ud diserves mass towers vs hu

[None293823]

Ok i decided to start the ud thread. Hu vs UD is so ****ty matchup.

I dont remember seeing a win hu vs ud without expo since a year ago. I play a lot, ive played vs many good ud players, yet, i lose from lower skilled. It isn't only me. But human without expo can do nothing. The cases when no expo are: when you micro enough, you still lose, the ud always wins, you make a long game, you might kill some dests and then he gets another. You might say he's gg cause you made him lose a lot of ghouls and dests, then he makes them again and gg. I havent seen anything like that vs other race.

The thing that makes us win is expo and many towers. Ive tried 5 a base, too few towers. And there is one thing that we lose even with an expo- you slower yourself with expo and towers, he gets fast dests and before you have eniugh fm he comes, you have footmen and just have the 1st knight, few fm, he kills them then you cant kill the dests, gg.

Or another thing, you have enough fm ,start chasing the dests, but even with micro and sometimes EVEN with miliria to help, ghouls own a knight with foots and some militia. Also hit&run, ghouls with frenzy kill your workers no matter how you move them and bye he tps .

There might be a stupid case where you cant let him mass wyrms, you shiudlnt let him do so. Now let's talk about the less skilled abuses:

1) I used to have once, but havent been 'tested' with much better skill than 1.5 years ago, anyway 2 rax ghouls, FL1st and mass skele.
2) mass fiends with CL and mass summon, he enters your base and if you have less foots and BTW what can foots do vs fiends and scarabs ? We're talking about tier1 to tier 2. Like you need towers.
3) newbish and this is typical for gw map to make fiends and wyrms. Thats newbish and is used by naps so this is as i said - you cant let him do this.
4) mass finds, dests, mass possess when you cant use griff because of web, knights get possessed. Im blamed by some good players why do i let him make master training, well - when the ud base cannot be finished early like vs 3 races, if you are forced to retreat, it happens that they make.
5)fiends and aboms is funny and thats a matter of how you let him do. But really, what a humiliation to lose from microless noobs who only abuse one of these and turn the game. Imagine someone losing many fiends, abom, then with 3-4 banshees before you kill them, he gets knights, becomes greater food and gg. I have an idea - possess must be dispelled or to be made so. This is so imba... Ok this is smth i havent faced lately but who knows. These are abuses.

When you expo, you gotta make mass towers and eventually if he doesnt have expo and you lead in resources you can kill ud. ud with expo > hu with expo, always mass expands as in lt thats the way. But my winning to losing ratio vs ud is prolly 1:7

You can ignore the newbish 1-5) ways of winning, for me it is more like losing without expo, i said how, losing with expo when he gets dests and i dont have enough fm, he's in the base he kills all newly created fm-s thats how, and if i had like 7 towers in the base that might win it while i make fms somewhere away.

[Emperor Pan I]

if you are complaining about Destros, or letting him get wyrms, what the hell? Let him get mass air, better for you. Humans have this amazing building where they make tanks with fortified armor, that does multiple target piercing damage to air units. This same building also builds cheaper than a peasent one food mechanical (no Nova or coil or magiccan work on them) flying units that do piercing damage to air units. just a thought.

[None293823]

Im not talking about getting dests at all, you see i always get outplayed with micro, when i dont lose much vs someone who loses and then regains the high food number. It's about the timing, how they come before im ready, whether tanks or gyro doesnt matter much. Ok maybe. I'll show few reps vs ud in which it isnt 'i lost my units in one battle' loss.

[Emperor Pan I]

post replays please.

[Chris]

Yeah but you need a large number of tanks to pull it off. Even with Imbued Gunpowder, thier damage to air is only about 20-25 damage.

I have that same bloody problem with Orc and especially NE. I find harassing a base's acols not hard for my FS. Because if they get one nerub tower, the noob wont swap targets so my army is slowed. If he doesn't, I have 2 units that are unfrozen and have no attack hamperings.

Possession for me isn't really a problem. I can net the Banshees while they are casting. I may also use Demos and ff on them (they take more damage in possession mode, and thier unarmored doesnt help them either). TC's War stomp also helps.

For human, you can mort them with frag shards and reduce them to a spiritual mess. Or poly them during the channel stage. Even if the dest dispels it, its better to have a de-buff removed than to have a unit be turned against you.

My main problem is the heroes. Death Knight just runs too fast for me to do something about it. And the fiends are the same idea as long as a Level 2 DK is near. The Lich just slows my army to a point where the DK is getting free kills. If they had no Lich or the lich was undermanaed, UD is a snap. Besides, most UD douchebags do the same thing:

Dk -> Fiends -> Lich -> Stats -> Dests -> Maybe Wyrms

They feel just because they have Unholy Armor and a Hero that has a movespeed over 300 with auras they can get away with free wins. However, I got three friends on my side to kill those bothersome pests.

Tauren Chieftan - Raiders - Scroll of Speed.

The TC alone can make the Stats and DK's mana a living nightmare to themselves. IF you use shockwave for instance, (assume its level 3). It does 200 damage to 12 units. If there are too many damagged units, the death knight would be working overtime saving his own units instead of coiling mine.

Raiders can just stop micro period. If I am lucky, surround that fag knight. Also, fiends cannot hide underground.

And Speed Scroll just allows me to swarm the fiends. Until the dests eat it that is.

Fighting Human with UD is a problem in itself. Mostly because the power of casters is negated by destroyers. And Human is the most caster dependant race compared to the other 3. I don't really know how to help you either because I really suck with Human and UD myself. I just play Orc and NE and know how to counter the units of all 4 races.

[Emperor Pan I]

Originally Posted by Chris

Yeah but you need a large number of tanks to pull it off. Even with Imbued Gunpowder, thier damage to air is only about 20-25 damage.

It takes 4 siege tanks approximately 59 seconds to kill 9 destroyers with 400/400 mana, losing 3 tanks in the process.
It takes 4 siege tanks approximately 41 seconds to kill 7 destroyers with 400/400 mana, losing no tanks.

You are talking about a unit, in this case a tank which can attack up to 9 units at once, so all 9 destroyers are hit in one attack, dealing piercing damage at around 25(31) damage.

Also think of it like this. Tanks = 3 food, destro = 5. For every 2 destroyers, you could support 3 tanks. 5 destroyers to 8 tanks.

Then look at it like this, each destroyer costs around 275 gold and 225 wood. A siege engine costs 190 gold and 60 wood. I mean the only thing that makes it harder for the siege tank is being a longer build time by 10 seconds, thats about it.

[None293823]

Chris, orc is gg ud. Just use ensnare by all means + they get wind riders oO.

Mike, I dont like tanks when im not going directly into the undead base to finish somone who is 100% losing. But tanks can be better when you dont have enough time to make enough fm.

The problem for me is they either make dests faster, or if they attack me before i have enough fm with the dests, im gg, or when i kill dests, it happens that they start making aboms and a high lvl dk and lich nuke my hero before i have time to teleport or do anything, then it's going gg. => I counter but in the end, i always fail to win and lose the battles, always in the end, thats what hapens and thats the whole thing in short, unless i dont have enough fm. Or when i kill the dests i cant beat the ghouls with foots and few knights since they attack very shor time after you reach tier 3. Ok maybe i should show some replays of a typical loss.

Here's one long game (158k) errm to show how it is imba, im sorry about some ridiculous moments, in my games vs ud im ridiculous. I neednt tell you why i used several sorc and btw see how, ok i didnt micro well but just see how EVERY battle i had to retreat, in the end he just prolly lost nothing, i think he gave up rofl or thought i had a 2nd expo, map : tr . I was losing and I would have lost, tell me isnt that a dumbass who quit when winning. Also check out how he was very lame, no micro almost and vs such i lose... undeads....

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Spy

Chris, orc is gg ud. Just use ensnare by all means + they get wind riders oO.

As I said, the only thing that makes matters difficult is the heroes and the destroyers. Fiends are easy to flatten with nets and TC.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Mike

It takes 4 siege tanks approximately 59 seconds to kill 9 destroyers with 400/400 mana, losing 3 tanks in the process.
It takes 4 siege tanks approximately 41 seconds to kill 7 destroyers with 400/400 mana, losing no tanks.

You are talking about a unit, in this case a tank which can attack up to 9 units at once, so all 9 destroyers are hit in one attack, dealing piercing damage at around 25(31) damage.

Also think of it like this. Tanks = 3 food, destro = 5. For every 2 destroyers, you could support 3 tanks. 5 destroyers to 8 tanks.

Then look at it like this, each destroyer costs around 275 gold and 225 wood. A siege engine costs 190 gold and 60 wood. I mean the only thing that makes it harder for the siege tank is being a longer build time by 10 seconds, thats about it.

Also, if you can: You can smash the Statue before it flys with Gryphons or other units. However, this theory is also assuming the units aren't being healed by outside forces or the targets are not being microed.

[None293823]

Here's a game, a crap where i was so slow that seeing my heroes died 10 times and knights, rofl. Im posting these 2 replays only because you wanted Mike and this one only to see what is needed to win vs ud and how many towers least of all. Sorry for the crappy micro later but the beginning with expo and towers, i saved it for myself just to see what is perfect to stop dests before you have gyro. But he sucked so i'd better bring better games that are good micro games vs very skilled, i just need a host thast why im counting on azeroth if we meet to have a host.

(Attachment removed)

[Chris]

Ill watch it later. Do not worry bout micro later, even I and quite a few players have the problem.

[Emperor Pan I]

I did notice for most of the entire time you were attacking him you had in excess 800+ gold, and were only building knights out of one barracks.

[None293823]

Well i wouldnt need any other units, why mass when he was gg since i attacked him ? ;>

But you might want to see the 1st because this only shows 'imba human towers'. The 1st rep is where i cant win a single battle, every time i have to retreat.

Ill watch it later. Do not worry bout micro later, even I and quite a few players have the problem.

Lol? It's not acceptable for me. Ive played in our big league, ive played 10k times better, when im mr. slow reactions this is not typically me. Errm ok you almost put me below you in skill, or equal, no offense, this is solo, i play solo for you know -a long time xD. Those better than me - much longer.

[Chris]

Yeah, but you can't assure anything. You could lose it all in seconds.

Lol? It's not acceptable for me. Ive played in our big league, ive played 10k times better, when im mr. slow reactions this is not typically me. Errm ok you almost put me below you in skill, or equal, no offense, this is solo, i play solo for you know -a long time xD. Those better than me - much longer.

You don't mean Much Better do you? I for one can only play really well micro wise in small games.

[None293823]

Yes much better my usual one, but this can be worse .Then I'll show you reps with my best when i make such games at least vs other races. Im not concentrated on every unit lately but believe me i have done with almost no units lost and im not talking about newb opponents. Hu mirror, thats my power, vs elf, vs orc there is no way not to lose vs lightning on red hp, but I have realitevly good micro unlike now... when i started playing again and i dont feel in that shape as before. In fact, in mirror im pissed off do you know i have better or equal micro vs some lvls around 40 ? In hu mirror yes, i outmicro them then they do smth that they win, serious push of mass casters when i hate mass castrs and i dont like losing with tier3 etc, but in the beginning i rule.

Besides, show some reps of your micro in solo ;>

[Chris]

Yeah, I should probably show you how I play the game, so you can get a grasp on how I play Orc or NE. Vs Orc, human is ez. The orcs hate Sorceresses, slow just rapes them horribly. Considering grunts have average in both move speed and attack speed, the only thing that worries is Wyvern tech when you are starting to get rifles or raiders.

The Humans are too caster dependant. Thier melee is mostly made up of armor and not damage. I can obviously see why its kinda difficult to combat ud or any other race who has a mass dispel.

[None293823]

I actually dont you need to tell me my mistakes, because we would say the same. It all started with showing the imbaness of panda not 'plz help me'. As long as i have been shown smth from pretty good players about my general way of playing - they tell me when we play vs each other. And besides, i dont see the point in posting crappy replays. Maybe some very good reps vs very skilled or in tournaments if i play again, otherwise no point to post smth that nobody watches.

[None293823]

I can show a number of reps in which i beat undead, before that i lost every single game vs ud, now i make wins! With expo and towers ofc.

[Chris]

Expo and towers with any race makes you superior. Especially with humans, since they are more well rounded units.

[None293823]

Yes but it is almosst like no way to beat ud without this. Example: today. Let ,e tell you what happens: You start off on tm map, 2 o clock and hes at 4. We creep and chase each other till tier 2, he surrounds kills a foot, i kill a ghoul.At t2 if he finds me with lich, he kills another 1-2 foots. I make tier 3 fast, start making workshops, then he makes the first 1-2 aboms(surpirse! no dests, i start making aviary but when hes in my base..) with the 5-6 gouls vs 4 foot, 3 hero and 1 knight. And even with militia that cannot beat the mentioned. Ghouls + skele + nova kill some militia, the rest kills some foots, stat whie alivr heals and he almost loses nothing - a typical ud vs human game wthout expo on TM and sometimes dests that kill the fm or in late game ud always winning-the typical cases. - This is how a no expo game runs.