UD vs HU prob

[Nissenoll]

I play undead and have serious problems vs human players now adays. I ask for advice, something that can help me in this awful matchup (imo) everything get wrong vs human... BTW I play on northrend if that matters.

[Ntrik_]

Ghoul rush with DK, and just keep on sendng fiends and ghouls, it worked for me in Azeroth, with some micro.

[thebastardsword]

1) Most important, DO NOT LET THEM EXPAND
2) Ghoul rush, and as edd said, keep sending units, eventually, send meat wagons and destory their production
3) expand
4)Send Destroyers ESPECIALLY later in the game.

mainly, humans have to tech a lot to get things they want(spell breaker needs arcane vault AND another building to research) which all cost money. So if you can stop them from expanding and occasionally hit their gold supply, you should be able to stall long enough to expand and maybe build a few destroyers.

[Nissenoll]

another problem I've encountered... is when they get gryphons, maybe I've been to lazy and not pushed much enough but are there any good counters vs those gryphons who terminates all ground forces together with some rifles that kills any threat from above?

[thebastardsword]

you should hit human players much more often with ghoul rushes or something, if they tech that fast and u dont have anything ur screwed!@

[Ntrik_]

Originally Posted by thebastardsword

1) Most important, DO NOT LET THEM EXPAND
2) Ghoul rush, and as edd said, keep sending units, eventually, send meat wagons and destory their production
3) expand
4)Send Destroyers ESPECIALLY later in the game.

mainly, humans have to tech a lot to get things they want(spell breaker needs arcane vault AND another building to research) which all cost money. So if you can stop them from expanding and occasionally hit their gold supply, you should be able to stall long enough to expand and maybe build a few destroyers.

muhahah Im N_

gryphons? go gargs

and use fiends to web down hawks first, and get lich to nova on gryphons.

[thebastardsword]

Originally Posted by N_Edd

muhahah Im N_

gryphons? go gargs

and use fiends to web down hawks first, and get lich to nova on gryphons.

first...WTF!?

now, also, you should try using the ghost things..*crap cant remember their name* and make sure u watch their base like a hawk.

[Nissenoll]

hmm shade... why has that never occured to me...

[*Turok]

first of all any human pro can counter a rush especially if hes encounterd it from before ... and anyhow who would spend the 150+ lumber for the sacrificial pit... u need to go aboms tech .and get your cryptlord asap... and no matter what happens u need ghoul frenzy and an orb of corruption for the lich........remeber... at lvl 3 deathknight try harrassing the human with him along with the lich lvl one... and remeber to carry with the lich a staff of teleportation ... cuz the deathknight can run... and if not just tp... ive tried it so many times.. and humans.. go do not get sorceresses before priest..its the opposite ... anyhow..just start coil+nova any hurt unit..then go for the rifles......

[TheoStormhawk]

I think is easy to defeat HUMAN with UNDEAD. When I play undead I start with Death Knight, fiends and i use rod of necromancy for melee (mostly just to keep the enemy as much as possible to get to the fiends), after this oblivian statue and Lich and the rest is obvius.I can't believe you are afraid of gryphons.Use destroyers against them (gryphoon magic hammer becomes useless), or you can use gargoyls who reign in air combat.Remember HUMAN cannot rush UNDEAD easily.

[Ntrik_]

Originally Posted by TheoStormhawk

I think is easy to defeat HUMAN with UNDEAD. When I play undead I start with Death Knight, fiends and i use rod of necromancy for melee (mostly just to keep the enemy as much as possible to get to the fiends), after this oblivian statue and Lich and the rest is obvius.I can't believe you are afraid of gryphons.Use destroyers against them (gryphoon magic hammer becomes useless), or you can use gargoyls who reign in air combat.Remember HUMAN cannot rush UNDEAD easily.

they cant indeed, ghouls can stomp footies with death coil and number, Crypt Fiends can stomp over footmen and rifles in all aspects, tier 1 in UD vs HU is like HU creeping + survival almost, HU without tower would be destined to die...

I spoke teh truth :wavey I hopess

[Emperor Pan I]

Originally Posted by NtRik_

they cant indeed, ghouls can stomp footies with death coil and number, Crypt Fiends can stomp over footmen and rifles in all aspects, tier 1 in UD vs HU is like HU creeping + survival almost, HU without tower would be destined to die...

I spoke teh truth :wavey I hopess

The AM has water elements which completely romp both Ghouls and Fiends. footmen beat fielnds, as do Rifles.

Rifles alone can beat ghouls. Hu has the matchup. and if he gets gryphons, your done gargs do nothing with either tank, gyro, rifle, hawk support.

[Ntrik_]

Originally Posted by Pan

The AM has water elements which completely romp both Ghouls and Fiends. footmen beat fielnds, as do Rifles.

Rifles alone can beat ghouls. Hu has the matchup. and if he gets gryphons, your done gargs do nothing with either tank, gyro, rifle, hawk support.

death coil in the beginning = secks,

fiends > rifles,

[Emperor Pan I]

Originally Posted by NtRik_

death coil in the beginning = secks,

Death coil heals 200 hp, and deals 100 damage. It is therefore useless on the offense really, and ghouls have 350 hp, so a red hp ghoul will barely go up to green.

Humans have the AM, water elementals I would switch with coil any day of the week. Freaking things will destroy undead, coil healing or not.

fiends > rifles,

Fiends are garbage. They are large, and suck greatly. Rifles are slimmer and have better range. Rifles don't trip over each other to attack like fiends.

[TheoStormhawk]

How can you compare AM with DK , you say about coil that heals 200 and 100 damage , but your water element level 1 isn't much of a unit it is just a unit more , not to say that coil level 3 kills a few units instantly (like elf archers for example) i like to see your water thing doing that , when he gets to be level 3 in front of a real good player he is beggining to have major dispeling problems( priests, driads, shamans, etc.). I don't want to say that AM is not a good hero , actually i think he is very good but he can not be compared with a full option hero like DK, and also i think that the need to use AM at human start for most players is because of the Palladin major speed movement disability and no direct assault abilities at start.
Regarding the fiends may be yours trip one after another,their only disadvantage is slow attack speed and because of this the rifle is better then fiend but the fiend has statue and Unholy Aura and if you are really good UNHOLY FRENZY , have you ever saw what a few fiends with unholy frenzy can do?

[Chris]

Yes, lose 4 Hp per second and easily die if not placed on blight ot constantly healed by Obsidian Stats. In the beginning, rush with Ghouls and a hero. If you get Death Knight, you can heal the ghouls or sacrifice them for life (I do this sometimes). If you get Dreadlord, you can sleep the hero and surrond him with ghoul attack. The only threat here is with AoE spells frying your ghouls into nothingness.

Later, you may want to consider even the little things like micro and AoA (Angle of attacking) into play. For instance, there is a difference between using ghouls and aboms to attack footmen and knights head on, then striking them on the side or even from behind.

As for ranged units, you still need meat to keep them from being massacred from long range artillery (especially mortars). That is why melee was invented, well at least aboms hehe. Plus, start using spells like Impale and Sleep to stop channels. Like if an archmage is getting away via Mass Teleport, hit him! He won't get the spell back in time and his men may die in the process.

If its team battles, cooperate with your teammate and stay behind the meat, still supporting them. Otherwise, he will lose lots of men to militia in the earlygoings, forcing you to retreat when you could have taken some men down. If you kill all the militia in the rush, you practically won .

This is how I think of it, but I could be wrong

[None293823]

All buffs like unholy frenzy or curse are just plus for humans. Some breakers and using such spells will be bad for the undead.

As for fiends, some of you use fiends vs humans. In northrend this is rather a mistake when the human counters with blizzard and clap with footmen or knights with casters (sometimes mortars). No matter how good micro you have pure fiends strat vs humans is useless. They add aboms with fiends and that's another story. Based on my experience vs UD and replays of UD (64AMD.Winner) and sometimes trying to play UD like that, I can give the following strat:

DK harass with rod, ghouls -creeping while harassing with DK, attack human peasasnts with ghouls and at the same time fast tech. Quickly get aboms and a few dests. Now you should have 4-5 fiends with upgrade does the game take too long and he gets gryphs.

[TheoStormhawk]

The human spellbreakers are the problem here, but guys , they don't touch unholy frenzy , and I think it is true that frenzy could be bad for fiends but they have statue and unholy aura and that small mobile blight thing (sorry i don't recall the name).
I thought I made myself clear about my strategy , I like fiends , but i don't use them forever they are no match for gryphons, and in truth I would be more afraid of knights against my fiends.
Ok if he has gryphons i will use a couple of destroyers to get the inner fire of and to attack with a few gargoyls and than I use unholy frenzy for a true unit that is Frost Wimp, that cold damage is like a permanent frost nova, without scroll none will survive.
I use 1 or 2 abo just to keep ground units busy , and of course (no offense Mystic) I'm not that stupid when I see Spellbreakers to allow casting curse or other " buffs".
In front of a good player an army of gryphons I think it's impossible.
And if someone wants to see masters of maneuvering fiends I reccomend the last year 1v1 world finals replays.

[Chris]

They can manually cast it, you know. The reason it doesn't get cast is because the Spell Steal Proirity is 0. You are wrong on the Gryphon > Fiends, it depends on the amount of fiends, thier armor lvl, and if obsidian stats are healing them. I once defeated 9 Gryhpons with nothing but 20 fiends 3 stats dk and a pit lord. You can use hit and run with fiends to make the effective, I use it a lot to piss off hunts or early units. Then you would probably have less units to worry bout when they get to your base, cause you either weakened some, or killed some.

[LuNa[eP]]

HUMAN > UD
ever.

and WTF you say that LVL 3 elementals cannot compare to lvl 3 coil? IT isn't really nice to have 3 big watery shit dealing 50 dmg and tanking like hell. unless you got loads of destros to dispel them, but if you did, you got raped by tankz + gyros + rifles by any decent player.