Yet another WW2 thread

[Undead Cheese]

Originally Posted by Kuzmich

By D-day, Stalingrad has already happened, German war machine was reduced by over a half after being defeated by Russian forces. D-day made almost no difference.

This implies that more than half of Germany's army was destroyed. Looking at the numbers, Germany lost 2,850,000 troops out of the 12,500,000 it mobilized, or about 22.8%. Unless you're including industry and stuff, which was primarily hit by British and American bombing raids. And, ignoring D-Day, the British and the American forces were pushing into Europe through Italy at around the same time that Germany surrendered at Stalingrad (a couple of months later to be precise, though they had been fighting in Africa for a while before then).

[B)ushid(o]

Originally Posted by Kuzmich

Do you suggest that Japan had any chance of winning a war with USSR? That is completely absurd. We had bigger population, bigger army, better technology.

As I remember, the only fighting between the USSR and Japan was in 1938-1939.

By the time the Soviets might have declared war on Japan, the rest of Asia would most likely be under their control. Though the Soviets would have probably beaten the Japanese, it would have been a long, drawn out war causing more suffering for Asia.

Japan's attention wouldn't have turned to the USSR immediately, but rather, to Southeast Asia and the rest of China where they could have easily beaten the British/Dutch/Southeast Asian forces without much hassle and break the already collapsing Chinese forces. It would also leave them in control of the seas of that area and in control of the abundant material.

Stalin wouldn't have declared war on Japan until German forces were collapsing, and without U.S intervention, the British would have had a much more difficult time gaining a foothold in Europe. The USSR would have probably needed to push into parts of Western Europe and maybe even into Italy.

If Japan had complete control over the Pacific Islands and Southeast Asia, they would have had enough material to build more aircraft, more ships, etc.

Let's say, in an alternate timeline where the U.S never fought against Japan, nor fought in Europe, the Soviets and the Japanese went to war around the Spring of 1945 (when the German military most likely would have collapsed), the Japanese would probably have superior air and sea forces since air and sea power wouldn't have meant much to the Soviets against Germany. Japan could have easily destroyed docks and strips on the coast of the USSR without much resistance. It could have also become a foothold in the USSR. Japanese forces in China would have been crushed by Soviet ground forces pretty easily, with exception of the mountains of China. The Soviet's large army would have had trouble in the jungles of Southeast Asia and against forces on islands.

Just saying that without the U.S, Asia would have been harder won.

[B~E]

Actualy, if the japanese would have made their sneak attack on Russia insteed of pearl harbor, the russians would have lost.

[Kuzmich]

What is your problem Black? Your assumption is incorrect, and Russians most certainly would have won. We defeated their whole army in China, we repelled them several times in 1938 and 1939, Japanese would have no chance against the Red Army.

Originally Posted by Ashigaru

I'll be the bigger man and just ignore that.

Good for you Ashigaru, don't let the facts get in a way of your childish, unsupported dilussions.

Undead_Cheese, the amount of German troops on all the Western fronts combined is no there near the number on the eastern front. For that reason, D-day can not be viewed as anything crucial to the allied victory.

Bushido, one thing wrong with your assumptions, Japanese forces in China were defeated by the Soviets in under two weeks in real life yet you claim that they would somehow win? Navaly, Japan would probably be superior to USSR, but air force wise, no way. USSR's production at this point was 3rd largest on earth, plus we had planes from the west as well as our own all in numbers and quality that Japanese could simply not match. Their navy would be defeated eventually cause they lack natural resources to maintain supremacy over an extended period of time, if they are only superior at sea.

[Firebat]

anyhow the japanese empire pwned the russians in 1904-1905, totally destroyed their naval forces, lol

and i must add, without the help of the american engineers etc, the russians would only have had a huge army of footsoldiers, cus all of their technology was rubbish.

Omg the americans even sent over whole factories in order for the russians to produce their famous tanks

and cmon dude admit it, during the second world war, most of the fighting against the japanese was done by the americans, you cant deny that, dont forget the reason for their capitulation were the 2 nukes. Those crazy japanese fanatics would have otherwise carried on until the whole population was dead.

[Ashigaru]

Originally Posted by Kuzmich

Good for you Ashigaru, don't let the facts get in a way of your childish, unsupported dilussions.

Still the arrogant son of a bitch that left and came back for god only knows why.Don't worry I still love you :grunt

Just admit it, your mad cause you know the US can kick your sorry commie asses.

[B~E]

Kuzmish and Ashigaru, I can tolerate, to an extend, the amalgam of insolences and historical facts you two dare to call a discussion. But when your posts are devoided of anything contributing to the topic at hand, it cannot be allowed, and warnings and sanctions will follow.

If you must, just take it to the pits of the Asylum, alright ? =)

[Kuzmich]

Originally Posted by Firebat

anyhow the japanese empire pwned the russians in 1904-1905, totally destroyed their naval forces, lol

and i must add, without the help of the american engineers etc, the russians would only have had a huge army of footsoldiers, cus all of their technology was rubbish.

Omg the americans even sent over whole factories in order for the russians to produce their famous tanks

and cmon dude admit it, during the second world war, most of the fighting against the japanese was done by the americans, you cant deny that, dont forget the reason for their capitulation were the 2 nukes. Those crazy japanese fanatics would have otherwise carried on until the whole population was dead.

OMG! Please, i beg you, learn history!

Yes Russia lost Russo-Japanese war, but that wads because we war in a great tactical disadvantage, the Japs sneak attacked our port, blocked the way to it, making the rest of our fleet completely useless. But there was a 40 year difference betwenn 1905 and world war 2. USSR was an industrial nation, much more so then the Tsarist Russia. It is impossible to compare Russian abilities in 1905 and 1940s, in 1940s they were hundred's of times greater.

Now that other piece of clear bs. Just pick up a history book man, common, please! Our technology was in some cases better then american, we broke the sound barrier, before the americans, right before the world war 2 began, our tanks were better then ones in America, our standard issue sub-machine gun was more durable and carried a larger magazine, IL-72 was one of the best ground attack planes of WW2 and you didn't even have an alternative to a Katyusha! As for you transporting factories to us. Ah, sorry man, you didn't. You are either misinformed or not informed, so just get informed!

Yes US did most fighting against Japanese, there is no question about it, but there is also no question that USSR would have the same ability to defeat Japanese as US did.

Still the arrogant son of a bitch that left and came back for god only knows why.Don't worry I still love you

Just admit it, your mad cause you know the US can kick your sorry commie asses

Great debating Ashigaru, you have been prooven wrong, so instead of atleast trying to rebute and defend your weak argument you try to insult me and change the topic to an weaker and less supported one. You sir are a fine example of a type of people that should be kept illiterate for humanitie's sake. You are ignorant, young and foolish, nothing more, nothing less.
Black aren't you supposed to clean up what he just posted?

Also Black sorry for telling it like it is to that guy, but he doesn't listen to facts, to logic and doesn't have the leastest idea of how to effectively build an argument. He is irrational and i don't like that kind of people. Once again i appologize to you Black.

This place needs people who know how to debate, like you and me. Maybe this forum is just not build for that...

[Ashigaru]

Originally Posted by Kuzmich

OMG! Please, i beg you, learn history!

Yes I agree, WW2 is the only important event in history

Originally Posted by Kuzmich

Great debating Ashigaru, you have been prooven wrong, so instead of atleast trying to rebute and defend your weak argument you try to insult me and change the topic to an weaker and less supported one. You sir are a fine example of a type of people that should be kept illiterate for humanitie's sake. You are ignorant, young and foolish, nothing more, nothing less.

I wasn't aware I ever tried to make a strong argument. Meh, whatever.

[Firebat]

Kuzmich can you give me some proof for the stuff your saying? for example the so called "economic strenght" of the ussr during WWII, their so called "technological superiority of america during WWII, and that they did all of that without the help of America.

and about the factories and the ****ed up economy of the russians, i read it in a history book. It may be true that russia devoloped remarkable weapons during wwII but without the technology, tools and money supplied by the americans this wouldnt have been possible.

why do u think russia was lying in such a big financial dept to the USA? cus they borrowed billions of dollars.

[Kuzmich]

US lend-lease didn't give us money or technology, it did however give us a great deal of food (most of which never actually got to our soldiers) and proccessed materials like aluminum for plane building. Some of our technology was superior to yours, some of yours was superior to us, plane wise you were ahead of us, our WW2 era supersonic fighters, were never put in service, because by the time they were completed, it was already 1944 and Germans were loosing the war, with most of their airforce destroyed, Stalin felt like massproducing those would be a waste of money. Tank wise we were ahead of you, a Sherman stood no chance against a T-34 of KV-1 or the IS, even with an attached rocket launcher (only few hundred of Shermans ever had those attachments), plus value per unit ratio...Russian tanks were simply better.

@Ashigaru: No its not the most important event in history, there is no single most important event. But the thing is, you don't anything about history as a whole not just WW2, so i am asking to please read a book.

[Ashigaru]

Originally Posted by Kuzmich

@Ashigaru: No its not the most important event in history, there is no single most important event. But the thing is, you don't anything about history as a whole not just WW2, so i am asking to please read a book.

And yet you dont answer the question presented in my other thread, how odd.

[Kuzmich]

Originally Posted by Ashigaru

And yet you dont answer the question presented in my other thread, how odd.

Which question are you refering to? I must have missed it. What thread?

[Firebat]

Kuzmich btw, im not american

[Kuzmich]

Okay, and i said you are?

[B)ushid(o]

Originally Posted by Kuzmich

Bushido, one thing wrong with your assumptions, Japanese forces in China were defeated by the Soviets in under two weeks in real life yet you claim that they would somehow win?

1. Never claimed they would have won, I just said it would have been much costlier.
2. Defeated a poorly-trained/equipped army
3. Everything the USSR's army learned during the war with Germany was geared towards large land battles. If the USSR had needed to push deeper south into the jungles of Southeast Asia, they would have been in the same disadvantageous position Japan was put into in the battles in China.

Navaly, Japan would probably be superior to USSR, but air force wise, no way. USSR's production at this point was 3rd largest on earth, plus we had planes from the west as well as our own all in numbers and quality that Japanese could simply not match.

The quality of Japan's airplanes met the quality of Soviet planes every step of the way, though it's true that Japan probably couldn't have matched Soviet production.

Even taking all of continental Asia, how would the Soviets take Japanese-held islands?

[Kuzmich]

Well we did take a number of Japanese islands, if you don't remember, our territory stretches just a hundred miles or so from their mainland.

[B)ushid(o]

The difference is that the Japanese didn't exactly have a navy or air force when the USSR took the couple of Japanese islands. Hell, they barely had anything left.

[Kuzmich]

Japanese would still eventually loose, for they same reason they lost to US, they didn't have enough natural resources to run their navy at its full power for a long time, in 1942 already it was being shrunk because of lack of oil.

[Firebat]

Originally Posted by Kuzmich

Okay, and i said you are?

you kept on saying " your " "yours" "you" etc..


and also, during WWII the japanese had a better navy than the USSR