Why does everyone think UD is useless against ORC or ORC useless UD when theyre same?

[SharpSho0ter.]

:fencing Why does everyone think that? its so not true.

[RageWinterchill]

Undead is pretty bad against Orc (DAMMIT, IT HURTS TO SAY THAT!!!). It's one of the game's only two truly imbalanced matchups, this one in favor of Orc.

With the immense anti-low HP abilities of the Orcs, they wipe out almost anything UD can do on the ground. By now, just about every player knows that the Horde doesn't like enemy air. So the UD tries to go air, but he's got two options. One is Gargoyles. Though their focus fire isn't TOO shabby, it's hardly enough against mass casters (primary Orc strategy). Plus, it's hardly enough against Wyverns, because Wyverns never come alone. They at least come with Shamans, and Purged Gargs vs BL'd Wyverns has to be the most disgusting matchup I've seen in a while. Ok, let's change units. Frost Wyrms. Admittedly, I've seen Orc players get grinded into the dust (or snow, whatever) by a UD player being able to cunningly mass these monsters behind their backs and then suddenly turn around and unleash them. I believe there's a replay by ReX.JYoung doing that, but I've never actually seen it. However, the truth is most games just don't last long enough for the Undead player to pull off such a stunt. And Orcs have some damn good scouting, and they love (ab)using it. Ok, let's change tactics.

Back to the ground. Ghouls are the worst possible unit an Undead player could bring into play against an Orc. Ghouls are not a real match against Grunts until they have Ghoul Frenzy (where they pretty much beat them down), and by then the Orc tends to have decently leveled heroes. And we all know how much damage low HP units take from Shockwave/CL. Anti-HMC tactics don't seem to be of any use against OMC (perhaps because OMC mostly relies on buffs rather than debuffs), so that usually rules out Aboms as well. Fiends? Fiends are good against Orcs up to the late-mid game, where they rapidly fall apart.

As an Undead player, I'm thinking the answer to my problem lies in casters and heroes, but I haven't found a winning combination yet (but I will... mark my words, Orcs... I will... MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!)

[SharpSho0ter.]

But but but but but..... considering this. lets say the orc DOES NOT go casters and goes wyvren or tauren? theres ur problem rite there the UD goes crypties and guess what? ur ****ed.
or lets say the ud goes casters and the orc goes casters. necros summon and banshees posess. I think theyre balanced. all u need is a good micro-managment

[RageWinterchill]

Orc rarely does NOT go casters, and THAT'S the problem. If they didn't get their bloody casters, I wouldn't have any problems, cuz Fiends can do a good number on just about anything else they have. Fiends/Necros would make very short work of them.

And that's the problem. Those damn casters. I've NEVER seen an Orc not go casters unless he was a rookie.

[SharpSho0ter.]

You agree tho, if Ud had casters and a few ghouls or so and the Orc had casters *seemings they only go casters and no melee backup that ive seen* its a balanced if not unfair fight in the UD's Favor?

[RageWinterchill]

Concerning casters vs casters, armies tend to be evenly matched in terms of size and strength. Thus, the only deciding factor left is the heroes.

The Orc heroes are terrifying to low HP units. The BM was born to slaughter anything that has low HP, even heroes. The TC's Shockwave is one of the game's nastiest AoE attacks. The FS is equally nasty, except his is fire and forget... Unfortunately. In addition, the Endurance Aura allows them to attack faster. Throw in Bloodlust and you're looking at one crazy army.

Undead has the best AoE spell in Frost Nova. But the sad thing is it isn't working. Why? Mostly because of Healing Wards. The HW's replace the damage quite quickly, and the damage the casters put out is often enough to handle Ghouls or Fiends or Aboms. Stasis Traps are a nightmare to Ghouls, even with WoN backup. The Undead player is often finding himself consuming Healing Scrolls far faster than he has money for. Scrolls of Protection offer little comfort because the heaviest damage taken is always from AoE spells. Going DL/Lich for additional AoE damage capabilities is not an option, as both heroes go down quickly without DK support, and the DK does not offer much in the way of AoE handling, though his abilities at hero sniping cannot be doubted. Without any effective means of protecting their heroes from nukes or healing them immediately after one, the Orc heroes are usually in trouble from him, but their units (unfortunately) do not.

Caster-wise, Orcs have a very effective anti-mass spell in Stasis Trap. Most Undead players are smart enough to keep a WoN or two (preferably the latter) on them at all times, to remove the annoying Traps, but the charges are often entirely spent after a few seconds of battle, what with BL, Lightning Shields, HWs and Stasis Traps flying around, unless the UD player is like me and is being extremely miserly with his WoN charges. Plus, their DPS goes nuts with BL, and they can easily heal damage from other casters with HW.

Undead casters are pretty strong, but the Necros' Skellies are more often than not a joke to the Orcs, even more so than the Ghouls. With level 3 Shockwave, the Orcs no longer require WoNs to handle Skellies, as a single Shockwave would knock over an entire legion, and granting huge experience to the heroes. Curse could be an option (Curse is highly underestimated by the Warcraft 3 community), but maybe not AMS. Cripple on the heroes is a possible, and maybe even on some important units. Unholy Frenzy works when used on Fiends, as it sends their DPS off the charts, but the Fiends themselves go downhill past late-mid game. Possessing Taurens is one thing, but Possessing casters is different. Capturing Witch Doctors might help, as the Healing Wards and Stasis Traps could be nasty surprises for an Orc player, but hasn't happened for me very often. One of the few times when I curse the 1-second delay for Possession.

[RageWinterchill]

You agree tho, if Ud had casters and a few ghouls or so and the Orc had casters *seemings they only go casters and no melee backup that ive seen* its a balanced if not unfair fight in the UD's Favor?

Not really. The Orc heroes are the deciding factor in that one, and the sheer damage they put out is often far more than UD's low HP ground units can handle. OMC/FS/TC is usually more than what UD can handle.

[SharpSho0ter.]

Well, you made a believer out of me, never thought of it that way.
Btw, i dont understand half the stuff u say. lol like won ams ect.

[RageWinterchill]

Heh, sorry if I confused you with those terms. Here's a quick list of definitions.

AMS = Anti-Magic Shell (Banshee Adept spell)
DPS = Damage Per Second
WoN = Wand of Negation (buyable item that basically casts Dispel)
HP = Hit Points
OMC = Orc Mass Casters
HMC = Human Mass Casters
FS = Farseer
TC = Tauren Chieftain
BM = Blademaster
CL = Chain Lightning
BL = Bloodlust
HW = Healing Ward

That about covers it. Hope it helps you understand my points better.

[SharpSho0ter.]

O.o.O thanks lol ur rite about all that stuff, id like to see a replay of you doing undead, btw rage winterchill is a Lich name i got that unit today. seeya

[x42bn6]

What also really hurts Orc is the fact that Grunts have so damn much health, so Frenzy will still take ages to do so. And then Bloodlust doesn't help things at all for the Undead. And remember that Grunts still deal more damage at the start, so a bad luck person with Undead will more than likely get torn apart.

Also, the TC has far too much health to take down properly, despite its speed limitations, the FS is a deadly early Ghoul ripper, and the BM is far too fast for the Ghouls to attack it properly. Add Healing Wards and you have something Vampiric Aura has competition.

[SharpSho0ter.]

Trhe is that. I know a guy on B.Net named PurgeMe ive awalys seen him rip orc apart as UD. I personally have big problems with UD because i play on the 1v1 plunder isle map alot.
I awalys tech... then wait for my second hero and creep.
My problem is the damn UD creep everything b4 i can, or when i go to creep it they are there and kill my heros if i dont get away fast enough, im just awalys unlucky against them, seems when i mass casters, takes 1 skeleton raise and im screwd, guess theres something im not doing? write me back, thanks.

[thebastardsword]

what seems to work for me is....GET THAT BANSHEE'S POSESS!!!....after that happens, ill go and try to crush an expansion so i can posess a peon...and then i build stuff to counter orcs

[SharpSho0ter.]

Eh, This isnt starcraft... lol.

[RageWinterchill]

You CAN do that, but the sad truth is that the Orc simply will not allow that. Possessing Witch Doctors and Taurens is about the best you can hope for, unless you decide to get a TC as your Orc hero. Could work if you happen to get the TC to a decent level. Frost Nova is hands down the game's best non-Ultimate spell, and Shockwave also ranks up there as an anti-mass unit. Plus, Ghouls with Endurance Aura are pretty damn crazy (I have first-hand experience from both sides of the story).

Again, unlikely, but it'd be nice.

[SharpSho0ter.]

Rage, post me a replay sometime. You sound like a great player and it seems since your named after a lich your a UD player.
I dont see many good UD players that i dont kill, post me a replay.

[x42bn6]

Yeah, unlikely. Even worse are Ghouls with Dual aura and Endurance Aura and Bloodlust.

[SharpSho0ter.]

Holy Mackeral, doesnt B.Net put a limit on the speed of units attacking, like they do with the speed of humans running? get back to me on that

[RageWinterchill]

Nope. There's a cap on speed (400 movement. Ghouls with Ghoul Frenzy and Unholy Aura level 2 hit the cap), but there is no limit as to how fast you can attack. Ever played Hero Arena? A BM spamming Agility Tomes is pretty much the craziest thing ever...

I HAD a replay up here once, before the forums got hacked... I'll post up another one when I get back to playing. Thanks for the compliment though :o

[SharpSho0ter.]

Well Shiz, only 1 problem with posessing a peon, a smart orc player wont allow that, theyll hardly allow you to have your own workers, but thats just a good orc player.