Evolution or Creation

Primitivo

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This is my first thread. Forgive me for any language errors but English is not my native language.

I just want to Know your opinion about the Evolution/Creation problem. Do you think that evolution is a threat against religious beliefs.
 

Tempest Storm

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Originally posted by Primitivo
This is my first thread. Forgive me for any language errors but English is not my native language.

I just want to Know your opinion about the Evolution/Creation problem. Do you think that evolution is a threat against religious beliefs.
Don't worry, you seem to speak English better than many ppl here to whom it is their first language. ;)

My though, I'm Evolution all the way. As for it being a threat, I suppose some could and do perceive it that way. But our understanding of the past changes with time, as we learn new things. Religion doesn't change with time. The Bible was created thousands of years ago and still teaches it's ancient messages. This is where the conflict begins and ultimatly ends. Do we know more today than the "chosen" prophets of old.
 

IK_Honor

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For those who don't believe in evolution: Explain to me how bacteria can adapt to antibiotics over time.
 

Cananduril

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sure it does...whole dna strand mutate in bacteria, adaptation is the same as evolution, adaptation is just what we call evolution on a scale visible to mankind, course can only observe such a scale in lifeforms like bacteria cause they breed so damn fast.

anyway, your wrong there mark, evolution does exist, but the questions isn't does it exist, but did god create evolution, or did evolution create god, as a way for humanity to reconcile in their own minds that which they can't grasp?
 

TheInfiltrator

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Any1 that believes in Creation is full of sh!t. I mean come on 2 people ate a fruit and we all are d@mned to hell? If there is one thing church taught me its that god doesnt punish peopel, he forgives
 

bamthedoc

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And we could say the same about evolutionist (especially Darwinians) with more evidence. Yes, we do have evidence, it just isn't recognized in text books so people believe it isn't there (or doesn't exist). I'm a neo-Creationist, so my exact beliefs are...complicated. I believe that GOD created the Earth and the initial species (and humans), and that HE and humans directed evolution.

Trust me, it's a lot more complicated than that that. And my studies have pulled up more research than I will dare to remember.

I "grew" out of Creationism as I got to know more about the Bible and my religion. I've had a lot of time to think, and I have grown to hate the "public" knowledge. It's limited and doesn't give you the full picture. To those of you like TheInfiltrator, think before you respond. You really don't understand what you're talking about.

GOD comdemned man because he disobeyed him. HE knew they would, so HE "prepared" the way for HIMSELF to save man.

So, where did your arguement come from? It has no merit (or argumenitive points).

MarkS never said evolution doesn't exist; he simply stated it as what it is. Adaption. In any case, that's kind of what neo-Creationists say, but we believe that GOD and man direct evolution. Now, you may not see how (or why), but there are good sources out there that are...difficult to find.

On to something else (deals with evolution):
It amazes me everytime a scientists is amazed by something so simple! Did you know that the actual size of the human genome is less than half the original estimated size? True, it was a preliminary count, but you should really think about it.

My simplest explaination is this. GOD is a master artist. No, HE's THE Artist. HE is able to paint a variety of "things" with few "colors". HE works with four colors that scientists cannot, and have never been able to, explain. Adenine, Cytosine, Guanine, and Thymine. There is also Uresil, but that's another storty. Alltogether, that's A, C, G, and T that makes up the tapestry of life. Something that simple makes something so complex. So, perhaps the simplest explaination is the best.

HE created all, but HE changes it too.

I am a neo-Creationist who has done extensive research into the area of both evolution and creation. I have come to the same conclusion as those before me. I have decided to be a neo-Creationist.

How does that answer your questions?

Oh, and Tempest, an interesting addendem.
 

Primitivo

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My simplest explaination is this. GOD is a master artist. No, HE's THE Artist. HE is able to paint a variety of "things" with few "colors". HE works with four colors that scientists cannot, and have never been able to, explain. Adenine, Cytosine, Guanine, and Thymine. There is also Uresil, but that's another storty. Alltogether, that's A, C, G, and T that makes up the tapestry of life. Something that simple makes something so complex. So, perhaps the simplest explaination is the best.
[/B]


That simpliest explanation isn't scientific because it's based on your personal beliefs. Mybe God was in the beginning, but that is a philosophical hypothesis. Creationism is not science because it's not falsiable. Evolution on the other hand is perfectly falsiable, but until now there is no evidence against evolution.
 

MarkS

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Originally posted by Primitivo
Evolution on the other hand is perfectly falsiable, but until now there is no evidence against evolution.
Let me direct you to this page. It's an amatuer site, not a well designed page, and some of the information is contrversial, but overal, it presents pretty much pure evidence against evolution.

http://www.geocities.com/ajm920/bibleproof-summary.html
 

bamthedoc

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Originally posted by Primitivo
That simpliest explanation isn't scientific because it's based on your personal beliefs. Mybe God was in the beginning, but that is a philosophical hypothesis. Creationism is not science because it's not falsiable. Evolution on the other hand is perfectly falsiable, but until now there is no evidence against evolution.
Oh boy! You did not just say that! I explained in my previous post that there is as much research (recently more actually) by Christians into Creationism as evolutionists into Evolutionism. There is as much evidence in both fields. Why? The evolutionists haven't been able to prove anything! What I said was a simple explaination. Want me to find the "evidence"? That's easier said than done. I'm actually somewhat surprised by MarkS available resources. If he could find anything for me on neo-Creationism (who believe basic evolution theory on similar principals to evolutionist), that would be somewhat funny. Why? I found it easier five years ago doing a research project on "evolution". I've been looking for it recently, but it's as if all search engines that I know of are "hiding" them. I don't know why, however.

Now, do you want to rethink your statement? If not, I'm sure some of the most scientific of the people in here (which includes me at times) will tear you apart with various arguements.

My biggest one right now is a summarized quote:

We believe evolution exists. We have as much evidence that our theories are valid in as much as Christians (I don't know why he singled us out...) can prove GOD exists. But, like a religion, our "proof" is based on faith.

~~scientist accepting some award



Ha! Try that on for size! When was this said? Not sure of the year, but it was very recent. If anyone knows (or the exact quote), all the better to put the point out. I'm not lieing; I don't like doing that.
 

Tempest Storm

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Mark, I don't have the time now to offer my proof, but be tonight I'll have it for ya. One thing I noticed on your site, was this:

There are almost 10 billion people in the world. Hemoglobin, a protein, is required for humans to exist.
Now, I guess you could consider 6.5 billion to be "almost" 10 billion. But I call it bad math.
 

MarkS

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Originally posted by Tempest Storm
Now, I guess you could consider 6.5 billion to be "almost" 10 billion. But I call it bad math.
As I said, some of the evidence on that site is controversial, and that's why I gave a warning so someone wouldn't shove it in my face. You are correct that that number is flawed, but it doesn't change what point was trying to be proven in that paragraph. Either number works fine.
 

Tempest Storm

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Originally posted by MarkS
As I said, some of the evidence on that site is controversial, and that's why I gave a warning so someone wouldn't shove it in my face. You are correct that that number is flawed, but it doesn't change what point was trying to be proven in that paragraph. Either number works fine.
I'm not trying to shove anything in your face, but it's my job to discredit that stuff. ;)

And if he got a mere number, that is so easy to find out, then I wonder what else he may have gotten wrong.
 

MarkS

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Originally posted by Tempest Storm
I'm not trying to shove anything in your face, but it's my job to discredit that stuff. ;)

And if he got a mere number, that is so easy to find out, then I wonder what else he may have gotten wrong.
I'm not saying you, I have great respect for you. But some other (unnamed) people have gotten to the border of 'bashing' and yelling when people say stuff that they think is a complete lie...you know what I mean.

There are also some references to books and authors where some of that information was taken from at the bottom if you want to check those out too.
 

Tempest Storm

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Originally posted by MarkS
There are also some references to books and authors where some of that information was taken from at the bottom if you want to check those out too.
I'll definatly check those out then.

Where did the Earth come from? As our sun condensed from interstellar gas (which is how we are currently observing, in every stage, thousands of stars just like our sun doing right now), it naturally took on a spin, as all things in the universe have a tendency to do. The layers of matter striated, and there were several lesser vortexes in the outer regions of the cloud, away from the rapid fusion center. They did not fall inward because rotational momentum overcame gravitational pull, again like just about everything else in the universe. They condensed, but the pressure was nowhere near enough to create fusion, and so they were just left as relatively inert blobs of matter, i.e. planets.

You're right, accepting evolution on blind faith is a huge step. Luckily for us, there's no reason we have to use that kind of faith. It is not terribly difficult to observe. Amino acids form naturally all the time, in wide ranges of conditions. Proteins also form from amino acids in random configurations all the time. There are numerous forms of microbes (not even considered "life" that are little more than self-reproducing blobs of protein. RNA is very complex, but it can self-reproduce with only a tiny fragment (like in deep-sea microbes, much less complex than even a simple virus), and the probability of such happening over a period of a billion years on an entire planet with ideal conditions for it taking place is almost certain. In fact, it almost certainly happened thousands, even millions of times before one strand was finally successful. Mutation would be and still is rampant, and the slightly more adaptable variations would survive and produce more like them, becoming more and more complex until it became something like simple algae, which soon covered the entire planet. We know this happened about 3 billion years ago, because this is when the first layers of organic soil began to appear.

Ok so far?

From there it was a ridiculously complex journey. Algae become lichens, become simple plants (like seaweed), becomes protozoans. I say "becomes" like it's something simple, but it takes hundreds of millions of generations of selective reproduction. We HAVE the fossil evidence for this, the first multicelled plants. From there it is relatively easy to track life's progress, through a long series of steps up until you get invertabre animals. Keep in mind that for most of Earth's history, it was only plants, and only aquatic. From there it's the widely known story: jellyfish to shellfish, etc., until you get vertebrae fish. Even the leap from assexual to sexual reproduction had many intermediate steps, which I'll go into if you want. Competition becomes extreme in the oceans, and some fish find surprising refuge on the shoreline, which aside from the competition would be a much harsher place for life to exist than the oceans. There are still fish that can do this, slither onto land for short distances. From there you get amphibians like frogs (but of course not literally frogs, and of course terrestrial plants. Amphibians evolve slowly, with several documented intermediate steps, into cold-blooded reptiles. They build more and more resistance to climate and gain more adaptability and better metabolism, simply because those individual organisms with slightly of these traits are more likely to live and reproduce. Eventually you get extremely rudimentary mammal-like creatures, and dinosaurs. All of this, too, is obviously documented, and I assure you the giant skeleton fossils in the natural history museums are not fake. It is easy to see over time how the fossils changed, in a steady continuum consistent with what would logically be good survival traits in the changing conditions. Eventually you get rodents and the very first birds. Then, some natural disaster, that we believe was probably a meteor impact (there is a layer of rock from that period all over the world with high concentrations of minerals not naturally found on Earth), drastically changed the climate and caused almost all of the dinosaurs to die off. This was 65 million years ago.

Still ok? What I've talked about so far is about 99% of the Earth's history, by the way. Moving on...

Mammals, who were better adapted for such conditions, had a chance to become dominant, rapidly (a relative term, obviously) evolving to more and more complex and competitive forms. Once again I'd like to remind you that this is not just common sense, we can also see it happening fairly easily with fossil, geological, and chemical evidence. If you want to argue about why it happened, I'll win, but we can drag it out for a long time. If you want to argue if it happened, then it is extremely easy to prove you wrong.

Ok, now do you accept human beings can evolve from other complex mammals? Almost everyone does given the preceeding explanation, but if you really insist I am quite capable of explaining why it happened, how it happened, and how we know all about it.

As for the whole "where the universe came from" question, I can assure you there are several plausible explanations from people who actually know what they are talking about, for all of which the addition of some supreme being is needless, irrelevant, and a pointless complication.
 

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Here is something that doesn't quite respond to what you were saying, but it is interesting and talks about the formation of the earth and it's foundations of rock. You should agree with the science in it:

Radiohaloes of Polonium 210,214,& 218 Found within Granite


While examining thin sections (very thin slices) of granites, Dr. Robert V. Gentry found certain ring-type structures, {or "haloes"}, within samples of granites from all around the Earth. These impressions had to be put into the granites sometime during their formation, due to the fact that they are within the matrix,(or crystaline structure), and not stamped on the outside of the granites. Granites are the basement rocks of the world, and so it would be impossible to "doctor" or "fake" these results.
According to cosmological-evolutionary theory, it took hundreds of millions of years for the granites to form, and yet these haloes are WITHIN the granites!

If you find a sunken ship off the coast of Florida, and find some gold coins, you would know that the ship could have sunk no earlier than the newest coin found there!

Likewise, if you find something within the inner structure,(or matrix), of these granites, the granites HAD to form faster than the items would have taken to disappear, or degenerate.
Radioactive elements are called isotopes, and they have an elevated energy state. It is the natural process for these isotopes to give off their excess energy and to eventually "step-down" in energy level until they are no longer radioactive.

Each different radioactive element, or isotope, has a different amount of energy stored up in its particular "elevated energy state." This means that it will take different isotopes different amounts of time to give off their excess energy. This leads to different lengths of time for each individual isotope's "half-life."
What a half-life is, is that period of time in which a given radioactive element, or isotope, needs to give off enough of its excess energy for only half of the amount of the sample to still be radioactive. The length of time for each isotope, or radioactive element, is different. Some are fast, and some are very slow, or long lasting.

Scientists have determined that in order to show that a certain radioactive element, or isotope, existed at one time, you must record its emissions of its high energy particles, the alpha particles in general, within 7 of the isotope's half-lives, or else there will not be enough high-energy particles left to emit and leave trails on or within the matrix of the matter you are using to record the decay of the isotope.

So, you have to conclude that if you find radio-haloes of radioactive elements, (isotopes), within granites, then the granites had to form faster than the 7 half-lives of fastest isotope within the sample.

What is interesting about this is that the isotope Polonium 218 has a half-life of 3 minutes. So if you find a radiohaloe of Polonium 218 within any sample of granite, that granite HAD to form within less than 21 minutes!

Now this is really interesting! The isotope Polonium 214 has a half-life of 164 microseconds,(164 x 10 to the -6 or, .000164 of ONE SECOND!!!) This means that the granites ABSOLUTELY, HAD to form in less than .001148 of ONE SECOND!

It also means that in order for the granites, the basement or foundation rocks of the planet Earth, to have formed in less than one second, that the entire Earth had to come into existence in less than one second!
 

Teddy

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people dont evolve anymore... ever since we created tools... we havnt evolved only technology has.
 

bamthedoc

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Oh? Many would disagree with that. Did you know that since Christ's time, humans average hieght has increased by more than 1'? Or that our average birth wieght has "medium"ized? How about our hands becoming larger? Our heads and brains have also increased in mass.

That's just some info I thought I'd through in.
 

a1steaksauce

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I have to say evolution because it is hard to belive that some "god" put us all here.Each side has a good fight though.Really can never be decided because theres alway going to be disagreement about this.
 
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