money to the government has an opinion that matters. To go with a large group, I'll go with everyone who pays taxes. It appeals to every single one of those people.

The fact that you're trying to enforce your moral beliefs on other individuals shows how little you know about the basis of our government. The idea is that everybody is allowed to practice whatever they want...so long as it doesn't put a burden on society.

The fact that the argument of 'you're trying to enforce your moral beliefs on other individuals' is still being used after eight pages of giving an argument based solely on the Constitution shows you haven't actually read my argument against same sex marriage.

To gay people being married does NO harm to society whatsoever. It means they have the means to be financially stable and get certain tax breaks for living with eachother. That's it. The government would have an interest if when the two individuals got married that society was as a whole was effected in a negative way.

Last time I checked, the government 1) abusing the power vested in it through the Constitution and 2) blatant wasting of money, especially with our wonderful situation money wise, does most definitely hurt society.

Let's face it. You live in a society with gay porn/bars/people, the fact that you can't get over this shows how homophobic you are.

So since people can do something in the private sector, it gives the right to the government to sponsor it? People have the ability to spend their money doing whatever they want (to the extent of using it to break the law), but the government does not. There are clear limits put on government spending that are not imposed upon citizens who will use their money to create/distribute gay porn, run/stock bars, etc.

Same sex marriage is not stated in the constitution.

The concept of liberty is stated in the fundamental ideals of the United States of America.

So why not give people the most possible liberty? Going back to my idea:

"So, with all of this in mind, I see the best thing to do is remove marriage from the government. With marriage completely unregulated by the government the people who don't want a [what they would probably considerable] credible organization recognizing 'marriage' between homosexuals get what they want. Marriage and the family is as protected as it is ever going to be. And people who use the reason of freedom get what they want. The government has no control, a church can marry two homosexuals, it can marry polygamous (for you Mormons out there), bigamy, a woman to a dolphin (which actually happened recently in another country), anything. That being said, it doesn't even have to be a church that marries people."

It gives a lot more 'liberty' than your idea and it is against civil same sex marriage.

As for an 'ideal', an ideal does not outweight the Constitution of the United States. I ask you to use an argument that actually holds legal weight.

Thats an extremely narrow view of equal rights.

It's the view of the Constitution, the view of the loosest possible interpretation giving the government the most possible power that can be given.

Thats like saying in the 1800s that anyone had the right to own a slave.

The government ruled that slaves were property (Dred Scott case) and since slaves were property, the government could not take them away without due process. A lot of people did have the right to own what was considered to be property.

As for saying anyone in the 1800s had the right to own slaves would be completely ignorant of history. Where slavery could and could not be resulted in things such as the Missouri Compromise which means in itself only people below the southern boarder of Missouri could own slaves, and slavery would not be permitted above it. And the history goes on, but I'm just using this one example.

 

[Deanoz]

The details in that don't matter, it is the concept that counts.

As for the constitution, I am thankful that it is a living document, and that the people should wake up from their blind ignorant state of being and realize what freedom and equality are, and make a change.

It's the view of the Constitution, the view of the loosest possible interpretation giving the government the most possible power that can be given.

If you say so.

 

[Lizardbreath]

Oh really tipsy? So all this uproar and court cases on same sex marriage should just be shut out. Right. That makes no sense. You obviously have no idea about what the government has to do with marriage. The government gives tax breaks to married people with children. Oh wait....they aren't allowed to do that anymore according to your ideology. Because the government recognizing "marriages" is an abuse of power. Then they should not recognize all marriages. Your ideas are very close minded.