Getting back to ghouls...

[Revelade]

I'd like y'all to try ghouls this week and see how they go.

Ghouls used to be popular back then, but now are just wood pickers. These guys have a measely 330 hp, BUT they have a high dps at 10! These guys are fairly fast with the frenzy upgrade. With these facts, ghouls are meant to be shock troopers - they move in quickly, assassinate, and run out.

Mad Frog used to use this type of strategy. I loved watching his replays.

The key is AVOID THE ENEMY. This sounds insane, but the more you avoid them, the less losses you will take. Instead, I am thinking about creeping lightly and having several towers in case of an attack. Tech quickly to tier 3 and get frenzy. Once you get that, get 20 ghouls and start a charge to the enemy base.

DO NOT engage if they are there. Instead, creep around. You might want to drop a sacrificial pit and send one to their base and their army. Then you should attack their town hall when they are GONE and if they TP, GET OUT. If they run in, use YOUR TP.

I'm tired of this BIG BAD army war WC3 has turned into. I want to try hit and run tactics. As for hero choice... DK would be great for the speed, but I'd say DL's aura helps more in terms of health and his ultimate is powerful.

 

[Ntrik_]

How about both DK and DL?

I know Zaku tried this tactic in AT with someone (theroy was it? not too sure..) they used 2 DR that time, and they won the game at the turning point in the end.. reply posted in the replay section, but its from awhile back

 

[pesho_h_k]

... Tech quickly to tier 3 and ...

Tech to tier 3?!?!?!?
Hm ... I don't think so ...
in this case you'll be vulnerable to players who rely on rush ...

most players I know are such ones

 

[ChrisH36]

The thing I like about Ghouls is how reliable they are at defending your base with your units when they are equipped with the ghoul frenzy upgrade. They only help you in battle if you have aboms and you want an extra kick or extra meat shields to add with your fiends (or gargs if you dont use fiends lol).

But this unit alone is half the reason I have a weakness with using Undead. I tend to go too ghoul overboard to a point where I could have used that gold to get some fiends. However, in my old 2on2 RTs; I could flood ghouls like nuts. I'd have 5-6 for a rush, if that fails, I put the survivors on wood after cannabalizing and flood more out. But this only works if the enemy didnt tech to air.

 

[Ntrik_]

Tech to tier 3?!?!?!?
Hm ... I don't think so ...
in this case you'll be vulnerable to players who rely on rush ...

most players I know are such ones

I doubt it, UD towers are pretty darn solid defence mechanism in tier 1,

and when in tier 2, you'll have new units to protect yourself.

 

[ChrisH36]

Also, you probably would need about 3 towers armed for results.

 

[TheoStormhawk]

I'd like y'all to try ghouls this week and see how they go.

Ghouls used to be popular back then, but now are just wood pickers. These guys have a measely 330 hp, BUT they have a high dps at 10! These guys are fairly fast with the frenzy upgrade. With these facts, ghouls are meant to be shock troopers - they move in quickly, assassinate, and run out.

Mad Frog used to use this type of strategy. I loved watching his replays.

The key is AVOID THE ENEMY. This sounds insane, but the more you avoid them, the less losses you will take. Instead, I am thinking about creeping lightly and having several towers in case of an attack. Tech quickly to tier 3 and get frenzy. Once you get that, get 20 ghouls and start a charge to the enemy base.

DO NOT engage if they are there. Instead, creep around. You might want to drop a sacrificial pit and send one to their base and their army. Then you should attack their town hall when they are GONE and if they TP, GET OUT. If they run in, use YOUR TP.

I'm tired of this BIG BAD army war WC3 has turned into. I want to try hit and run tactics. As for hero choice... DK would be great for the speed, but I'd say DL's aura helps more in terms of health and his ultimate is powerful.

In my opinion madfrog was the best ever to play this game.

About what u say, ghouls have a big problem, their hp and low armor, because this is a huge shortcoming for a melee unit, even if they have fast attack speed.
Most of the UD players, as u say, have dropped the ghoul strategy and go to fiends.
Recently I've seen in a some replays from this latest season of wc3l a 2v2 strategy with DL+DK and tons of ghouls + skelies and this strat worked very well.

Madfrog was an expert, he had an incredible micro manner, not to mention that he always knew what units the opponent had. His speciality in killing was NE (that is why I think that a game between him and spirit moon would be interesting) and "only" about 300apm average. He usualy did NE only with ghouls and gargoyles.

So the thing is that ghouls go very well with DL, but for the UD, DK is a must, the vampiric is the only thing that can keep them alive at start. Also ghouls are good in large numbers (about 11) wich combined with rod of necromancy and good attack tactics can overwhelm the enemy. They are a rush weapon, but can be used inside the base too for defense helped by the nerubian towers.

For me the ghoul strategy or the fiends strategy chosing criteria depends only for what type and race of enemy I have.

 

[ChrisH36]

But even thier longevity being so short, a Ghoul's fast attack could do some damage before they fall. Besides, they become necro fodder when they are dead. So that ghoul becomes 2 skeletons. When I was learning to play UD, I used to do Ghouls/Necs a lot with meatwagon and DL/DK support. If the ghouls died, skeletons take thier place. I would either sleep or bomb thier dispellers with siege. If my dl was hurt, I would heal him. If my dk is hurt, I'd Death pact a skeleton.

 

[TheoStormhawk]

But even thier longevity being so short, a Ghoul's fast attack could do some damage before they fall. Besides, they become necro fodder when they are dead. So that ghoul becomes 2 skeletons. When I was learning to play UD, I used to do Ghouls/Necs a lot with meatwagon and DL/DK support. If the ghouls died, skeletons take thier place. I would either sleep or bomb thier dispellers with siege. If my dl was hurt, I would heal him. If my dk is hurt, I'd Death pact a skeleton.

Those skelies replace the ghouls, and because of them the enemy can get overwhelmed even at start.
Unfortunately, later because of the easy dispel means, the necro becomes useless.

 

[ChrisH36]

But you could but the meat wagons in a subgroup and ff upon these dispellers. Vs Orc is more annoying if they have walkers.

 

[Equalizer]

Does the necrowagon actually work anymore? It seems like a good strategy, but with the dispels, I don't know.

 

[ChrisH36]

It works if you decieve your opponent and you surprise him before he can get dispels. Either that or you have to kill them somehow. By either wyrms (sws) or by nuking off priests with meat wagons.

 

[Revelade]

It's all about speed and preventing them from scouting. The moment they see temples building, they will go fo anticasters. Let me tell you this: it works, at least in RT. I'm ranked on west thanks to using this strategy.

You fast tech and either drop 3 temples, or go for 2 temples and 1 slaughterhouse. At the slaughterhouse, you want to get the corpse upgrade, a wagon and a statue. You want at least 5 necromancers and the adept upgrade at the temple.

Use it and rush.

 

[G-Blunted]

Ghouls never went anywhere...

Uhmmm, this is kind of a strange thread...because ghouls never "left" (as you say we're comming back to them?)...you talk like some how ghouls are no longer the strategy to use which is really crazy and makes me think you play RT 4's....in 3v3 and 4v4 RT ghouls are useless as anything but workers....in 2v2 they are a very viable option, about 50/50 with fiends...like basically you can go ghouls when you want...but in solo you should open with ghouls every game unless you're gosu or just want to try spiders vs. orc....no professional Warcraft 3 UD player is going to open spiders unless their name is GoStop or Philbot....WE.SWEET who just won WEG...and 4k^FoV who's taking Star Wars (Or was it incup? I Can't remember what he just won...) are both UD...and both use ghouls extensively! You guys should check out their replays...these are the two best UD players in the world right now....

Edit: These are the two best players *IN THE WORLD* right now....people used to say Spirit_Moon...but he's been losing recently...and just recently lost to FoV!! UD'S ARE TAKING OVER THE WORLD!!!

 

[Revelade]

I've played 500 games and I've rarely seen ghouls used, when I play. AoE kills them, FF kills them and 360 damage that might kill a ghoul would'nt mean anything to a fiend that tps or burrows. My point is that from what I have played, I haven't seen ghouls used often.

Back in the day, when fiends were weaker, I have seen ghouls used more often. I remember watching Madfrog replays and having armies of ghouls attack bases, forcing tps.

I'd like to watch your replays as the replays I have been watching, the players use fiends.

And I'd like to let you know I'm on the west RT ladder thanks to 2v2.

 

[G-Blunted]

http://www.wcreplays.com/_replays/6052/20051218/[wcr20051218]4K_FoV_(U)_Spirit_Moon_(N)_1.w3g

This is 4k^FoV vs. Spirit_Moon...sp-m used to be the best in the world...introducing mass xpo imba....also this is playoff round on FoV's trip to CIG champion....Not a single spider vs. the best NE in the world....

http://www.wcreplays.com/_replays/6052/20051218/[wcr20051218]wNv_xiaOt_(O)_4K_FoV_(U)_3.w3g

Another playoff game vs Orc....27 ghouls made here with only *TWO* crypt fiends soley to web wyvern so ghouls can tear 'em up (but as you can see his lich does a pretty good job too)...and to emphisise even more his total unit count here is 27 ghouls, 2 fiends, 1 statue, and 1 destroyer....so as you can see an army of ghouls used the whole game with nothing else really...and this vs. an ORC?! Not to mention a top tier very good orc player...

http://www.wcreplays.com/_replays/6052/20051219/[wcr20051219]4K_ToD_(H)_4K_FoV_(U)_0.w3g

This is the CIG Final's....4K^FoV...didn't make a single fiend this game vs this HU...


So there ya go...watch these replays and you'll learn a lot! WE.IGE.Sweet is another UD you should watch. He's second best

 

[ChrisH36]

It's all about speed and preventing them from scouting. The moment they see temples building, they will go fo anticasters. Let me tell you this: it works, at least in RT. I'm ranked on west thanks to using this strategy.
Use it and rush.

Tell that to FFA. I have been necrowagoned plenty of times, and I still manage to push them back by going for thier casters in the back with siege.
Just gotta make sure that my walkers have the mana to keep casting Disenchant.

 

[G-Blunted]

You watch those replays Revelade? They all very good games

 

[Revelade]

I can't watch them because I'm banned from wcreplays thanks to the abusive moderator IC.Shadow. I made a thread on using paladin, people argued and I was left to be moderated. I then asked why I was the only one in trouble and I pointed out other threads where people got away for free. Then he decided to ban me. It's been like that for a few months now.

I tried contacting the admin, but I can't seem to reach him as he doesn't check his email. I'd like someone to explain my case to the admin, but I can't find who will. It's too bad as I did enjoy discussing WC3 with many people there.

 

[G-Blunted]

I can't watch them because I'm banned from wcreplays thanks to the abusive moderator IC.Shadow. I made a thread on using paladin, people argued and I was left to be moderated. I then asked why I was the only one in trouble and I pointed out other threads where people got away for free. Then he decided to ban me. It's been like that for a few months now.

I tried contacting the admin, but I can't seem to reach him as he doesn't check his email. I'd like someone to explain my case to the admin, but I can't find who will. It's too bad as I did enjoy discussing WC3 with many people there.

Aww..that's too bad...maybe I try to find your post and send in your request once i get home....wcreplays is chill, but they're all just way too much in to cookie cutter strats and push them and cookie cutter is the only way blah blah blah...i mean all the threads now are simply redundant...