Abortion

[The_Raven7]

Originally Posted by Maddox

Looking for a safe stance on abortion? Me neither.

I'm tired of political candidates pussy-footing delicately around the issue of abortion. Every time I turn on the TV, there's always some group of hippies protesting "for choice" or "for life." Each group pisses the other off, and no candidate will take a strong enough stance on the issue of abortion, so I've decided to form a political party of my own:



The Regressive Party
I have a different stance on abortion: I'm against abortion, but for killing babies. That way everyone loses, and I win. I'm neither pro choice, nor pro life; I'm pro you-shutting-the-hell-up. The only way I'd be "pro choice" is if it meant I could choose which babies I could abort, and only then if I could lift the age restriction to 80. I was at this mall the other day watching some shitty documentary when I came out of the theater and saw old people dancing to country music in the courtyard. I couldn't remember the last time I saw a group of people begging this hard to be aborted.

Originally Posted by Moronic Billboard

PRO CHOICE MEANS: 12 million Americans killed last year.

Uh-huh, and Pro-life means 12 million:
-abortions that would be performed anyway
-babies with a motherbourne std
-kids that would grow up in horrible enviroments
-orphans that would be run around from place to place, being adopted and reboarded, and otherwise deprived of a real life
-orphans that would grow up homeless and have to live the "ghetto" life

[B~E]

This topic has been debated many times in other threads of this forum. Your banned.

Originally Posted by The_Raven7

Uh-huh, and Pro-life means 12 million:
-abortions that would be performed anyway
-babies with a motherbourne std
-kids that would grow up in horrible enviroments
-orphans that would be run around from place to place, being adopted and reboarded, and otherwise deprived of a real life
-orphans that would grow up homeless and have to live the "ghetto" life

You do know here that your basicaly trying to make the act of being born sound worst than the act of being avorted. Do you understand how little sense that makes ?
In my opinion, adoption here would solve everything, because being adopted, even if you have a hellish life, you still get a chance of improving latter on, and its a hell of a lot better than being avorted. Plus, in adoption, your mother gets rid of you, you get to live, and everybody is happy.

Let me point out that, whatever your stance is, abortion should always be allowed when the mother's life is in danger. Then again, whats sort of women wouldn't give her life for its children, I dont know.

[Sakuhta]

Originally Posted by The_Raven7

Uh-huh, and Pro-life means 12 million:
-abortions that would be performed anyway
-babies with a motherbourne std
-kids that would grow up in horrible enviroments
-orphans that would be run around from place to place, being adopted and reboarded, and otherwise deprived of a real life
-orphans that would grow up homeless and have to live the "ghetto" life

It's the parents fault for getting an stf or having sex young in their own damn stupidity. If you have an std why have unprotected sex again? It's the parents fault and they should not kill a child because of their mistake.

And I'd rather have been born with an STD or a horrible environment, then to have never existed.

[amrtin77]

It's the parents fault for getting an stf or having sex young in their own damn stupidity. If you have an std why have unprotected sex again? It's the parents fault and they should not kill a child because of their mistake.

wait a few years.. yull change your mind. mistakes happen... what if the pill doesnt work? what if the condom is flawed? mistakes happen. and if oyu dont want it, get rid of it before it becomesa living thinking thing. get rid of it while its just a bundle of cells, not when its a fetus.


im for abortion when its in the early stages, before the baby is really anything formed.



i pretty much agree with BE here though.





the problem i see is, we need a strict ****ing time limit that this is when its considered a human, and this is when its not a human. we have legal issues with killing pregnant women, if you kill her, does it county as double murder? if yes, then why is abortion legal? wouldnt that be murder?

if its only counted as one death, then abortion is fine.


at what point should we consider the fetus human? thats the real question.

[B~E]

How about we consider the foetus in potential of what it will end up to be ?

[amrtin77]

how the hell do you expect us to harvest stem cells then

[B~E]

So your basicaly trying to find a technicality, instead of a real reason, for allowing steam cell reserch ? Your strating on the wrong foot here, you do know you'll end up defending an immoral position, and we'll end up having citations of the bible up our ass.

[jd-inflames]

I kind of decided not to read this thread simply because due to skimming I saw a lot of people who think that it's wrong.

Now honestly, do you remember when your mother was in that stage of pregnancy? No. Wanna know why? Because you aren't developed. At all. What a women does with her body is her own choice. If she feels that she isn't fit to be a mother or feels that she isn't healthy enough to have a successful delivery, or just simply doesn't want to go through the pains, she should be allowed to abort it.

And no matter how much you want to believe it, condoms, spermacides, birth control, ANY kind of contriceptive is not 100% effective. It happens. I have a friend who was born after her parents used condoms, BC, AND spermacide. The chance is 1/1,000,000...but there is still a chance. Even using the pull out method there is still only a 1% chance of pregnancy. I've been using that method with the past girls I've been with mainly because both me and the partner didn't mind having children. We didn't really want it, but wouldn't mind it if we had 'em just because we were all really looking forward to parenthood. Of course that doesn't make it right, and I haven't gone without a condom in almost a month now...but just remember, inconvenient things happen. What matters is how you deal with it.

In my opinion, adoption is 10x worse than abortion. If I had grown up knowing I was adopted, I would have rather not existed at all than knowing that the people who concieved me didn't want me and gave me away like yesterdays trash. Yes, I would rather be destroyed the proper way than thrown away.

[Samsara]

I personally believe that abortion is a terrible thing but what's even worse is living in an orphanege feeling unwanted. I say keep abortion until the adoption rates go up.

[-Moo-]

Originally Posted by amrtin77

how the hell do you expect us to harvest stem cells then

Stem cells can be harvested from many places...Although the best stem cells do come from fetuses, stem cells can also be found in blood from adults, and blood that comes from the mother after giving birth. Umbilical cords also contain very good stem cells. I personally think it is wrong to kill something that is or is about to be living just to take its stem cells and use them to help yourself.

[amrtin77]

Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm

So your basicaly trying to find a technicality, instead of a real reason, for allowing steam cell reserch ? Your strating on the wrong foot here, you do know you'll end up defending an immoral position, and we'll end up having citations of the bible up our ass.

i have real reasons to allow stem cell harvesting. you can easily porduce whatever kinds of cells someone may need to survive... they have a lack of something, use an aborted fetus to get stem cells... theyre easy to repoduce large amounts of them. you dont have to keep using aborted fetuses over and over.. you can replicate them. and you could help many people with diseases simply by letting people abort fetuses if they dont want to have kids.. or dont want the kids to have to grow up a shitty life. not to mention what we could do with babies before their born... if we can clone people we can biologically enhance people before theyre born. kickass. raise the standard of living all the way around.


and moo... in a fully grown adult, why would there be any stem cells? all stem cells are is cells that dont have a real purpose yet. they are not formed into any specific type of cell. they can turn into anything. where would you
find that in anything fully grown..?


edit: not sure what happened with the double post, just delete the post above when ya see this BE or macman ;P

[-Moo-]

Apparently there are blood stem cells. I found this article talking about it:

http://www.marrow.org/DONOR/abcs_blo...lantation.html


Here is another article talking about how the umbilical cord stem cells are effective:

" MILWAUKEE, Nov 24, 2004 (United Press International via COMTEX) -- A new study confirms stem cells from umbilical cords of newborn babies are a viable transplant source for leukemia patients with no other treatment option.

The research was done at the Medical College of Wisconsin in Milwaukee and the results were published in the Nov. 24 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine.

Nearly 16,000 leukemia patients diagnosed each year require a bone marrow transplant, but have no matched relative or can't find a match in the national bone marrow registry, says Mary Horowitz, M.D., senior author of the study.

Horowitz, who is scientific director of the Center for International Blood and Marrow Transplant Research, said "umbilical cords that are normally discarded after birth could provide real hope for these patients."

His study included an analysis and comparison of treatment results in more than 500 adult leukemia patients undergoing transplant. The study included patients, ages 16 to 60 years who underwent transplants in the United States during a six-year period ending in 2001. "

( From: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/n...ory_21492.html )

I think it would be much better to have an umbilical cord donated to provide stem cells rather than a fetus.

[amrtin77]

those adult stem cells can only turn into blood cells.. stem cells from fetuses can turn into anything our body needs.

sure, they have their uses, but not nearly as many uses.

[AZN_FLEA]

abortion is murder to one who is purely innocent, they should have a chance at life. they may have a shitty time but one of the aborted kids might have been the new president of USA or something.
what also disturbs me is the birth that takes place in labs. no mother or father that borned them, just the cells from them. this defiles morality

[amrtin77]

im not even going to ****ing bother... id just like to let you know you should really think before you post.

[Tipsy]

Oh well, time to go on yet another religious rant, but you probably saw that one coming, didn't you...

Edit:

and we'll end up having citations of the bible up our ass.

Lol, looks like BE saw it coming.

Looking for a safe stance on abortion? Me neither.

I'm tired of political candidates pussy-footing delicately around the issue of abortion. Every time I turn on the TV, there's always some group of hippies protesting "for choice" or "for life." Each group pisses the other off, and no candidate will take a strong enough stance on the issue of abortion, so I've decided to form a political party of my own:

I said this in a different thread but I will repeat it here, Bush is the biggest pro-life president in history. Just so no one gets confused, pro-life refers to abortion only. Bush support a ban on all abortion with some exceptions in the cases of death in both, death in mother, etc.

Uh-huh, and Pro-life means 12 million:

Must say that is quite a bullshit number. I am against abortion and it is on average 1.5 million abortions per year.

-abortions that would be performed anyway

They would most likely be less common.

-babies with a motherbourne std

Are you saying just because someone has a defect of disease they don't have the right to live?

-kids that would grow up in horrible enviroments

This is a complete stereotype, many people these days who want kids but can't physically have them have to adopt from out of the country because they cannot get any in the country. This mostly applies to very young children such as the ones who would not be aborted. Also, I would rather live in a crummy environment than not live at all.

-orphans that would be run around from place to place, being adopted and reboarded, and otherwise deprived of a real life

Stereotype.

-orphans that would grow up homeless and have to live the "ghetto" life

Stereotype.

This topic has been debated many times in other threads of this forum. Your banned.

You've made my day.

wait a few years.. yull change your mind. mistakes happen... what if the pill doesnt work? what if the condom is flawed? mistakes happen. and if oyu dont want it, get rid of it before it becomesa living thinking thing. get rid of it while its just a bundle of cells, not when its a fetus.

How bout just not having pre-marital sex. In my eyes it is the parents fault because they shouldn't be having sex unless they want to procreate.

Now honestly, do you remember when your mother was in that stage of pregnancy? No. Wanna know why? Because you aren't developed

I don't remember the day I was born either, even though I was devleoped.

At all. What a women does with her body is her own choice. If she feels that she isn't fit to be a mother or feels that she isn't healthy enough to have a successful delivery, or just simply doesn't want to go through the pains, she should be allowed to abort it.

So if I don't want to go through the pain of listening to you then I can murder you because it is my body and I can choose what I see in this forum. No offense intended at all.

I personally believe that abortion is a terrible thing but what's even worse is living in an orphanege feeling unwanted. I say keep abortion until the adoption rates go up

Thats like saying you should go commit suicide when you are clinically depressed. Just because your life is shit at one point, the beginning in this case, doesn't mean it will always be that way.

Also, I just want to point out that i'm against stem cell research and such in general just so no one asks why I didn't reply to each and every post talking about them.

[Nermal]

One of those eternal subjects where no one will ever agree on one final answer.

I think it's hard for guys to actually understand how a women feels regarding this issue, they are not the ones who get pregnant.

Sure.. abortion means ending the 'life' of a (potential) human being. But then, you have to consider that some people do not want children at all, or don't even have the means to do so. Yes.. adoption exists.. but still a girl would have to go through 9 months of unwanted pregancy, drop school (or work) for a month and then give birth to a baby and give it away? B-E was telling me 'Oh it's because it gets in the way of your career then?' well.. that's kind of true. If you can't afford to take that month off, money wise or whatever the reason.. should you still go through all that? I'm not sure..

Both abortion and adoption leave VERY HEAVY scars on a women. Either way it hunts them. But when a girl realizes she's pregnant.. and can't afford it (despite the age).. her first thoughts turn toward abortion of course. I'm not saying it's right to do so, but I do think there are times where the adoption solution isn't always the best either. 9 months we're talking about! It's a whole 9 months in her life.. if she can afford to do so! Then please do! But if she can't.. then maybe abortion is a good answer.

If a girl gets raped and gets pregnant? Should she keep it? for 9 months reminding her she was raped? It's a tricky subject with many different possibilities in it. I just think it all comes down to a decision made between the two parts involved (or one in some cases).

And is there a right time to do so? Before it's a 'living organism'? I quite frankly don't know.. either way.. you end it's 'possible life'. In some cases it might be better.. in others.. there might be other ways.. it's just one of those endless subjects with pros and cons either way. Maybe the cons are in greater number.. but then again.. have any of you gotten pregnant and had to think of that? I hardly think so.. ^^;

[Undead Cheese]

Originally Posted by jd-inflames

Now honestly, do you remember when your mother was in that stage of pregnancy? No. Wanna know why? Because you aren't developed. At all.

Do you remember your first two months of life? No? Should that fact have granted your mother the right to jam a knife into your skull during that period in your life?

Originally Posted by jd-inflames

What a women does with her body is her own choice.

Yes, it is her choice to do whatever she wants with her body. She chose to have sex, fully understanding the potential consequences of this action regardless of the contraceptive(s) used. As is applied to the rest of society, your rights are limited to the point where they do not infringe on any other person(s) rights.

Originally Posted by jd-inflames

If she feels that she isn't fit to be a mother or feels that she isn't healthy enough to have a successful delivery, or just simply doesn't want to go through the pains, she should be allowed to abort it.

No, in that case she shouldn't have had sex.

Originally Posted by jd-inflames

And no matter how much you want to believe it, condoms, spermacides, birth control, ANY kind of contriceptive is not 100% effective.

Here's a contraceptive that's 100% effective: not having sex.

Originally Posted by jd-inflames

It happens.

No, it doesn't simply "happen." The woman willingly chose to have sex and thus accepted any consequences that may occur as a result of her actions (not applicable in the instance of rape, in which case I support abortion)

Originally Posted by jd-inflames

but just remember, inconvenient things happen.

Those "inconvenient things" only happen as a result of actions the persons involved chose to perform. (again, not applicable in the instance of rape)

Originally Posted by jd-inflames

In my opinion, adoption is 10x worse than abortion. If I had grown up knowing I was adopted, I would have rather not existed at all than knowing that the people who concieved me didn't want me and gave me away like yesterdays trash. Yes, I would rather be destroyed the proper way than thrown away.

Just like you said, that's your opinion. Unless you can tell me that, without a doubt, 100% of adopted persons would prefer death over what they were given, then you have absolutely no right to make that decision for them.

Originally Posted by Nermal

But then, you have to consider that some people do not want children at all, or don't even have the means to do so.

I guess she shouldn't have had sex...

Originally Posted by Nermal

Yes.. adoption exists.. but still a girl would have to go through 9 months of unwanted pregancy, drop school (or work) for a month and then give birth to a baby and give it away?

I guess she shouldn't have had sex...

Originally Posted by Nermal

B-E was telling me 'Oh it's because it gets in the way of your career then?' well.. that's kind of true. If you can't afford to take that month off, money wise or whatever the reason.. should you still go through all that? I'm not sure..

I guess she shouldn't have had sex...

Originally Posted by Nermal

I'm not saying it's right to do so, but I do think there are times where the adoption solution isn't always the bet either. 9 months we talking about! It's a whole 9 months in her life.. if she can afford to do so! Then please do! But if she can't.. then maybe abortion is a good answer.

I guess she shouldn't have had sex...

Originally Posted by Nermal

If a girl gets raped and gets pregnant? Should she keep it? for 9 months reminding her she was raped? It's a tricky subject with many different possibilities in it.

If the woman was raped or will not survive child birth, then I'll support abortion in those cases.

Originally Posted by Nermal

And is there a right time to do so? Before it's a 'living organism'?

I'd say no later than 10 weeks into the pregnancy.

[Nermal]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nermal
And is there a right time to do so? Before it's a 'living organism'?


I'd say no later than 10 weeks into the pregnancy.

But then.. you're still killing a 'potential' living organism is what I was saying. Whether it be 1 or 15 weeks into pregnancy.

Of course, I'm not saying that abortion is right or wrong.. everyone has their own answer to that, nothing anyone says can actually change how someone feels about it. There are obvious cases were it can be 'helpful' (i.e. rape or low survival chances), but then.. if it's right for those cases, why shouldn't it be for others? Either way it is ending a 'potential' human being life.

In the end.. the decision really comes back to how the woman feels through this. And many of you probably don't know that through an abortion process, you have a psy, a doctor and a third person assisting you in making sure you are not going to regret your decision. Until the last minute they leave you the decision and they really try to make you reconsider. Of course that doesn't justify the act. Whether that decision is right or not, is really up to the woman if you ask me. I personally believe that if a woman judges she cannot bare the responsability, and can't think of adoption, then she might as well do it. That doesn,t justify anything, it's a personal choice she'll have to live with for the rest of her life.

It's my own opinion on the subject. I know many won't agree. But if some people make an exception, than why shouldn't everyone be allowed then? or not? Let's get back to the example of a girl who is raped. Her life isn't in danger and yet.. for 'sanity' reasons (let's put that as a main cause here), she could be allowed abortion. Then what about the countless other women, who had 'accidents' happen and can't bare the emotionnal/physical/economical/etc burden it presents? Should they be allowed to? I did write 'burden' in the pure sense of that's how they feel. I'm not saying a child is necessarely a burden.

This is a subject that touches many different aspects. If it was abortion only, it wouldn't be as complicated.. but then you always the possible 'adoption' option. It's very tricky to have one opinion in my case according to this subject.. but I'm simply emitting the possibility that there's more than one level to this. Especially being a girl myself, I can feel how a woman's logic would work in both cases..

(hope that made sense.. anyway.. ^^

[sam_the_man]

i dont agree with abortion - just because the unborn dont have a say in whether they are allowed to "live" or not, it doesnt mean they should be killed because some ignorant teen decided to not use protection. (ya, ya, i know there are those cases where victims of rape sometimes become pregnent with the offspring of the rapist ... and how theres never a clear-cut answer to this question.)

but it doesnt matter if people disagree of not with abortion, because theres nothing we can do about it anyways. If a mom wants to have an abortion, its her decision and her decision alone. Just because we think its wrong, it doesnt mean it will stop happening.