seriously

[Ntrik_]

Originally Posted by Pan

except slow just slows u down, fariefire gives enemy vision and -4 armor.

lets see,
slow
Cost:50 Mana
Length:60 seconds (10 on heros)
effects:Reduces speed by 60% and attack speed by 25%.

farie fire
costs: 45 Mana
length: 120 seconds
effects: reduces 4 armor, gives vision of the enemy

Farie fire costs less, lasts twice as long, and is more effective overall, because -4 armor allows for 121.93% damage increase.

Human without slow is completely useless.

[Emperor Pan I]

Originally Posted by N_Edd

Human without slow is completely useless.

untrue, i have seen humans played to great effect without the use of slow

[QuikSilver]

about UD casters...how could NE counter necro wagon?!? they have no AOE dispell...dryads cant possibly keep up can they? I dont play NE...i was just wondering!

[Emperor Pan I]

Originally Posted by quiksilver87

about UD casters...how could NE counter necro wagon?!? they have no AOE dispell...dryads cant possibly keep up can they? I dont play NE...i was just wondering!

wisps

tier 1 aoe dispel

[Static]

back when i was somewhat decent I would use casters from time to time. If i was feeling spicy and expanding good, a rarity, i would get some banshees for heavy control. Take a mountain Gaint or some bears. A MG is good to take when they are in the middle of their army. Good meat sheilds.

But all and all Casters are rarely used for UD outside Necros and statues.

[QuikSilver]

wisps

tier 1 aoe dispel

woops...i totally forgot about that...

[Ntrik_]

or chims, or 3 mgs and hunts,

or warden

maybe immo DH, but meh, never tried that, but Im sure rush or harass can stop/delay necrowagoin.

[None293823]

Not only necrowagon. If UD makes first hero CL with rod and beetles wisps counter it completely.

[Dream_Walker]

cursed undead... i hate them! granted no one uses the undead casters... banshees would counter a group of dotts, and necros would counter say a group of maybe bears...IF PEOPLE USED THE SPELLS AND NOT GO FOR DMG 24/7, bnet might be a challenge.... look at it this way....

banshee has the anti magic shell, which would disable dotts from attacking any air units you have, granted you actually cast it on the air unit.

necros would run around with meat wagons behind them; cripple the bears to make them slow, and ta da, create an army of skeletons. not that hard to counter it. and if all else fails with the banshees, POSSESS THEM! (granted they arent dead)

[AHappyChineseBoy]

wisps, costing 60 gold can dispel skellies and take out mana. ta da, that army of skeletons is gone. You can't rely on banshees without some kind of meat like ghouls or a lot of aboms to possess because theyll die to easy. Dryads, can dispell the AMS that you worked so hard to put up. Curse, unholy frenzy are the only useful spells in the undead arsenal.

[-Azrael666-]

I don't think there's anyone who plays UD for the spellcasting anyways

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Pan

in a real game who actualy thinks ud players can use casters? Im not saying thier too weak, or anything along those lines, but u just can't get them like humans and orcs can. who wants to debate with me?

The only thing people do are summons skeletons and possess other units. That is about all that is done, not many people I have seen use cripple or anti magic shell!

[Emperor Pan I]

Originally Posted by Hellwolf_36

The only thing people do are summons skeletons and possess other units. That is about all that is done, not many people I have seen use cripple or anti magic shell!

Skeletons are only useful when they are a surprise. Anybody with anticasters, say "gg ud noob. you went casters instead of using the only units that work with ud". Skeletons I won't lie are good i excess, small numbers, or agaisnt any caster they are useless. They work only with wagons, becasue only large nubmers really help.
Cripple costs 150 mana. which means, to ****ing much for what it does. And when i hear ppl say "oh but UF is so much better than bloodlust Ud noob" I wanna scream. Bloodlust is statisticly worse, but it is on a cheaper, stronger more effective unit. It is also autocast, and doesn't steal your units HP. Uf is a waste, and not worth the money spent on the caster.

first off, possess is terrible. Anybody with half a brain and no hands could micro enough not to get units possessed. Banshees are the lowest hp casters, plus they get a damage bonus while possessing. AMS is purely situational, and even then it isnt worth building banshees.

Undead casters also take a huge time to make, because ud lacks in good units. Ud players dont want to stop at tier 2, because if thier not the first ones to T3, we are screwed. Ud has the worst tier 1 and 2, and is on-par with the other race's tier 3. Stopping at tier 2 is ridicuolos, and going back for casters at tier 3 is a waste of time.

[Chris]

So is Cripple. It keeps noobs with chims from being of a real threat. Cripple helps you defeat the annoying units like t3 air or powerhouses. But, watch who you cast it on as human. IF you see Spell Breakers, they can manual spell steal Cripple and give it to a random person on your team.

Originally Posted by pan

Uf is a waste, and not worth the money spent on the caster.

depends on who you cast it on. If it was like a hero or a Goblin Alchemist, then it would be good to have. Other units that depends if you can keep them constantly healed.

[Lizardbreath]

Originally Posted by Pan

Think about this very carefuly. the undead armys peak of power is at tier 3. 2 buildings supply the army with sufficient "counters" to almost anything.
I always here about how undead never gets casters cause undead players say they suck and all htis.

But when it comes down to it, You cannot seriously get casters, and still be able to get any other army in enough time. Undead casters are the most expensive and for a necro to be half decent he needs all 4 of his upgrades, statues for mana, meatwagons with exhume. In a serious game with other units involved, that cannot happen. Which is one major flaw i see in the undead army. the heros are way to powerful, and the units are garbage. only reason undead survives is its heros.

-You have an interesting argument there; you are right it is close to impossible for UD to switch armies if they just went casters. This;however, depends on if you are playing solo or team games. If you are playing team games like 3v3 or 4v4 or even 2v2. The UD casters can win you games. It also depends on the amount of skill of the player. Most people who play UD casters just go necroes and only use skellies. Cripple can be deadly in team games. Cripple heroes/heavy melee and you have a higher chance of winning. Include stats to heal and banshees with curse/anti-magic shield an you can probably increase your chances of winning by alot in a team game. But going solo with just casters for UD is just noob. It isn't what they are used for. They are used for support.

[Chris]

Curse is a losing cause against humans. Not only they can dispel its harmful effects, but the breakers can change the flow and curse one of your own units.

[LuNa[eP]]

Pan
Undeads have one of the best initiate spells of the game, called CURSE.
UNDERUSED - TOTALLY.
4 banshees can curse a whole army, and that means that all you army will have an "evasion" rate bigger than a LVL 10 demon hunter. GOOD ENOUGH?
NO? so, there it goes: AMS. there goes your DK, walking freely between their MK + PALLY combo, or mass frosts / chims / gryphons. AMS make mass tier 3 air useless against any army. GOOD ENOUGH? OMG!?
So, you have possession. I'm no telling you to mass banshees.. this is just like a last resort. But possessing like i say, 2 enemy casters, or 2 taurens, or even only their mellee, turn tides, man. it turn tides.

heh, just don't use curse / ams against spell breakers, it's teh *** :ufo

[Emperor Pan I]

Originally Posted by LuNa[eP]

Pan
Undeads have one of the best initiate spells of the game, called CURSE.
UNDERUSED - TOTALLY.
4 banshees can curse a whole army, and that means that all you army will have an "evasion" rate bigger than a LVL 10 demon hunter. GOOD ENOUGH?
NO? so, there it goes: AMS. there goes your DK, walking freely between their MK + PALLY combo, or mass frosts / chims / gryphons. AMS make mass tier 3 air useless against any army. GOOD ENOUGH? OMG!?
So, you have possession. I'm no telling you to mass banshees.. this is just like a last resort. But possessing like i say, 2 enemy casters, or 2 taurens, or even only their mellee, turn tides, man. it turn tides.

heh, just don't use curse / ams against spell breakers, it's teh *** :ufo

personaly, FF is better, but i agree curse is a great spell. I will repeat my arguement,

Undead casters also take a huge time to make, because ud lacks in good units. Ud players dont want to stop at tier 2, because if thier not the first ones to T3, we are screwed. Ud has the worst tier 1 and 2, and is on-par with the other race's tier 3. Stopping at tier 2 is ridicuolos, and going back for casters at tier 3 is a waste of time.

AMS is also not worth it,it is a terrible adept spell. but with banshee buff, Curse may be more used.

[LuNa[eP]]

FF is a great spell, totally agreed. And i agree that NE casters are just OMFGWTFBBQ, elf is teh imbaness.
cyclone is completely underused, like curse. cyclone wins matches, man it really does.

But you said something i dont agree... Ud have a reasonable tier 1 and the best non-caster unit at tier 2 ( gargs ). ghouls gargs with dk dl and a fast expo just owns much things on this game. I agree that @ tier 3, ghouls get completely insane, destroyers give the anti caster edge and so on, but you can't understimate the UD early rushing ability like that IMO