Hey there men and girls !

[Emperor Pan I]

The thing is, you do pick one or the other. It is all about balance. I am simply stating that Breakers are jsut as effective as Priests. I in all honesty will build Priests for Necro rushes, but I will also build Breakers. Breakers are underused, but are incredibly effective. Especialy when you steal bloodlust from an enemy.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by N_LeGenD)

someone said AMS is not dispellable, with replay.

I already know about that. For now I know... When I looked at the hero setup, I noticed he had a Pit Lord with Level 3 Howl. Indeed a lethal prick when he cuts your damage in half for 15 seconds. You could always try to hit these powerhouses with the hero nuke combo.

Banish > storm bolt > fs/Blizz. Its lethal, but watch that you don't fry your own men in the process. Casters and fiends don't take thunder clap too well, having your attack and movement reduced by 50% isn't really a good thing.

You also made a fatal mistake bringing sorcs. If he goes mass destroyers, your slow and/or polymorph will just be turned into "Destroyer Food".

AOE and anti magic is key to beating that strategy, also a few siege engines might give the destroyers something to worry bout. Cause Rifleman are screwed if they get overrunned by skeletons.

[TheoStormhawk]

Originally Posted by Revelade

I apologize for my rude attitude (hey that rhymes).

My guess is that a buff or debuff on an AMS unit would be dispelled, but I could be wrong.

Yea, Pit Lord just doesn't work well. Rain of fire would be great, but it costs 85 and he has low mana. In addition, many players can just run when it is casted. Howl is okay, but it requires him to be in the front lines, vulnerable and the enemy can run their units off. It's only great when facing MANY units, usually at the mid game. Finally, cleaving forces the PL to be in center stage, where he can easily be FF'ed. Doom could be great, but it's not instant and it's hard to get the PL to level 6.

Breakers cost more at 215 gold, while priests are only 135. Next, for every 2 breakers, you can have 3 priests. That alone justifies dispell. Thirdly, priests can use heal and later, inner fire, which makes them more versatile. Fourth, chances are, any decent UD player will not have their heroes in the front lines. They will keep them back to avoid FF. That would make targetting say a DK with breakers hard. Fifth, the armor of breakers is medium, which takes bonus damage from skeletons normal attack. Sixth, cooldown for spell steal is 3 seconds, while dispell has NO cool down. Seventh, spellsteal only works on buffs/debuffs, while dispell works on those AND skeletons. Finally, the priest has more mana to do AoE dispells, while breakers have only so much mana to do single spellsteals that take 3 seconds to cooldown. Did I mention priests do magic damage, which does bonus to skeletons?

So what I'm trying to say is this. Dispell is just better because:

- it works on skeletons as WELL as buffs/debuffs (versatile)
- no cooldown (faster)
- area of effect (larger)
- priests have more mana (300 compared to breakers 250)

If you have a 5 cursed rifles clumped together, you can use 1 or 2 dispells and that's it for 150 mana. If you have spell breaker, not only do you have to waste 75X5 mana, but you will have to wait 12 seconds for the cool down of spell steal to work.

Armies of skeletons? Are you going to waste 81 mana to control 1 skeleton, when necros can summon 2 for only 75 mana? Dispell wins here.

Mass cripple? I have yet to see that, but you clump them and give 1-3 dispells and it's all fine. Say you have 5 units crippled. 1 or 2 dispells that cost 150 total have erased what he has done with 175x5 mana. Perfect sense to me.

From what I've played, UD players RARELY use banshees. There's a good chance you might not even steal a single spell at all.

I think UD casters are great, but are incredibly nerfed vs anticasters, more so than other races casters. All spells of the necro can be dispelled, while AMS is only great as defense. Possession is difficult to use than say, healing ward, bloodlust or inner fire. If you don't like UD casters, I can see why. It's just something people don't expect.

Again, I'm sorry if I offended you by my other post. I only called you that because you said AMS is dispellable.

No problem, apology accepted. I think we must not take personaly our posts.

Let us not compare too much the breaker and the priest because we can have them both u know , the balance is important.
I think that Pan's post(#17) is exceptional,and I think we must not analyze the breaker from the mass dispeller point of view,he is a super tactical unit.
You mentioned something about 5 cursed rifles, the important thing is that the breaker not only removes a buff, it places that negative buff on an enemy. If that undead enemy doesn't have destroyers to dispel curse or cripple from his units he is dead(for good )
Another thing is about the mana pool of the breaker and priest, as long as they are "brilliant" I think that is no problem.

U are right to say that UD players rarely use banshees, but we must talk about them because they are in the strategy of this thread.
I red on this forum a post in wich a guy said that "UD tier 3 is a must", u know why he said that, because of his casters and his units at tier 2, the human at tier 2 is a force compared to the undead.

Coming back to the breaker, like I said in that best race thread, I think that the human race is the best because of this unit.Spell steal is great man, sometimes even control magic because u can steal a spirit wolf or quill beast or a lava spawn. The thing is that human has inner fire, and if your enemy uses let's say for example bloodlust u will have inner fire + a few units with bloodlust.
I want to say that if I have max 3 breakers in my army, master priests (4 or 5) and I fight against an orc with bloodlust, I say that my units will have bloodlust in almost the same number as his units (not to mention that breakers steal spirit link too). Do you think that this doesn't count?
Dispel magic is good but like I said, maybe u have some important positive buffs on your units like Inner fire and/or staff of protection, and because of a curse or 2 u have to dispel them all.
About the breaker armor, his armor maybe medium, but it has quite a lot of it, 3 at start and 9 with full upgrades, also remember that his spell imunity makes him damage proof from all the magic attack units.
About the cripple, I didn't mean it to be mass, just combined with curse.
Concerning the skelies u are right, of course dispel magic is the ONLY solution otherwise it gets any player overwhelmed, and that is why I said before that we can use both the breaker and the priests, that is the all idea.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by TheoStormHawk

Coming back to the breaker, like I said in that best race thread, I think that the human race is the best because of this unit.Spell steal is great man, sometimes even control magic because u can steal a spirit wolf or quill beast or a lava spawn

More like they are Witch Doctor counters. They can steal healing wards and Statis Traps easily.

[TheoStormhawk]

Originally Posted by Hellwolf_36

More like they are Witch Doctor counters. They can steal healing wards and Statis Traps easily.

Yes, but that isn't profitable because the wards can be eliminated too easy.
I still say that sumoned units like spirit wolves are nice in your possesion.

[Chris]

Oh. You won't believe how many players I face don't even notice the wards on the ground. Of course taking over summons is a good thing, that way you can have an extra unit to absorb some damage before it dies. But sadly, the breaker's mana supply really only allows him to get things like skeletons and lvl 1-2 wolves.

[TheoStormhawk]

Originally Posted by Hellwolf_36

But sadly, the breaker's mana supply really only allows him to get things like skeletons and lvl 1-2 wolves.

Yes, I never casted it on the level 3 wolves.

[Chris]

Actually you can cast it on Level 3 wolves. 25 + 0.45(500) = 250 mana.
Its not really worth it since A) You blew all your breaker's mana on a wolf and B) The wolf relatively has the power of a footman.

I prefer using it against Witch Doctors
25 + 0.45(100) = 70 mana
25 + 0.45(5) = 27.25 mana

Also, don't underestimate the power of tanks. Tanks can hit multiple destroyers at once, and a lot of them can make a destroyer's life span short.

[TheoStormhawk]

Originally Posted by Hellwolf_36

Also, don't underestimate the power of tanks. Tanks can hit multiple destroyers at once, and a lot of them can make a destroyer's life span short.

Yes, the tank is a super unit, because it has fortified armor, and can be inner fired.

But against destroyers inner fire is unavailable, and u need at least 3 tanks to inflict some real damage against destroyers (even if now they have 1 point less starting armor).

[Chris]

Plus, if the guy had a death knight. He would be blowing major mana individually healing units. Death Coil is a good healer, but not when you have many damage units. Stats don't heal as fast as they appear, so don't rely on them heavily.

I guess we can agree upon that a good army of priests, breakers, tanks and any other units that can destroy casters while taking the magic damage is necessary to defeat a combo of casters and anti-casters.

[TheoStormhawk]

Originally Posted by Hellwolf_36

I guess we can agree upon that a good army of priests, breakers, tanks and any other units that can destroy casters while taking the magic damage is necessary to defeat a combo of casters and anti-casters.

Yes, but ussualy and especially now (because of the destroyer armor) I use against them dragonhawk instead of tanks, tanks are good against buildings but cloud keeps that black citadel away and any towers that one might have.

[Chris]

Also taking into consideration that he spell is canceled if Fiends web.

[TheoStormhawk]

Originally Posted by Hellwolf_36

Also taking into consideration that he spell is canceled if Fiends web.

I didn't know that, I know that the web doesn't dispel aerial shackles and I thought that is valid for cloud too. Seems I was wrong.
However the tank has a huge shortcoming in the fact that it cannot attack units and only buidings.

[Dream_Walker]

Originally Posted by I_am_noob

Wow , My friend mass Destroy with about 6-7 fiend + web , lot of banshee to posesion and necro to cripple me , his ghoul and skeleton is annoying me all the time by surround my heroes . Althought i have mortar , rife and some priest , soc , breakers , but can do any thing , cuz his banshee cast anti - magic shield on almost her units . Necro cripple , and skele , His pit lord terror ( Level 3 ) and the naga with bow + Lighting . So what can i do ?

seriously, get some priests and use dispel. and try using polymorph once in a while.

[Chris]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but polymorph is a waste of mana since destroyers can devour magic and turn it into "Destroyer Food". But this can be used against them. If he were to use say Scroll of Protection and you polymorph or slow a bunch of them: He would have to eat not only the debuffs, but also the scroll along with it. However, you are better off not carrying priests for this one, autocast heal and not inner fire would be a suggested idea.

@Theo: However, if you cast while webbed and you come back up to the sky, you will still channel the spell until you get webbed again.

[Harris.On.Rento]

Yes, the tank is a super unit, because it has fortified armor, and can be inner fired.

Man.. tanks can't be inner fired. they are mechanical. that would be insane. if that was possible, you could also bloodlust tanks -.-

[TheoStormhawk]

Originally Posted by Harris.On.Rento

Yes, the tank is a super unit, because it has fortified armor, and can be inner fired.

Man.. tanks can't be inner fired. they are mechanical. that would be insane. if that was possible, you could also bloodlust tanks -.-

I believe the message you quoted was mine.

YES, tanks can be inner fired even if they are mechanical units, and get +5 to that insane armor. I know this 100% for 1.18 , and 90% for 1.20 because I haven't tested it yet on this latest version.
Bloodlust is not appliable on the mechanical units. Another buff on this kind of units is slow from sorcerres.

[Emperor Pan I]

A catapult can be slowed, but not lusted. What sense does that make?

[TheoStormhawk]

Originally Posted by Pan

A catapult can be slowed, but not lusted. What sense does that make?

Yes, it is weird, but imagine a catapult with fast attack speed, fast siege attack at about 200 damage, that would be insane.Instead tank doesn't attack ground units so that inner fire is insane only against buidings and aerial units.

[Chris]

Lust doesn't affect mech units. If it did, then seige engines and demos would be FAR TOO L33T for thier own good. Then again, the lust or if would just turn into "Destroyer Food".