Zerg is weak overall.

[Urza208]

archons pwn duh. think about it liek this though. if you know how to play zerg.. like im not claiming im god at it, but if you do it right and you can speed rush. im damn sure 5-10 zerglings can pwn anyones minor bases if they nub enough to let u rush. but hey its just my opinion.

[CerebralChain]

I must say, I'm impressed about your so-called "micro", Snagg.

[Ntrik_]

Originally Posted by CerebralChain

I must say, I'm impressed about your so-called "micro", Snagg.

Eitherway CC, you have to admit, the time it takes to make Guards takes much longer than time it takes to make Archons.

[ReiGn]

Originally Posted by Snagg

Enough of these opinions. I made a simple map of 10 archons vs 15 guardians. I spread out the guardians to simulate "micro". 5 archons died versus 15 guardians annihilated.

www.boomspeed.com/jake/guardsvsarchons.rep

Owned.

BTW 500 minerals, 1500 gas was used for protoss team.

Compared to 2250 gas and 3000 gas used for the zerg team.

Yes you're right, guardians have range. But 5 archon hits kill 1 guardian. Versus approximately 18 hits to kill one archon.

Edit:
I got curious and see how far 10 archons could go.
10 mutas, 10 hydras, about 3 dozen zerglings, one ultralisk.
www.boomspeed.com/jake/archonsvszerg.rep
3 archons were left. Again, I did not micro my archons. I let the ultralisk attack from the flank.

How about you actually try playing someone?

[PowerPPower]

i cant believe that some1 can said those things.
Zerg is weak??
Lets see
marine? i can use 1 zlot to kill 4 marines
bat? i can jsut use 3 cannons to kill at least 12 bats
medic? useless when against dts(1 hit kill rine)
vulture?? i can use 2 goons to kill 12 vultures
tanks? is exp and ez crash by zlots
wraith? haha ,i can use 2 scout to kill 4 wraiths
BC? carriers is crashing ur base when u are building
ghost? gd ghost do 10/4 to goons!(nearly 0)
valk? does 16 to carrier
That i proof that t is weak??
i can proof that all races are weak in this way
Just that i think they are balanced

12archons against 12guards
at normal condition, archons win
(archon do 30+9 to at least 2 guards in 1 hit,and they attack fastly,they hv more hp than guard, they only weak at their range)
guard hp:150
armor:2
attack :20+6
kill 1 archon with 14 hits(full upgarde)

archon hp:10
shield :350
armor:0
attack :30+9
kill 1 guard with 4 hit(full upgarde)

So 12 guards can only kill 1 archon b4 archon can attack them at normal condition
(need 14 hits to kill 1 archon)
then start fighting, archon must win

[avance70]

Originally Posted by Snagg

I don't see how zerg can beat anything. protoss and terran completely overpower it.

Zerglings? I once killed 5 lings with one zealot.
Lurkers? By that time people will have detectors unless you're newb. Tanks kill it. And basically it dies very quickly and very expensive.
Mutalisks? Costs a lot. Dies by a few turrets or cannons.
Hydralisks? Can't beat tanks and marines and medics... or dragoons and dts and zealots
Guardians? the protoss/terran was a newb to let you get so many guardians... and can be countered with anti-air.

The only thing that I can think of that's good is defliers with Dark Swarm. And even then by the time you tech that high. Terran and Protoss has powerful units like battlecruisers and archons etc.

Ultralisks btw are a waste of money.

you couldnt be more wrong
heres a small replay i made in 5 minutes just to proove you wrong

http://avance70.tripod.com/zerg_rules.zip

comments:
NO MICROMANAGMENT USED (just attack ground, additional comments below)

1.ATTACK:
3 hydra VS 2 goon
because of the lazy unit movement, one hydra is left behind, but even then the much more expensive goons vere defeated!

2.ATTACK:
6 scourge VS bc
no comment about the price comparison!!

3.ATTACK:
4 hydra VS archon
again, lazy unit movement left one hydra behind and packed units tightly so the splash damage was in place... 4 hydras are 300min100gas, archon is 100min300gas... so in essence the hydras are cheaper because you collect minerals much faster than gas... not to mention that you can upgrade the hydra range etc.

4.ATTACK:
6 lings VS 2 zealots
attack ground unit movement is getting worse and worse... during the attack you can see one ling moving around not doing anything, but still the much cheaper lings defat the zealots... imagine the upgraded attack speed on lings...

5.ATTACK:
3 lings VS 1 zealot
just to prove that no micromanagement could help this zealot escape... but with proper micro on zerg side would leave all lings alive
again lings much cheaper and imagine the upgraded attack speed

6.ATTACK:
4 lings VS 3 marines
much cheaper

7.ATTACK:
1 ling VS 1 marice
MUCH CHEAPER

the rest are for fun:
you said ultras are useless
here you can see 1 ultra defeating 7 vultures (compare the price!)
and 1 ultra killing 7 bats (though it could kill even more - check the remaining health!)

and 1 good killed by 3 lings, thats just funny how much less expensive lings are!

[Snagg]

Err, everyone was saying guardians can own archons. That was why I made that map.

Your matchups are just countering.

Please refer to the 2nd replay. I used almost every unit for zerg. You guys were using one unit vs one unit which were biased examples. Guardians vs Archons was just because everyone was saying guardians own archons. Do you guys want me to compare the price for the 2nd replay?

[avance70]

nobody is crazy to attack archons with guards on open ground (in fact - nobody's crazy to attack any ground unit (that can fire back) with air units on open ground except when in vast numbers- prove me wrong!)

so tell me, if the zerg are that bad- why do so many pro players still play with them?

and i love that part: "Your matchups are just countering." - you mean if my oponnent goes archons, i should not counter with hydra?? the game is all about countering. a decent zerg player would never go crazy strats youre offering - like mass muta against archons?? would you go mass zealots against lurkers??

Originally Posted by Snagg

Err, everyone was saying guardians can own archons. That was why I made that map.

Your matchups are just countering.

Please refer to the 2nd replay. I used almost every unit for zerg. You guys were using one unit vs one unit which were biased examples. Guardians vs Archons was just because everyone was saying guardians own archons. Do you guys want me to compare the price for the 2nd replay?

oh im so sorry but your precious little archons just got owned by my hydras.. WITH 9 TO SPARE! (and thats without the speed and range upgrades!)

http://avance70.tripod.com/hydrasliks_own.zip

Originally Posted by Snagg

Edit:
I got curious and see how far 10 archons could go.
10 mutas, 10 hydras, about 3 dozen zerglings, one ultralisk.
www.boomspeed.com/jake/archonsvszerg.rep
3 archons were left. Again, I did not micro my archons. I let the ultralisk attack from the flank.

they would go very far... in fact, they wouldnt go at all! :yamer
you think a pro player would attack your archons with zerglings?!?! how much of a n00b must you be?

Originally Posted by Snagg

This thread is done and is official. Zerg can't beat nothing on moneymaps like bgh.

oh that explains it all... a MONEY MAP!!
As you said: This thread is done and is official:
Snagg is a newbie.

Originally Posted by Snagg

I don't see how they can withstand a zealot rush

ever seen a pro protoss zealot rush? no? ever wondered why not?

Originally Posted by Snagg

BTW I was wondering. Does storm damage units in swarm?

n00b

Originally Posted by Snagg

Metabolic boost indeed is powerful. However you cannot get it until late in the game.

n00b

Originally Posted by Snagg

Money map zerg will be owned. Since Terran and Protoss do not need to expand at all.

n00b

should i go on...?

[Ntrik_]

Originally Posted by avance70

you couldnt be more wrong
heres a small replay i made in 5 minutes just to proove you wrong

http://avance70.tripod.com/zerg_rules.zip

comments:
NO MICROMANAGMENT USED (just attack ground, additional comments below)

1.ATTACK:
3 hydra VS 2 goon
because of the lazy unit movement, one hydra is left behind, but even then the much more expensive goons vere defeated!

2.ATTACK:
6 scourge VS bc
no comment about the price comparison!!

3.ATTACK:
4 hydra VS archon
again, lazy unit movement left one hydra behind and packed units tightly so the splash damage was in place... 4 hydras are 300min100gas, archon is 100min300gas... so in essence the hydras are cheaper because you collect minerals much faster than gas... not to mention that you can upgrade the hydra range etc.

4.ATTACK:
6 lings VS 2 zealots
attack ground unit movement is getting worse and worse... during the attack you can see one ling moving around not doing anything, but still the much cheaper lings defat the zealots... imagine the upgraded attack speed on lings...

5.ATTACK:
3 lings VS 1 zealot
just to prove that no micromanagement could help this zealot escape... but with proper micro on zerg side would leave all lings alive
again lings much cheaper and imagine the upgraded attack speed

6.ATTACK:
4 lings VS 3 marines
much cheaper

7.ATTACK:
1 ling VS 1 marice
MUCH CHEAPER

the rest are for fun:
you said ultras are useless
here you can see 1 ultra defeating 7 vultures (compare the price!)
and 1 ultra killing 7 bats (though it could kill even more - check the remaining health!)

and 1 good killed by 3 lings, thats just funny how much less expensive lings are!

uh..

I hope you do have fair enough knowledge of SC.. because even I knew that, who doesnt micro their unit while playing anyways?

Seriously, do you think Pro players would attack zergling siwth goons? Hell no, if I were them, I'd very much use zlots or archons, or high temps with some tanks.

[avance70]

Originally Posted by _Mike

Seriously, do you think Pro players would attack zergling siwth goons? Hell no, if I were them, I'd very much use zlots or archons, or high temps with some tanks.

well of course you wouldnt attack lings with goons, but thats not what im talking about
i was talking as if i was the zerg player, and say my toss oponnent masses goons - in that case i could attack those goons with lings!

but im confused with this part:

Originally Posted by _Mike

or high temps with some tanks.

mind control a tank in a ZvP??

[Ntrik_]

Originally Posted by avance70

well of course you wouldnt attack lings with goons, but thats not what im talking about
i was talking as if i was the zerg player, and say my toss oponnent masses goons - in that case i could attack those goons with lings!

but im confused with this part:



mind control a tank in a ZvP??

Tanks = melee dmg absorbers, guess terminologies are bit diff in sc

[Snagg]

Way to be on topic, whoever said I was newb. That's totally irrelevant and ignorant.

ever seen a pro protoss zealot rush? no? ever wondered why not?

Not in 1v1, but in team play it is used very often.

Can't really reply to the rest or your post because you just keep saying n00b. Not gonna go off topic and defend them.

And obviously, you haven't seen my 2nd replay. It has almost every zerg unit in there.

[avance70]

Originally Posted by Snagg

Way to be on topic, whoever said I was newb.

haha, youre right: "on topic"!

Originally Posted by Snagg

Not gonna go off topic and defend them.

make a new topic if you like, but theres no way defending those...

Originally Posted by Snagg

but in team play it is used very often.

newbie, thats even worse! plz give us some more...
im just gonna quote blizzard on this one (so you dont DARE comment back):
"Zealots with at least a 1:2 ratio against Zerglings will usually prevail."
and thats - usually (so not always!) they prevail even though double the price!
so, say, youre playing 2 zerg VS 2 toss and toss goes zealot rush, zerg go ling rush. if the toss attack first, they will be defeated (cause by the time you reach your oponnent, they WILL have even more lings than 2:1 ration and usually have one sunken, whats more than enough to help defend the zealots), while the other zerg will be left with a whole army of zerglings and bring down one (if not two right away) toss down.

so:

Originally Posted by Snagg

Way to be on topic, whoever said I was newb. That's totally irrelevant and ignorant.

and sadly for you, totally true.

[Snagg]

You can't have metallic boost late in the game because you need a hive. You will get owned if you try to tech that fast.

I was not talking about 2 protoss zealot rushing, please stop putting words in my mouth. I am talking about one protoss and one terran/zerg. Zealots are the meatshield, marines/hydralisks are the ranged. Have fun trying to defend that.
Zealots by themselves will get owned unless you rush Protoss. Drones will cover the sunkens or scvs will repair the bunker.

If 2 protoss attack one zerg. It is unlikely they will prevail. The ratio will probably be 1:1. Unless you're talking about the other zerg teamate helping (which is usually the case). The zerg is doomed.

You dont need to expand in moneymaps, because you never run out of money.

There, defended.

[avance70]

Originally Posted by Snagg

You can't have metallic boost late in the game because you need a hive. You will get owned if you try to tech that fast.

I was not talking about 2 protoss zealot rushing, please stop putting words in my mouth. I am talking about one protoss and one terran/zerg. Zealots are the meatshield, marines/hydralisks are the ranged. Have fun trying to defend that.
Zealots by themselves will get owned unless you rush Protoss. Drones will cover the sunkens or scvs will repair the bunker.

If 2 protoss attack one zerg. It is unlikely they will prevail. The ratio will probably be 1:1. Unless you're talking about the other zerg teamate helping (which is usually the case). The zerg is doomed.

You dont need to expand in moneymaps, because you never run out of money.

There, defended.

ok, you defended NOTHING:

Originally Posted by Snagg

You can't have metallic boost late in the game because you need a hive. You will get owned if you try to tech that fast.

to research metabolic boost, you just bulid a pool and research it, thats it, who said anything about the hive??

Originally Posted by Snagg

I was not talking about 2 protoss zealot rushing, please stop putting words in my mouth. I am talking about one protoss and one terran/zerg. Zealots are the meatshield, marines/hydralisks are the ranged. Have fun trying to defend that.
Zealots by themselves will get owned unless you rush Protoss. Drones will cover the sunkens or scvs will repair the bunker.

you just contradicted yourself with sunkens.

Originally Posted by Snagg

If 2 protoss attack one zerg. It is unlikely they will prevail. The ratio will probably be 1:1. Unless you're talking about the other zerg teamate helping (which is usually the case). The zerg is doomed.

zerglings can be build 4 times as faster and are 4 times as cheaper than the zealots, so when you have 10 zealots i have 40 lings. if you have a teammate with another 10 zealots, thats 20 to 40 (1:2). by the time you reach my base i have even more lings and prolly a sunken or two. so both toss players are doomed.

Originally Posted by Snagg

You dont need to expand in moneymaps, because you never run out of money.

only newbies play on money maps. and even if you do - if a toss and terran have the money, then the zerg has it as well.

and i say again: YOU DEFENDED NOTHING.

[Snagg]

Ok, metabolic boost I was wrong. My bad.

you just contradicted yourself with sunkens.

I said one protoss one terran right? Sunkens will hit the zealots while terran kills the sunken. No contradiction there. If it is two protosses, two forces of zealots will overwhelm one zerg. No matter how you block those sunkens.

only newbies play on money maps. and even if you do - if a toss and terran have the money, then the zerg has it as well.

True, but zerg's advantage is out expanding the other races, to make up for it's weak one on one unit comparisons. In money maps, a toss and terran will have same money as zerg. That's why they will win. Please refer to the 2nd replay I posted. And saying newbies play on money maps is not arguing with the fact you don't need to expand in money maps, stick with what we're talking about please.

and i say again: YOU DEFENDED NOTHING.

Please read before you post.

[avance70]

Originally Posted by Snagg

I said one protoss one terran right?

actually, you didnt

Originally Posted by Snagg

Sunkens will hit the zealots while terran kills the sunken. No contradiction there.

nah they wont, newbie:
-zealots seriously overpowered by 40-50 lings
-marines suck against sunkens... youll need many many marines to kill 2 sunkens
and if youre talking about medics - by the time you have them, i have lurkers, and id like to see you try your marines on them

Originally Posted by Snagg

If it is two protosses, two forces of zealots will overwhelm one zerg. No matter how you block those sunkens.

~40-50 ling with a sunk on 20 zeal... haha, youre so amusing

Originally Posted by Snagg

True, but zerg's advantage is out expanding the other races,

true

Originally Posted by Snagg

to make up for it's weak one on one unit comparisons.

wrong, n00b

Originally Posted by Snagg

In money maps, a toss and terran will have same money as zerg. That's why they will win.

WRONG, zerg can still expand and have even more money. And dont tell me we're talking about some silly map without expansion sites.

Originally Posted by Snagg

Please read before you post.

this wouldnt be so fun if i didnt, you newbie

Originally Posted by Snagg

Ok, metabolic boost I was wrong. My bad.

thank you for admitting,
now just admit youre a big fat newbie, and we wont take all this personally, but just have a big laugh at all the obscurely ridiculous things youve said.

[Ntrik_]

I love how random people just post and randomly yell out newbie

[a@...]

Seriously, _Mike and Snagg, you two love birds, do you guys even actually play the game?
I mean hardcore like 20~40 games per day.
Because it seems like you guys are like living in a fantasy world where you think you're good because you win most of the pubby games.
Ever heard of PGTour, Gamei, competitive ladder or competitive 1:1 channels on west?
To me all you do is just talk and no walk.

What I don't like about this forum is that some people are just so stubborn and ignorant they never listen to others yet they think their opinions are so good and valuable, and just ignore the hell outta everybody.

As for 2on2 teamplay, Terran/Protoss? that's the WORST combination next to Terran/Terran.
Teamplay is the game where macro takes up the majority of the game and micro to back it up. The point of Zerg/Zerg is to finish one off, and finish off another later in the game.

It is Terran=Zerg>Protoss to me, anyway.

P.S. - Snagg, we're not talking about BGH hunter here, so your posts are completey useless to me, phoenix, and avance.

[Ntrik_]

Originally Posted by a@...

Seriously, _Mike and Snagg, you two love birds, do you guys even actually play the game?
I mean hardcore like 20~40 games per day.
Because it seems like you guys are like living in a fantasy world where you think you're good because you win most of the pubby games.
Ever heard of PGTour, Gamei, competitive ladder or competitive 1:1 channels on west?
To me all you do is just talk and no walk.

What I don't like about this forum is that some people are just so stubborn and ignorant they never listen to others yet they think their opinions are so good and valuable, and just ignore the hell outta everybody.

As for 2on2 teamplay, Terran/Protoss? that's the WORST combination next to Terran/Terran.
Teamplay is the game where macro takes up the majority of the game and micro to back it up. The point of Zerg/Zerg is to finish one off, and finish off another later in the game.

It is Terran=Zerg>Protoss to me, anyway.

P.S. - Snagg, we're not talking about BGH hunter here, so your posts are completey useless to me, phoenix, and avance.

I never said Zerg sucked, I was purely stating the fact that archon owns the **** out of the zerg with decent support.