Crypt Fiend rush vs Night Elf

[blink_penguin]

How? I was talking about this today, and we came up with strategies to counter it with every race except the night elf. This is in a early --> medium game context.
Okay, so the undead can pull their own rush, and use the blight to their advantage - oh, and being better always helps! Humans get defending footmen and use a good 3 hero combo (thunderclap, blizzard, Flame strike) and then move up to knights (which have large armours). Orc can use grunts, they have lotsa HP, they can use WD stasis ward, they can use the TC stun and the FS lightening/wolves) and later they get TAUREN!!! Nightelf can hide in their base, heal with moonwells and mass archers, cause hunts will get slaughterd! Damn that unarmoured-ness .
So, what do you all think?

 

[Emperor Pan I]

Originally posted by blink_penguin
How? I was talking about this today, and we came up with strategies to counter it with every race except the night elf. This is in a early --> medium game context.
Okay, so the undead can pull their own rush, and use the blight to their advantage - oh, and being better always helps! Humans get defending footmen and use a good 3 hero combo (thunderclap, blizzard, Flame strike) and then move up to knights (which have large armours). Orc can use grunts, they have lotsa HP, they can use WD stasis ward, they can use the TC stun and the FS lightening/wolves) and later they get TAUREN!!! Nightelf can hide in their base, heal with moonwells and mass archers, cause hunts will get slaughterd! Damn that unarmoured-ness .
So, what do you all think?

Archers and huntresses if using focus fire, with a DH and a KOTG, with maybe 3 or 4 mountain giants can take out fiends. fiends attack to slow, and need good miro to survive that. it is especialy irritating to the undead player to have a DH with immolation run up and start chopping at the fiends. if the fiends begin to focus fire on the hnts, micro and hid. that is what the item to turn day to night is for.

 

[blink_penguin]

So youre microing? they'll be microing also, and it'll be more effeective - they can use their burrow and death coil at day adn night, making them much, much more effective in an open field (even near moonwells, the archers might not have enough health) (BTW - will immolation affect burrowed units?). You hid a huntress, he stops targeting it, then retargets it when it de-hides. He's also using micro, and burrows his fiends that are getting ffed - but he gets 10hp/s regen while burrowed (more with unholy aura)

Any other ideas?

 

[CitricAcid13]

Well, if you can hold him off 'till late game I'd say DoTC + Archers... other than that no clue (BTW Go DH)

 

[Xiode]

I think that a warden with FoN at a fairly high lvl (2 or 3), some DotT with frarie to reduce their armor, dryads for the slow/psn attack, and 1-2 MG's, but one SHOULD be enough. It all depends on how many fiends they have. Another thing, if all they have is fiends, with no gargs or anything, 3-4 chims would wipe out those fiends in one quick swipe....that is of course if you have some meat shields so they dont take damage.

 

[Swooper]

Actually hunts are perfectly capable of distroying crypt freinds. While the crypt freind damage does extra to them, you must have fotrgotten that the hunts also do extra damage to the freinds. Hunts+some archers+Warden w/ shadow strike = gg crypt feinds

 

[Xiode]

I still don't think that hunts are worth the cost.

 

[NeverGoingBack]

for 1 people hardly ever use crypts to rush and a NE player can have a full army of archers before the undead team makes it there base with crypts with addition of moonwells on auto-cast undead jsut got owned now u just need a little bit of power to counter or you can always keep massing the archers and just win with the numbers game

 

[Xiode]

I'd rather mass DotT, they cost around the same, except they have better ablities. This is my strat....

Warden with FoN and Blink
Either KotG with thorns and entangle, or PotM with trueshot and searing arrows.
2 MGs
Millions of DotT fully upgraded in crow form, if they have no air, transform back.
2 DotC for roar so that DotT do more damage.

Now all I do is keep taunting, FoN'ing, roaring, entangling....you get the picture.....there army is gone before you can say "gg".

 

[blink_penguin]

So if people hardly ever use crypt fiend rush, then I wouldn't go mass archers, I would use a nice Archer (5-6)/Huntress(6-10) strat, which is my normal. However I would also have a bunch of moonwells and 3 - 5 APs. Still, I think this strat is overpowered against NE.

BTW - yes, they both do 150% damage, and hunts have more health, but fiends have more range (easier to FF). Could be a tough call

 

[Xiode]

They do 150% damage? It depends on what units you are up against....it all has to do with armor class.

 

[blink_penguin]

yes, the armour class... thats why it s 150%... On further thought, the Hunts have a natural 1 armour (?), so they might get the advantage. To anyone else who had trouble with this, a few good strats are: DH with immolation (works well on ghouls also) and evasion - Mana burn can stop a DK from healing or a CL from bettleing. Warden w/ fan of knives or shadow strike (use on the fiends, it will be more effective and last longer) and KoTG with entangle (again, use on fiends) and treants for melee beef.

Happy undead killing!
Wait, that doesn't work...

 

[Xiode]

Ok......I don't really know how to respond to that, but yes, immolation does help on those pesky tier one units such as footies, ghouls, and archers. Treants are really melee beef either, they do shit damage and low hit points. I agree that manaburn helps, but it helps on more heros than just the ones you listed.

BTW, I thought hunts were unarmored.....

 

[blink_penguin]

FROM BLIZZARD: "Although the Huntress has the unarmored armor type, she does in fact have armor. That armor type is used for balance reasons."
Treants are so crap enemies could NOT target them, resulting in a bit of extra DPS against the fiends. Yes, it can be used on other heroes, but they aren't actually relevant to the annoyingness of this strat (cept Lich for nova/armour or DL for swarm/sleep)
BTW: error - Hunts have *TWO* armour natural

 

[chocduck9]

kill the crypt fiends by running awayand losing to your oppent

 

[NEOxx0]

lol crypt fiends so shit against mele they get torn apart in no time. Use hunts especially when upgraded for their attacks to bounce off and hit other units the crypt fiends would have no chance.

 

[Ice_Mage]

i think we just let the night elves win coz they have cool looking units :shoot

 

[NEOxx0]

Ice Mage has a point but if you lose against crypt fiends you suck they have low health and low attack there only good for aa not for rushing or anything else.

 

[blink_penguin]

Well, this took awhile, and involved raising the dead [thread], but I was just re-reading this whole thread and found that last comment rather offensive, not to mention *WRONG*. Firstly, yes I suck (check my stats).
Secondly, Fiends do not have low health. They have 550 health, more than footmen or ghouls or archers or headhunters and the same as riflemen. They have the 3d (equal) highest health in tier 1 (grunts > hunts > fiends/riflemen).
Thirdly, fiends do not have low damage. They have a long cooldown, but do insane damage (28.5avg lvl1, 39avg lvl 3). Even with the cooldown, they still have the highest dps of any tier 1 unit, except possibly glaive throwers(with first tier anyway, grunts get better with upgrades).
Fourthly, they are good against melee, believe it or not. One game vs orc (on LAN, not bnet, dont bother trying to find it) I was getting stomped late game (mass towers! grr!) when i used mass melee (ghouls and aboms) then melee with casters (all his troops were cursed, but all mine were dead!) i continually failed. Then I pulled a fiend rush (this is against orc, with melee/HH massing) and i thrashed him - he had melee, but powerful fiend FF on heroes and units killed them off no sweat.

GG, boyo, but you lose

 

[Aragorn7]

Originally posted by blink_penguin
Well, this took awhile, and involved raising the dead [thread], but I was just re-reading this whole thread and found that last comment rather offensive, not to mention *WRONG*. Firstly, yes I suck (check my stats).
Secondly, Fiends do not have low health. They have 550 health, more than footmen or ghouls or archers or headhunters and the same as riflemen. They have the 3d (equal) highest health in tier 1 (grunts > hunts > fiends/riflemen).
Thirdly, fiends do not have low damage. They have a long cooldown, but do insane damage (28.5avg lvl1, 39avg lvl 3). Even with the cooldown, they still have the highest dps of any tier 1 unit, except possibly glaive throwers(with first tier anyway, grunts get better with upgrades).
Fourthly, they are good against melee, believe it or not. One game vs orc (on LAN, not bnet, dont bother trying to find it) I was getting stomped late game (mass towers! grr!) when i used mass melee (ghouls and aboms) then melee with casters (all his troops were cursed, but all mine were dead!) i continually failed. Then I pulled a fiend rush (this is against orc, with melee/HH massing) and i thrashed him - he had melee, but powerful fiend FF on heroes and units killed them off no sweat.

GG, boyo, but you lose

You are correct, crypt fiends are very very powerful. They are much better than hunts since they do more damage to them. A player with good micro can easily keep fiends alive for long enough to FF the enemies whole army out.

Also, UD still need a small meat shield to guard fiends so they can deal out the damage. I suggest using a rod of necromancy and a hero. Maybe even a few ghouls.