The food limit - way too big?

[Impact02]

One thing that bothers me about SCII: Ok I will enjoy the no heroes, it is ok that it will require less micro than war3 because of no saving abilities, items, etc. there will still be micro techniques but less than in war3, micro can be applied to EVERY strategy. However, if they are to keep the same limit as in SC.... ok, less micro than war3 but, what will a solo game be?? Massing units? I've seen few Broodwar clips of top players and I have seen they mass units (well in war3 that number of units is called massing). If it is about massing 200-300, come on in war3 solo is generally with 60-70-80 mostly food, 100 is many, what to say about more? That will suck a lot. Imagine a 200 vs 200 units in solo...... then imagine a 2v2, then imagine a 3v3 or more ....... what 1000 units??? Maybe because the Zerg hatch in huge armies, this is a space strategy and it is more realistic with bigger armies but they could have made max 150 units, 200-300.... this sucks. It won't change m decision to move to this game because I like space and futuristic strageis and games, not fantasy anymore, but massing towers and armies.

Hey, Blizzard can make it like that: in solo the limit to be 100-150, in team 200-300. I mean the default to be different limits for the different game types.

[Wing Zero]

200 is fine

I think zerg is the only race that can mass over 200 (Zerglings) but the only reason why they mass is because their strength is in numbers due to teh low health and attack.
i dont think people will get a chance to build up as much in sc2. with all these base raid units im sure you can keep your opponent from massing too much

[Emperor Pan I]

It's like how WCIII has a 100 food limit, but never gets much greater than High Upkeep. a 200 limit isn't going to be reached very often. Look at SC games now in pro replays. They have a lot of units, but nowhere near 200 on either side.

You'll get around 200 per player in noob team games where everyone sits and masses their units and does an all out attack.

[Laharl]

Actually, Starcraft typically takes MORE skill to properly micro, as the war3 engine does nearly 80% of the actual 'work' for you. Which is what drove me away.

If it keeps BW's casting system, points towards it

[Emperor Pan I]

Originally Posted by Magical Trevor

Actually, Starcraft typically takes MORE skill to properly micro, as the war3 engine does nearly 80% of the actual 'work' for you. Which is what drove me away.

If it keeps BW's casting system, points towards it

the UI doesn't do the work. Just makes combat more interactive and increases the need for micro.

[Laharl]

The engine does the work, doing things like have casters autoacquire targets instead of doing exactly what you ordered. That's shooting the bull. It's stupid. It should take all work on the user's end for good micro, not have an advanced casting system (for example) do it FOR YOU.

I want to play a game, not have the game play itself for me.

[Emperor Pan I]

And maybe Terran players should have to click their medics individually to heal a specific unit with a medic. Can't let anything but the players mad clicks do the work.

Secondly > Less than 25% of spells are auto-cast. The rest of the spells are by any half-decent player turned off, because they are shitty spells with exception of heal, and even that is turned off so players have mana for abolish. This crazy thing called strategy prevents using autocast so you don't blow your mana for retarded reasons.

[Laharl]

I'm not talking about auto casting! I never once mentioned the autocasting system! I was talking about how separate units, when selected in a group, auto-acquire separate targets if told to cast a spell on one particular unit. That, to me, kills more need for micro than anything.

Then you have war3 players insisting that war3 takes MORE micro.

One of these days I'm going to get on war3 with Chris, and clean house on those kids -.-

[Emperor Pan I]

Originally Posted by Magical Trevor

I'm not talking about auto casting! I never once mentioned the autocasting system! I was talking about how separate units, when selected in a group, auto-acquire separate targets if told to cast a spell on one particular unit. That, to me, kills more need for micro than anything.

The bloody hell are you talking about, if you cast a spell, only one spell is cast. Of the entire group they don't each find a target to cast on. that makes no sense.

[Laharl]

I misunderstood the system, then.

That still damages the micro system. It takes less skill to play a game like war3, than it does to play Broodwar... It's a sad, but obvious, fact.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Mike

And maybe Terran players should have to click their medics individually to heal a specific unit with a medic. Can't let anything but the players mad clicks do the work.

That is an obvious limitation. The only reason you would manual heal is to heal specific units. I usually just let my medics do it automatically. The only time you need to individually do somethign to them is for REstoration and Optical Flare, which I assume are still gonna exist in SC2.

However, the only reason I am posting is because I support both of you. There should be limitations, but it would be more reasonable to individual cast by unit click and not tabbing.

Originally Posted by Trevor

One of these days I'm going to get on war3 with Chris, and clean house on those kids -.-

Good luck finding a race that you can play as.

[Laharl]

The main problem is motivation. I have little, to no reason, to play a game that's learning and skill requirements I cannot respect. The same goes for sc2. I will not buy it because, like War3, it's graphics will more likely than not repulse me, and the learning curve will be near nonexistant.

[Chris]

Yeah but don't you think judging by a book by its cover is a lame idea?

[Emperor Pan I]

Originally Posted by Magical Trevor

That still damages the micro system. It takes less skill to play a game like war3, than it does to play Broodwar... It's a sad, but obvious, fact.

The Entire idea behind Warcraft III is that you can't lose a single unit. Starcraft as long as you have enough money you can throw units you don't need away. Warcraft III forces you to plan ahead and make every unit to it's full potential, otherwise you feed an enemy hero, or throw away very limited resources. A Warcraft III mine has only 12,500. An Undead player, which has the cheapest units of all races can have an army costing a solid 6000 gold, not counting upgrade, buildings etc. That is only one army for your first mine, and only allowed to rebuild two armies based on every expansion you have. You lose a unit, you feel it. You only have a 100 unit pop (barely ever reached) so the units you have force you to make every thing you have count.

Starcraft is what, 6,000 minerals on your first path, around that. Starcraft untis are dirt cheap in comparison to how much money you have > and how little a unit costs. You lose a couple of tanks, **** you can build more. You lose even 3 tier 3 units in WCIII, you're looking at a huge blow to your army. This forces you to A)Micro your units to survive, B) Force your units to inflict as much damage as possible C) Remove the ability of an enemy hero to level.

Lets not even talk about the fact you can play melee games on money maps in SC, and a lack of a solid ladder system which can't be abused.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Mike

Lets not even talk about the fact you can play melee games on money maps in SC, and a lack of a solid ladder system which can't be abused.

Those maps are a piece of degrading shit.

Whoever plays them obviously has no skill.

The idea behind those loser maps is for lazy people to gain free wins while taking the fun out of mining. Even Hunters modified was bad enough. I prefer playing with 1500/5000 setup and hunting for expos.

[Emperor Pan I]

The Hunters> Big Game Hunters. BGH was disgusting. left a bad taste in my mouth. After that you could never find a decent melee game which wasnt a map with pretty much no mining required.

[Laharl]

Uh, no. In real Broodwar maps (non-money) units are precious. Especially as protoss, _MY RACE OF CHOICE_. Most units I use as protoss ain't cheap. They don't come flying out of nowhere. Broodwar requires you to act fast to micro, and use units for all their worth. Unlike war3's casting system.

I'm close to feeling insulted, since you are accusing me of using money maps.

Looking at my map of preference, your main base starts with 12k minerals. 12k. That's significantly lower than your statement of 60k. The location right outside? 7.5k. That's 19.5k minerals. 5k gas. OH! Lovely! Significantly less gas than would be helpful! Let's look for more!

There are two non-expansion friendly geysers outside of the four starting locations, so let's ignore them. The 8k gas per geyser is offset by how inheritely near impossible they are to defend. Only FOUR EXPANSIONS ON THE ENTIRE FOUR PLAYER MAP HAVE GAS. And those four are right in between player spots, so they are meant to be highly fought over, and again. Difficult to gain or maintain.

Note: The two 8k gas geysers are dab in the middle. Goodie.

[Jimbo]

Warcraft 3 requires more micro.. And it requires a WAY different play style than sc..

I blow ass at wc3.. but I'm fairly good at sc.. I'm glad they kept the 200 limit.

[Laharl]

You're playing against nubs, not the actual people who know what they are doing.

War3's micro is obscenely easy, a mentally retarded eight year old could do it...

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Magical Trevor

You're playing against nubs, not the actual people who know what they are doing.

War3's micro is obscenely easy, a mentally retarded eight year old could do it...

Nah.. I'm good at SC.. trust me.

WC3 is a different play style.. WC3 units cost more, and the gold mine has less minerals..

Plus, protecting an exp always seemed harder and more time consuming in wc3 than in sc.. that might just be me though..

Heroes also drasticly change the playing style.. In wc3, if you loose 3 units in a battle, you can loose the game..

In sc, you could loose 1/2 your units and still pump out zealots/marines/lings and live(assuming its still fairly early in the game) and win the game if played right..