Would you be the..err, king of Europe...

[B~E]

What would you do concerning the demographique time bomb in Europe, as well as their continuous flow of muslim immigrants ? what mesure would you take ?



CIA report: EU and NATO to dissolve

Here's a fun solution : the EU should open its door to mexican workers, while closing its door to muslim immigrant. that has been talked about as a solution to the demographic time bomb in Europe. Think about it: They speak a Romance language and they're Christian. If the doors open legally for them, and recruiters visit Mexico, it could happen. Don't forget, agents for American factory owners used to recruit for workers in Europe in the late 19th and earlier 20th centuries.

It's not really a bad idea. Could be used as a platform plank for a moderate to conservative party in an EU nation.

[B~E]

I didn't knew that racism was such a taboo subject that no one would dare to post their opinion

[Tipsy]

Well in my opinion there is not much you can do. I have no problem with Muslims immigrants or Mexican immigrants that we have here. The only problem I have with them is when they are illegal. If they are illegal, just deport them, if they are legal immigrants, they have every right to live in that country. What measure would I take? Absolutely nothing, I have nothing against Muslims.

Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm

I didn't knew that racism was such a taboo subject that no one would dare to post their opinion

Ha ha, you double posted, go ban yourself from this forum

[B~E]

Its not a double post when its done 24 hours after the first post. You should know that, go read the rule again. In the meanwhile, your temporary banned. =P

Lets say that 50 years from now, in a country like France, christian europeans will be a minority (less that 50 % of the population). Wouldn't it be natural and comprehensible for them to apply racist laws ?

[Tipsy]

Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm

Lets say that 50 years from now, in a country like France, christian europeans will be a minority (less that 50 % of the population). Wouldn't it be natural and comprehensible for them to apply racist laws ?

Well, what would concern me now is that white people are suppose to be a minority in America by mid century if birth rates continue as they have, and I have no problem with that. Just because they are Muslims, black, hispanic, etc, I have absolutely no problem with that. But this just may be because I'm me though. Though speaking of that, a whole lot of people are concerned with these sort of things. White power groups in the United States are bigger than they have ever been here. I find no problem with this 'racial timebomb' because I think they have every right that I do.

Edit: Also, I don't see how exactly 'racist' laws could be applied in a democracy considering that by then it would be too late because [insert race here] is no longer the minority, and if it is done too early than the law will be declared unjust by whatever each country's version of the supreme court is, assuming they have one.

Its not a double post when its done 24 hours after the first post. You should know that, go read the rule again. In the meanwhile, your temporary banned. =P

In the rules I only see stuff that talks about bumping that is 7 days old + not on the first page. In fact, I don't see anything about double...triple...quadruple... posting at all...

[TrongaMonga]

Why's not my country there? It's part of the EU

Anyway, my first step would be to ban religion, actually. That way only muslims who are smart would come to my country

Now, without jokes, I live here, and I know the problems of illegal immigrations. Even though it is not good to close the borders to them, we can not allow such a gigantic boom of population as the one to come if the immigration continues as it is.

On a side note, I was quite serious on religion banning

[Iliaran]

the EU should open its door to mexican workers, while closing its door to muslim immigrant.

Legalize persecution! I love it! While we're at it...what about all those Canadians all over the world? I say lets cleanse this world once and for all!

(no offense meant to Canadians...just an example...im sure nobody took offense at your anti-islamic comments)

and the question you pose "What would you do concerning the demographique time bomb in Europe" is based on the assumption that there IS a demographic (note the spelling...last time I checked...this is an English forum) "time bomb" in Europe, which you've yet to prove. In the language of pragma-dialectic logic, you've created a little thing known as a 'false dilemma'.

Ban religion

Wow...you beat me to it... that's what I was just thinking, let's just ban religion! While we're at it...what other civil liberties should go next? I say skipping in public...

[B~E]

Originally Posted by Iliaran

Legalize persecution! I love it! While we're at it...what about all those Canadians all over the world? I say lets cleanse this world once and for all!

(no offense meant to Canadians...just an example...im sure nobody took offense at your anti-islamic comments)

I made anti-islamic comments ? No, in no way didn't I ever said that their culture or religion was wrong. In fact, I didn't even aborded a single cultural caracteristic of islamism. Yet, you say I made an anti-islamic comment. Come on now.
On the contrary, insteed of attacking this culture, I raised a completly different question, which is stated below.

Originally Posted by Iliaran

And the question you pose "What would you do concerning the demographique time bomb in Europe" is based on the assumption that there IS a demographic (note the spelling...last time I checked...this is an English forum) "time bomb" in Europe, which you've yet to prove. In the language of pragma-dialectic logic, you've created a little thing known as a 'false dilemma'.

Here's a good proof that there is a demographic problem in europe. Its actualy common knowledge. I assumed everyone knew about it and that it didn't needed to be backed with facts.

edit : hum, ok, I've been going through some of those website in the link I posted, and yea, they contain questionable material. Or at least a questionable view of geopolitics and culture. Still, I think that, overall, it raise a good issue that can't just be dismissed as mere hate-stuff and excuses for persecutions.

Nevertheless, now that we know there is a demographic implosion in europe, and that it is coupled with a immigration flow from muslim countries, can we actualy affirm that this could cause a serious cultural problem, even resulting in a cleft country ? And what should be done with this, if anything at all ? Certainly, inaction isn't an option here, multiculturalism has its limits. The question im asking here is, shouldn't a native culture have the right to protect itself through any reasonable means, if the need arise, even if it is called "persecution" ?

And I'd like it if we wouldn't sink to the level of calling me a racist, because that would only prove that this as become a taboo subject.

[Galatia]

The *flow of muslim immigrants* to E.U. countries is almost non-existing since the early '90s. Since then, E.U. countries have been flooded with immigrants from the Eastern European countries ( Russians, Romanians, Polish, Checks, Bulgarians, Albanians - you name it). That was the real *immigrant flow* in Europe during the last years and it still is.

Contrary to the popular belief, those immigrants are the only hope for the European citizens of my age (and younger) to enjoy comfortable retirement. Due to the fact that Europe is not having children (very low feritlity rate) future predictions talk about a serious problem for the retirement plans of younger generations, unless the system is enriched with *new blood*.

[B~E]

Of course the flow of immigrant is vital for the future of your countries. It is for mine too, because we have a similar demographic problem. What im saying is, should the E.U, or any other country, take some sort of mesure to better assimilate immigrants, may they be muslim, orthodox, asian, whatever.

I pointed muslim people because, from what I have heard, they where the main immigrant force. And altough eastern europeans are the number one immigrants right now, according to you, it doesnt mean that mulslim are migrating less than before, they still represent a large minority. Furthermore, eastern european share a common history and a common religion with most of western and central europe, so the cultural shock isn't that rough.

[Galatia]

So your real question is how (and if ever) Islam can co-exist with the Western Culture?

[B~E]

Thats one of the question raised. Another one is if anything should be done at all because it can be seen as persecution, or if our value of multiculturalism are still relevant in a world where we have a negative fertility rate and a harder time assimilating immigrants.

I haven't really said my opinion yet, because before doing so, I whant everyone to ackowledge that there is a problem, that, as it is said in another site, ALL peoples of European descent are in a demographically perilous situation, and ALL need preservation. Those who claim otherwise are simply and objectively incorrect.

Simply put, rigide, nationalistic, xenphobic spatian-like societies are bad, for obivious reasons, but multiculturalist, free, anthenian-like societies like ours have their downsides too, and I think that we're going to face one of those downside at one point. Is there realy anyone naive enough to think that times haven't changed enough yet for us to beforced to adapte ?

[Iliaran]

I'll start off by adressing a couple of unjustified claims you make before delving back into the topic:

And I'd like it if we wouldn't sink to the level of calling me a racist, because that would only prove that this as become a taboo subject.

1) No straw men please.
2) Don't bifurcate arguments.
3) And finally, attack my arguments, not me.

Yet, you say I made an anti-islamic comment. Come on now.

Oh please,...don't even bother. Yes you did (implicitely):

Premise 1: There's a 'demographic time bomb' in Europe
Premise 2 (implied):
Conclusion: Therefore, Muslims shouldn't be allowed to immigrate to Europe

I think you're intelligent enough to fill in the blanks for yourself.

and that it is coupled with a immigration flow from muslim countries, can we actualy affirm that this could cause a serious cultural problem

Correlation does 'not' imply causation. They're mutually exclusive. Just because an event 'A' occurs in close proximity with an event 'B' does 'not' in any way suggest that A causes B (or vice versa). Really, you should know better...

Here's a good proof that there is a demographic problem in europe

You still haven't proven a thing. A demographic time bomb? Yea...right. The 'loss' of culture is an inadverdent consequent of development; it can't be avoided. Yet you attribute this so called 'time bomb' (presuming such a thing exists) solely to the immigration of Muslims into western European countries.

You offer a google search link as 'proof'? I'm sorely tempted to post a couple of ludicrous google searches of my own (though I won't for the sake of this thread).

Common knowledge? So if I hopped on the next plane to Tokyo, and asked the first person I saw about some demorgraphic time bomb in Europe...

and...looking at this from another perspective: "come on! everyone knows that the world is square!" Claiming that something is common knowledge doesn't make it so. Indeed, I could argue that no knowledge is 'common' knowledge save for 'a priori' knowledge.

shouldn't a native culture have the right to protect itself

Before I start, I'm going to define culture as:
"The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization." (dictionary.com)

If I were Japanese, and immigrated to say...South Africa, how would my cultural practices have any effect whatsoever on South African culture? I mean...I'd maintain my culture by eating Japanese food, speaking Japanese, acting Japanese, thinking like any normal Japanese person would, etc... Yet I wouldn't be imposing my cultural practices on anyone else.

(I can essentially argue that culture is an illusion though which we, as humans, seek to differentiate ourselves from others in a subconscious quest in search of what's we've come to identify as 'individuality'... I actually wrote a paper on that not so long ago for a seminar)

Hence, I question your claim that culture needs to be protected.

multiculturalism has its limits

Really? I wasn't aware. Please, do enlighten me.

a large minority

erm...

So your real question is how (and if ever) Islam can co-exist with the Western Culture?

That's a gross oversimplification of the underlying issues being discussed here. Please, enough with the straw men.

Those who claim otherwise are simply and objectively incorrect.

Oh my... where do I start?
so...you're writing off EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T AGREE WITH YOU as wrong? right...
lets see... I could refute the premise of your claim...
or... I could simply try smashing that wall of ignorance you're hiding behind
or...

And yes, cultures need preservation. Female genital mutilation was, until rather recently, a cultural norm in several African countries (I realize this thead centers on European culture, yet culture isn't a concept limited to Europe, and hence my example). Is that the sort of 'culture' you want to preserve? What about misogyny in 17th century European society?

Edit:

Simply put, rigide, nationalistic, xenphobic spatian-like societies are bad, for obivious reasons, but multiculturalist, free, anthenian-like societies like ours have their downsides too, and I think that we're going to face one of those downside at one point.

Do me a favor..less fluff. more substance. kthx.

[Galatia]

Quote:
So your real question is how (and if ever) Islam can co-exist with the Western Culture?

Originally Posted by Iliaran

That's a gross oversimplification of the underlying issues being discussed here. Please, enough with the straw men.

Racisism is the result of fear: Fear of the different. There are no *underlying issues* here, mr. Iliaran. Only products of this fear, which is a very simple and primitive human fear. *Oversimplifying* complex theories is usually the only way to reach the root of the problem. And the root of this particular problem is whether Western culture can tolerate Islam and vice-versa. But thats not a European problem. Its a global problem.

As for the *democraphic time bomb* of Europe, there is indeed one but its not the one you are talking about in this thread, guys. The real demographic time bomb in Europe is the low fertility rate. Check your data, plz.

[Tipsy]

Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm

Thats one of the question raised. Another one is if anything should be done at all because it can be seen as persecution, or if our value of multiculturalism are still relevant in a world where we have a negative fertility rate and a harder time assimilating immigrants.

I honestly could care less about multiculturalism. Who cares if there is a wide variety of culture in a country or not, let the people who come into the country legally, regardless of if they are Muslims or not, decide how they want to live their lives. If it is for the worse, than so be it, if it is for the better, so bet it, let the people who want to come to whatever country come there free and live there free.

Is there realy anyone naive enough to think that times haven't changed enough yet for us to beforced to adapte ?

I really don't see how we are adapting by stopping the flow of a specific type of immigrants. Just because they worship a different God how much of a difference does that make?

Oh please,...don't even bother. Yes you did (implicitely):

Premise 1: There's a 'demographic time bomb' in Europe
Premise 2 (implied):
Conclusion: Therefore, Muslims shouldn't be allowed to immigrate to Europe

I think you're intelligent enough to fill in the blanks for yourself.

Look at it from both sides. In one person's eyes it could be a 'demographic time bomb', in another person's mind it could be a blessing. As for the demographic time bomb, a whole lot of people, especially with the estimates of caucasian people becoming a minority by mid century has caused 'White Power' groups to be at an all time in high the United States. The reason he brought this topic up is because it actually has been starting to cause political problems in some European countries.

You still haven't proven a thing. A demographic time bomb? Yea...right. The 'loss' of culture is an inadverdent consequent of development;

And could one call a 'loss of culture' a time bomb? Could another dispute that? It all comes the point of view, and B~E still hasn't even said what he thinks yet. I personally don't consider it a time bomb, but I can clearly see from what rather problems it has caused so far could be considered a time bomb.

Yet you attribute this so called 'time bomb' (presuming such a thing exists) solely to the immigration of Muslims into western European countries.

That’s where the majority of the political problems around immigration in Europe are coming from. Take a look at some of the things that have happened with Muslim immigrants in France.

You offer a google search link as 'proof'? I'm sorely tempted to post a couple of ludicrous google searches of my own (though I won't for the sake of this thread).

I think it proves that some people believe it is a demographic time bomb quite clearly. I am not saying it is true, but a lot of people do believe it is.

Common knowledge? So if I hopped on the next plane to Tokyo, and asked the first person I saw about some demorgraphic time bomb in Europe...

I personally think that anyone who keeps up on world events fairly well knows about it. I think he was talking about that group when he said common knowledge.

so...you're writing off EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T AGREE WITH YOU as wrong? right...

Once again, B~E said in his post:
"I haven't really said my opinion yet, because before doing so, I want everyone to acknowledge that there is a problem, that, as it is said in another site, ALL peoples of European descent are in a demographically perilous situation, and ALL need preservation."
Since he has only stated a fact and not an opinion then I don't see how you cannot agree with him. There are many signs of this type of thing becoming a time bomb as many groups wish to retain what they consider their culture.

And yes, cultures need preservation. Female genital mutilation was, until rather recently, a cultural norm in several African countries (I realize this thead centers on European culture, yet culture isn't a concept limited to Europe, and hence my example). Is that the sort of 'culture' you want to preserve? What about misogyny in 17th century European society?

I don't see what preserving culture, the thing is regardless of whether you think so or not, the Muslim immigration, and different groups becoming a minority, can and most likely will cause some sort of problem. It could even get to the point where a political leader takes power off this sense of anti-[insert group here]. Is it a time bomb, yes. Maybe the time bomb which has already begun stirring up trouble will end up spewing out candy, or maybe it will end up erupting. The point of this thread is not to talk about if the time bomb exists, because it definitely does, the question that you should be asking yourself is if you believe it is more likely to come out good (the candy) or bad (the eruption) and what should be done about it.

The real demographic time bomb in Europe is the low fertility rate. Check your data, plz.

Isn't it more of the combination of both? Because if there was low fertility, and low immigrants to match, not much would change. It is the fertility lowering and the immigrants rate staying above that which is causing it.

Anywho, this is just saying that there is a time bomb, regardless if you want to see it or not. I have said above and still think that the people should be allowed to come free and live free.

[B~E]

Actualy, im only posting this to bump this thread so the topic by yoshirule will disapeare from the main page. =/

And I'll get back to this thread monday.

[Ntrik_]

I dont understand, why would you want to eliminate Muslims only? Because of their religion? Or overflowing population in Europe?

Seems like total racism against one ethnic culture And Im sure there are many "white" Muslims, in the world I believe only 20% of Mulims are middle eastern, rest are black, white, asian, etc..... (sorry for the language usage, if you take any offense, pm me)