REAL DISCUSSION TIME - Fast Teching, is it worth it?

[ArtOfProtoss]

Originally Posted by Hellwolf_36

Luck is for the weak, I would aim towards the second strategy.

I think people really underestimate luck in real time strategy. I think perhaps 20% of starcraft is decided by luck. If you early expand and he doesn't choose the right tech path you've got a big advantage. All the skill in the world won't let you take the expansion down.

[Chris]

Starcraft had a weird way of fast teching. Since there were no heroes and just units. Anyone could easily tech as long as they build a proper defense to thrawt off early attackers.

[ArtOfProtoss]

Originally Posted by Hellwolf_36

Starcraft had a weird way of fast teching. Since there were no heroes and just units. Anyone could easily tech as long as they build a proper defense to thrawt off early attackers.

Hehe. You are mistaken. Tis WC that is weird!

But for the tip top tech that's impossible to get until you have three bases. Well you can get it, it's just that it doesn't matter because you don't have enough of it. 4 Battlecruiser are cool. But when 30 goliath meet them they don't do so good.

[Chris]

That was why Big Game Hunters and Zero Clutter maps were invented in that game sir. In an actual game with 1500 minerals and stuff, it would be hard to tip top tech. Take that variable into consideration.

[ArtOfProtoss]

I officially coin the term "tip top tech!"

I never played WC much, so I can't really be sure of this, but I always thought its tech tree was similar to the Zerg's with the Lair and Hive. I always saw a paralell between hive and castle. But that's only from the mind of a twisted SC player so don't take me so seriously :P

[Chris]

Then again, the hatchery was your primary barracks. In a money map, you need like 10 of them or more to create your army of doom. Sometimes like 20.

[LuNa[eP]]

Originally Posted by Pan

I think your big problem here is your playing with a partner. However when you say "we" meaning there was more than one of you? as in 3-4 rt? Taht is your problem. Newbs don't know how to tech.

You tech as orc to wyverns, UD can't do shit to you in a solo match you win. 2v2, tech to necros, badass get 11 necs, 3 wagosn, 2 stats in 6 minutes. hardcore shit right there.

tech when you know how to do it. in RT games above 2 people, jsut quit life.

newbs don't know how to do anything, be it teching, rushing or CC. so if you got a noob, ur ****ed up, even if it's 2v2. it maybe easier for you to support a 2x1, but i don't think so. I find it much easier to defend a 4x3...

about the orc teching x ud, sure you can do something. if he goes blademaster, just get a dust @ your shop, place 1 nerubian tower and you're set. if the goes far seer, way easier... just kill the bitch and keep coiling ur acos. when he realizes that his rush failed, just goto his base with a rod of necromancy, 3-4 fiends and a dk, enough to kill all his burrows and *** his tech up. just keep doing this, don't let him have burrows, he's dead. fiends are deadly against orc teching as they have have a great reduction against piercing dmg; and DKs are great tankers.

as for your opinion about the RT 3v3 and 4v4...
it's your opinion, i can do nothing about it, maybe you haven't got a PC fast enough to support it, or maybe you only played with noobs... or maybe you just don't like it. i'm average skilled on 1x1, but great on 4v4/FFA, because that's what i've been playing for 3 years... RT / FFA requires diff skills from 1x1, that's it.

[Chris]

How I defeat orc to orc is simple. I load up on Grunts/Headhunters and research pillage. Then as you said, go for the burrows if the guy isnt around. If the building is getting the TP animation on it. I back up a bit outside of burrow range and attack something else to prepare for his coming. If I stayed in the base, there is a chance the tped units will spawn in a point where I get surronded and possibly killed . Most RT players are so bent on destroying burrows and Towers they don't back up. I have once taken out 2 armies of hunts in a hunt rush just because they didnt back up. I spawned right behind the hole leading to my burrows and managed to kill all thier hunts. They were stuck, trying to focus fire on my hero (which was a stupid thing cause i teched to Stronghold when they made the move and my shop was next to the hole). By the time I needed to heal my Farseer's Life. About 5-6 hunts and a hero were slain. Also, don't just go for the hero in a lfie threatening situation. Like once I had a lvl 4 archmage and this dumbass focus fires with a warden, dryads and hunts. My constitution of men was rifles and casters mosty (had breakers and morts though). So I cast invisibility just as I went near my mortors. And the warden player was so stupid, he ended up moving his men to a position where the splash damage from the morts and the rifles would do serious damage. He lost all his hunts and his warden and only escaped with one dryad. Then he was like all ur a h4xxor noob (obviously, he doesn't know how useful invisibility was) and left. He could have used Dust and killed me at that point. But, the main point is, DONT GO AFTER ONE UNIT IF YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE YOUR ARMY IN THE PROCESS.

[LuNa[eP]]

hmmm i don't see how to lose an entire army for 2 wolfs ^^ =) i told i was nuking a hero in a rush, not mig game... still with UD you must always nuke heroes, that's what they got best : coil - nova - swarm since 1.00
about the burrows part, if you forced him to TP u made him waste enough money and your rush was already successful. go creep something then strike back again on his base. Burrows medium armor allow rushes to be much more effective against them...

About the nelf going hunts dryads against rifles morts casters... noob he was : usad
and no comments about warden x archmage , he could run the 1st time he got invis, but not the second ( as noone expects a invis micro the 1st time, it's rarely seen even amongst pro players... )

[ArtOfProtoss]

Originally Posted by Hellwolf_36

Then again, the hatchery was your primary barracks. In a money map, you need like 10 of them or more to create your army of doom. Sometimes like 20.

Why do you keep referring to money maps? I think I have played them 3-4 times in my life, tops. If it's because that's where your main experience of starcraft comes from (if so I feel sorry for you ) then realize starcraft is much more advanced than money maps.

[Chris]

Because its the only map Starcraft people ever play. Its all lets stack up minerals so we can get loads of unit with no strategy served. I play the hard maps that have like 1500 minerals each field and 5000 gas. It gives you a reason to get money going and attack another bastard.

[ArtOfProtoss]

Originally Posted by Hellwolf_36

Because its the only map Starcraft people ever play. Its all lets stack up minerals so we can get loads of unit with no strategy served. I play the hard maps that have like 1500 minerals each field and 5000 gas. It gives you a reason to get money going and attack another bastard.

The first thing about SC any even average player has to learn is never to play "pubbies;" players who create and join public games. To be good you must either game on west channels like op hyo- (I know about 20) or join a ladder like PGT. There you will find endless competition at any time of the day.

[LuNa[eP]]

damn, this is wc3 discussion, not SC...

[Ntrik_]

AoP, stay on topic plz,

so.. where did you leave off at?

Fast tech.... is necessary, but requires some teamwork to pul lit off

[TrongaMonga]

Hellwolf, if there was a way to stack mines and trees in a place, you can be quite sure most people would start playing those instead of normal, and it wouldn't differ from SC for any reason.

Now let's continue the topic at hand:

When I do play the game (not that often), I never fast tech. It's something about WC, you die fast if you make no troops.

[Icedragon]

the thing in FFA is that if you do harass and your orc you would be dumb to not have pillage not only do you weaken one of your enemies you get cash for doing it however you also leave your self wide open while attacking that player as you wont have many unit left at your base

vs the computer i try to fast tech but on b.net i am a much slower techer i take my time mass my teir 1 and 2 units get heros lvled up

[Emperor Pan I]

Originally Posted by TrongaMonga

Hellwolf, if there was a way to stack mines and trees in a place, you can be quite sure most people would start playing those instead of normal, and it wouldn't differ from SC for any reason.

Now let's continue the topic at hand:

When I do play the game (not that often), I never fast tech. It's something about WC, you die fast if you make no troops.

Except even if you could, it would not affect real gamepaly. There are people who play "no limit, huge mine" yadda yadda in custom, but ladder is predefined maps. Unlike SC, Blizzard though aobut how a real ladder system should work.

[LuNa[eP]]

hmmm
fast teching requires fast scouting
a well done orc tech, for example, with fs and a fast naga witch, can hold some several minutes with some towers / burrows even under constant attack, so you can get your wyv / raiders or even teching up to tauren.
fast teching relies TOO much on harassing, it's a must.

[None293823]

offtopic- stop disussing SC in warcraft forums. Yeah i still like SC but it's not the place.

For FFA always fast teh, for solo and team you can still win with tier 2 ir tier 1 depends on the races.

[Lizardbreath]

Sadly people fast tech alot because they think they are gosu...they tower up and think they can win by harrassing with a hero...I just laugh at them. I bring seige and my army and rape their base....it's a piece of cake...it only works well in team games.