Wow , My friend mass Destroy with about 6-7 fiend + web , lot of banshee to posesion and necro to cripple me , his ghoul and skeleton is annoying me all the time by surround my heroes . Althought i have mortar , rife and some priest , soc , breakers , but can do any thing , cuz his banshee cast anti - magic shield on almost her units . Necro cripple , and skele , His pit lord terror ( Level 3 ) and the naga with bow + Lighting . So what can i do ?
Hey there men and girls !
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GenocideAlive
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Try attacking before the 30 min. mark of the game. Sheesh.
Rifle/sorc is tier 2 and unstoppable for UD until well into tier 3, so you'll want to get there pretty quickly. Once you get rifles, you want to pump a few priests, a few sorcs. Creep your AM to L3 (clearing a mine) and get an MK. Go to the UD's base. Start shooting the shop, zigs, whatever is around. Once he arrives, rifle/sorc him to death. Use stormbolt to FF units down one by one.
If he totally turtles in his base with towers to avoid you, take some peasants to that mine you cleared and put up an expansion. Tech to tier 3, then build some workshops and get some Steam Tanks with barrage.
Rifle/sorc is tier 2 and unstoppable for UD until well into tier 3, so you'll want to get there pretty quickly. Once you get rifles, you want to pump a few priests, a few sorcs. Creep your AM to L3 (clearing a mine) and get an MK. Go to the UD's base. Start shooting the shop, zigs, whatever is around. Once he arrives, rifle/sorc him to death. Use stormbolt to FF units down one by one.
If he totally turtles in his base with towers to avoid you, take some peasants to that mine you cleared and put up an expansion. Tech to tier 3, then build some workshops and get some Steam Tanks with barrage.
ChrisH36
Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.
By manual cast they can, or you can simply just dispel the buff. That whole army looked like anti-casters, some air, and siege weapons could have destroyed._Mike said:
Emperor Pan I
Respected Member
No casters! Destroyers only feed casters. Don't bother with AM either, get a MK for start and rush. MK will rip up fiends and ghouls early and late game.
get Breakers, knights and D-hawks. Let the breakers and knights deal with fiends, and set the D-hawks on the necros. Kill necros first and foremost.
also
Get tanks. If he turtles blast the shit out of his base. Tanks can deal with destroyers.
get Breakers, knights and D-hawks. Let the breakers and knights deal with fiends, and set the D-hawks on the necros. Kill necros first and foremost.
also
Get tanks. If he turtles blast the shit out of his base. Tanks can deal with destroyers.
Revelade
BattleForums Member
Here's what I think. Definitely hit UD at tier 2. At tier 2, the most he is going to have is skeletons and curse. Tier 3 really gives UD power.
I would try AM/MK or even AM/PA. MK could have both stomp and bolt, but Pally is easier to keep alive and your AM alive.
Don't bother with breakers. Curse really isn't used, and cripple is at tier 3. Save your money and use it on priests with dispell.
I'm sorry Pan, but Knights would NOT work here. First of all, they come at tier 3, which is a bad time to hit UD. Second of all, necs/banshees/roys do magic damage which will own heavy armor. Finally curse and cripple work a lot better on them, than on many units.
It's not worth getting gryphon aviary for dhawks. They do crappy damage and their shackles are useless unless he gargs, which I bet he isn't. The better choice is to make a Workshop. Here, if he has MANY casters, you should pump out mortar teams, which gets better with the frag shards upgrade, which is VERY cheap, yet effective upgrade. You can also get the flare upgrade to scout easily and to check expos. A pally is a good choice for when they focus fire on your mortar teams.
If he gets MASSIVE roys, get MASSIVE flying machines. I used to doubt these guys, but they WORK. They are cheap and do a hell of a lot damage for their price. These guys are so cheap to make! 90 gold, 30 wood and 1 food! It's a bit more than a peon. The great thing is that you can make so many of these guys that even if they have web, a good number of them can still go after roys. Also, they serve as excellent scouts, with true sight. You can get bombs to harass his base, and later get FLAK cannons to do AoE damage. This unit is seriously underrated.
Siege tanks take a while in the tech tree to get. I've seen them work wonders in large air battles, so it could be well worth it. The strength of these guys is when they face large air numbers. So you might want to use rifles or flying machines to deal with smaller numbers. When they have 5 or more roys, get a siege machine. Try to face the enemy at their base, since their ground attack will be useless defending.
So in summary, get a mage and see if you like pally or mk better. You could use footmen, since theoretically, they are supposed to counter fiends, especially with defend. At tier 2, drop a workshop and an arcane sanctum. You will have to see what he is going before you make your army. If he's going fiends, you shouldn't make too many casters and probably focus on foots, rifles or mortars. If he has casters, get mortars, priests and rifles. As for ghouls, MK stomp will rip them up. Remember to use invisibilty from your sorcs to cloak hurt units!
And AMS from the Banshee is not dispellable. You'll have to focus on using physical attacks when facing it.
I would try AM/MK or even AM/PA. MK could have both stomp and bolt, but Pally is easier to keep alive and your AM alive.
Don't bother with breakers. Curse really isn't used, and cripple is at tier 3. Save your money and use it on priests with dispell.
I'm sorry Pan, but Knights would NOT work here. First of all, they come at tier 3, which is a bad time to hit UD. Second of all, necs/banshees/roys do magic damage which will own heavy armor. Finally curse and cripple work a lot better on them, than on many units.
It's not worth getting gryphon aviary for dhawks. They do crappy damage and their shackles are useless unless he gargs, which I bet he isn't. The better choice is to make a Workshop. Here, if he has MANY casters, you should pump out mortar teams, which gets better with the frag shards upgrade, which is VERY cheap, yet effective upgrade. You can also get the flare upgrade to scout easily and to check expos. A pally is a good choice for when they focus fire on your mortar teams.
If he gets MASSIVE roys, get MASSIVE flying machines. I used to doubt these guys, but they WORK. They are cheap and do a hell of a lot damage for their price. These guys are so cheap to make! 90 gold, 30 wood and 1 food! It's a bit more than a peon. The great thing is that you can make so many of these guys that even if they have web, a good number of them can still go after roys. Also, they serve as excellent scouts, with true sight. You can get bombs to harass his base, and later get FLAK cannons to do AoE damage. This unit is seriously underrated.
Siege tanks take a while in the tech tree to get. I've seen them work wonders in large air battles, so it could be well worth it. The strength of these guys is when they face large air numbers. So you might want to use rifles or flying machines to deal with smaller numbers. When they have 5 or more roys, get a siege machine. Try to face the enemy at their base, since their ground attack will be useless defending.
So in summary, get a mage and see if you like pally or mk better. You could use footmen, since theoretically, they are supposed to counter fiends, especially with defend. At tier 2, drop a workshop and an arcane sanctum. You will have to see what he is going before you make your army. If he's going fiends, you shouldn't make too many casters and probably focus on foots, rifles or mortars. If he has casters, get mortars, priests and rifles. As for ghouls, MK stomp will rip them up. Remember to use invisibilty from your sorcs to cloak hurt units!
And AMS from the Banshee is not dispellable. You'll have to focus on using physical attacks when facing it.
Emperor Pan I
Respected Member
Cripple and Curse are both very bad to have turned agaisnt you. And with priests, you can have destroyers focus on you and kill you, while Breakers are immune to Nova, Coil and magic attacks including the Necro and Banshee attacks.Revelade said:
My human army has never failed me yet. It is never a "bad time" to hit undead. thier easy to take down, especialy this crappy strategy. Necs and Banshee have shit damage, they could hardly get a knight into orange.
Yeah, and morter teams also are human. Thier very easy to focus, since they are heavy with destroyers.
Tanks>Gyro in term of anti air, and when the battles done, tanks will make short work of the undead base.
Revelade
BattleForums Member
You are right, when you do it your way. I prefer to hit the UD at tier 2, but he can do as you do and hit at tier 2.Pan said:
The reason that I'd say priests are better than spell breakers is two fold. First of all, spell breakers are only great at taking buffs/nerfs off. This means, if they aren't spamming curse, or if they don't have banshees at all, you have just made a bad investment. Next, since necs are used more than banshees, skeletons will rip breakers apart. There will be too many skeletons and they do normal damage which is great against normal armor. Now priests cost MUCH cheaper, take less food, build faster and do AoE to kill many skeletons on the spot. Not only that, but they can also get rid of curse, which is another way to handle nerfs/buffs. So really, I don't see a point in breakers here.
I don't play human much, but I don't find playing against a decent UD player anything "easy" like you say. It just seems more logical and easier to hit them at tier 2 however.
Well roys are tier 3, so you better have either gyros or tanks to fight against them. It is true that tanks could be better than gyros. However, you have better scout capabilities with gyros and speed. You can pursue running destroyers, which is a huge advantage. Overall, it's your choice, though I find gyros easier to obtain and make since they cost less and come at tier 2. The best compromise could be making gyros at tier 2 and switching to tanks at tier 3.
I wouldn't say tanks are better than gyros. They each have their own purposes. I find gyros more viable since they cost less, build faster and don't need an upgrade to attack air. They also have useful scouting and harassing purposes. With a tank, you have durability, but they each have different strengths. Using both would be the best option.
I'm not saying you are wrong Pan. We aren't making the same argument since you focus on tier 3 units, while I like to charge at tier 2. We are giving him different advice, but it's up to him to decide what to choose.
Emperor Pan I
Respected Member
I think the biggest thing is, I only play humans in a FFA, so I am used to having all units available at all times, most bieng tier 3.
ChrisH36
Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.
Most of the races are weak at tier 2 anyways. That is when they are developing the units they need for the strategy. As always with rushing, strike them during this timeframe. Still be prepared to fight t1 units some players might still have.
While they creeping, take advantage of angle of attack and also creep jacking. This will allow you to cause some real damage especially when they are fighting a tough creep like a yellow or red. Since the creep is almost helping you out, until they start attacking you.
While they creeping, take advantage of angle of attack and also creep jacking. This will allow you to cause some real damage especially when they are fighting a tough creep like a yellow or red. Since the creep is almost helping you out, until they start attacking you.
TheoStormhawk
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I can't believe u man, u say that u have problems with magic and spells against the race that until it gets tier 3 (and some few minutes upgrading the destroyer) can't do nothing to dispel your magic.I_am_noob said:
Against cripple, curse, and terror use breakers they will kick as.Against skelies use dispel , against spellshield
DISPEL IT.
SPELLSHIELD can be dispeled using: dispel magic, abolish magic, purge, dischenant, even destroyers can dispel it......
And another thing, the UD is a weak spellcaster, and his best spells can be used against him(curse, cripple), against fiends use some basic melee (preferable knights), and against destroyers use rifle.If he goes spellcasters it will become weak against human units because they are more powerful.
And kill that 2 armor points stupid hero PIT LORD.
Revelade
BattleForums Member
I don't know how to say this, but STOP TALKING OUT OF YOUR BUTT. AMS is NOT DISPELLABLE.TheoStormhawk said:
Second breakers aren't worth the money. Priests do it much better and it's an AREA OF EFFECT spell.
Third, Pit Lord doesn't compare to DK or Lich. Theoretically it can work, but DK and Lich are much safer.
Finally, UD casters are great, but nobody seems to use them.
ChrisH36
Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.
Pit lord is only recommended as a second hero when you have a death knight ready to heal 400-600 of his life. As a first hero, he need Rain of Fire to be effective. Because howl may have a deadly effect like cutting your enemies attack strength by 50% (at lvl 3 howl), but without a way to heal him, he cannot continue the awesome cleaving attack that he was designed for.
Besides the only way to dispel AMS (I figured that out now) is to cause 300 damage of magic or wait 90 seconds for it to dispel, but in battle waiting won't help you at all. Sad how no one ever uses banshees nowadays to protect thier heroes from hurtful casters and spell damage.
Besides the only way to dispel AMS (I figured that out now) is to cause 300 damage of magic or wait 90 seconds for it to dispel, but in battle waiting won't help you at all. Sad how no one ever uses banshees nowadays to protect thier heroes from hurtful casters and spell damage.
TheoStormhawk
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Yes u are right on this version, (1.18) is not dispellable, but as I recall in all the other ones is dispellable.Revelade said:
So, tell me, can spells be dispeled inside the magic shield?
I mean for example if a Frost Wyrm has Unholy Frenzy and spellshield, is the Frenzy dispellable?
About the pit lord , like hellwolf said his spells are great, hawl of terror is good and cleaving attack is great, but this hero has a super shortcoming: HIS ARMOR. His starting armor is shit man (only 2), what is the point of the cleaving attack if he can't use it, this makes him stupid and not to mention the low mana pool. Imagine if the Blademaster had 2 starting armor or Demon Hunter, I mean that the blademaster can use critical strike, but the pit lord no way man for the cleaving attack.
Concerning the breakers issue priests are one solution, but not the best in my opinion, why should you dispel cripple in mass, maybe u have inner fire or staff of protection on your units. U can use cripple and curse against them not to mention that breakers have feedback and are excelent when focusing fire on heroes.
About your replay, why didn't u tried few more dispels, at least 2 (considering that priest dispel 150 points of magic, maybe the double would dispel spellshield).
If u think that UD casters are so great u can use them, especially at tier 2, maybe we are all noobs and that's way we don't use them.
And another thing I'm not talking out of my butt, if an UD player can defeat u with the strategy that this guy mentioned on this thread then, no offense, I think u are noob, I mean the strategy isn't bad, but by the time he gets all this types of units I and every good player will have "the works" of every race.
ChrisH36
Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.
If you saw my Pit Lord games, you can see how I can keep him alive as even my first hero. First off, you need him to be at least Level 2. Without Cleave, he is weak. Second, only one of the spells can be chosen; otherwise you will burn off your mana really fast.TheoStormHawk said:
Revelade
BattleForums Member
I apologize for my rude attitude (hey that rhymes).TheoStormhawk said:
My guess is that a buff or debuff on an AMS unit would be dispelled, but I could be wrong.
Yea, Pit Lord just doesn't work well. Rain of fire would be great, but it costs 85 and he has low mana. In addition, many players can just run when it is casted. Howl is okay, but it requires him to be in the front lines, vulnerable and the enemy can run their units off. It's only great when facing MANY units, usually at the mid game. Finally, cleaving forces the PL to be in center stage, where he can easily be FF'ed. Doom could be great, but it's not instant and it's hard to get the PL to level 6.
Breakers cost more at 215 gold, while priests are only 135. Next, for every 2 breakers, you can have 3 priests. That alone justifies dispell. Thirdly, priests can use heal and later, inner fire, which makes them more versatile. Fourth, chances are, any decent UD player will not have their heroes in the front lines. They will keep them back to avoid FF. That would make targetting say a DK with breakers hard. Fifth, the armor of breakers is medium, which takes bonus damage from skeletons normal attack. Sixth, cooldown for spell steal is 3 seconds, while dispell has NO cool down. Seventh, spellsteal only works on buffs/debuffs, while dispell works on those AND skeletons. Finally, the priest has more mana to do AoE dispells, while breakers have only so much mana to do single spellsteals that take 3 seconds to cooldown. Did I mention priests do magic damage, which does bonus to skeletons?
So what I'm trying to say is this. Dispell is just better because:
- it works on skeletons as WELL as buffs/debuffs (versatile)
- no cooldown (faster)
- area of effect (larger)
- priests have more mana (300 compared to breakers 250)
If you have a 5 cursed rifles clumped together, you can use 1 or 2 dispells and that's it for 150 mana. If you have spell breaker, not only do you have to waste 75X5 mana, but you will have to wait 12 seconds for the cool down of spell steal to work.
Armies of skeletons? Are you going to waste 81 mana to control 1 skeleton, when necros can summon 2 for only 75 mana? Dispell wins here.
Mass cripple? I have yet to see that, but you clump them and give 1-3 dispells and it's all fine. Say you have 5 units crippled. 1 or 2 dispells that cost 150 total have erased what he has done with 175x5 mana. Perfect sense to me.
From what I've played, UD players RARELY use banshees. There's a good chance you might not even steal a single spell at all.
I think UD casters are great, but are incredibly nerfed vs anticasters, more so than other races casters. All spells of the necro can be dispelled, while AMS is only great as defense. Possession is difficult to use than say, healing ward, bloodlust or inner fire. If you don't like UD casters, I can see why. It's just something people don't expect.
Again, I'm sorry if I offended you by my other post. I only called you that because you said AMS is dispellable.
Emperor Pan I
Respected Member
You said a whole lot about why priests are good, but not the other side of the equation. Breakers are a much more versatile unit. Breakers are both immune, and have feedback ability. Plus, innerfire, or slow will also be dispelled if you cast dispel on your units by accident.
Priets start with no armor, 250 hp and have an attack average of 8.5.
That basis alone justifies the price jump, considering statisticly the breaker is almost double as effective.
they both have strengths and weaknesses. But priests are fragile, and need good support, or wagons/fiends/destroyers will roll right over them. None of those units will do so to a breaker.
Breakers also start with 3 armor, 600 hp and deal 15 damage.Revelade said:
Priets start with no armor, 250 hp and have an attack average of 8.5.
That basis alone justifies the price jump, considering statisticly the breaker is almost double as effective.
and one breaker could kill 100 priests single handedly. Numbers don't always decide victories.
Breakers can steal the very units your fighting against and turn them on eachother. Breakers can give your units bloodlust, inner fire, or unholy frenzy if you desire it to be so. Breakers also have feedback. the perfect anticaster.
It is a chance, but a meele hero is more often then not compelled to run up and attack single handedly. Especialy with the speed, UD players get caught up and try and perform a superhero move by thinking thier DK is invincible.
Which is why your hero isn't alwyas your first concern. If you can't take a hero, you do what ever is neccissary to remove the advantage. If a hero isn't in the front lines, chances are he isn't doing alot.
that is interesting. Skeleton mages do piercing attack, which does as much damage to a Priest as a skeleton warrior does to a Breaker. This sounds even, since each corpses provides one of each. However, Breakers can withstand alot more hits, even with armor problems than a priest can becuase of higher armor and Health. Not to mention if a good undead player is using necros, you can be sure that wagons are involved. And Wagons deal a hell of alot of damage to unarmored priests. Also throwing fiends into the mix, they will rip up priests from a distance. the worst a breaker has to worry about is meele attacks, since piercing is reduced for a breaker.
Cooldown is higher true, but we must also remember that the range for a breakers is higher. You can steal from farther away. A meatwagon has 115 range. A priest has 50 range to cast. You think a priest is going to prance up with out a little focus on it?
You forget that a breaker can take a skeleton warrior, and turn it agaisnt the other for 81 mana, it can then theoreticly attack the enemy caster and destroy it's mana. Cause a few shots with a breaker, and whatever it is will no longer have mana. Priests dispel sounds better, and in some situations are better, but it has a huge downside. It has a small AOE, but it will remove all buffs/debuffs off of everyhting. If you have say knights with inner fire, it will remove that inner. If you have slow on your enemys, it will remove that slow. It is a love/hate relationship cuase you essentialy can burn your own mana from your own casters. Breakers however will not do this.
Priests have 200 magic at initiate. 300 at adept and 400 at master. assume were not that far into the game, a priet might only have 300. If that is the case a Breaker has only 50 less mana(250) which is higher than a starting priest. A breaker can cast spell steal 3 times before running out, and only has to wait for 50 mana before you can do a fourth. Priests can do 4 true.
they both have strengths and weaknesses. But priests are fragile, and need good support, or wagons/fiends/destroyers will roll right over them. None of those units will do so to a breaker.
*Turok
Member!
Pan said:
Pan no offence but breakers vs undead sucks ghouls Pwn breakers so hard u wont even see them in a battle... i suggest us having an undead vs human match and a hum vs hum match observed by 8 obZ ^_^ to see who the better player is i love challenges and this is one soon to be accomplished howbout that .... do u accept add me on msn turok342@hotmail.com
btw does bf have an irc channel if they do plz inform me thx peace
_-Turok-_
ChrisH36
Guy with Most Posts on Quiet Board.
However, Priests succumb to the spell effects and take more damage from piercing attacks. Also, you can't do much with them because you basically can't improve your units with Inner Fire; otherwise you are making "Destroyer Food".Pan & Revelade said:
You might want to consider fighting magic with magic. I mean hero stuff. AoE's from the humans can destroy most casters if aimed properly to a point where they cannot escape too easily.
Breakers can still be destroyed by fiends and heroes, so don't get too cocky with those units. Dispel and anti-magic is the key to beating that ud strategy, but be ready with ways to defend yourself from anti-dispel and anti-anti magic.