Thought on homosexuality and same sex marriage

[B~E]

I posted this in a tatu forum. I'm garanted to get strong result, especialy if I prove them all wrong. I'll argue as the devil's advocate, of course.


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The most acceptable reason, or cause, for homosexuality is that it is a genetic defect, like being a lefty. And, since they are a minority with counter-productive behaviors to society (i.e not making children), we could say that homosexuality, is, in fact, a defect, not a condition, and certainly not a choice.

However, the cause and nature of it is irrelevant. What truly matter is that people, regardless of their sexual orientation, have a choice betwen giving in to their pulsions or not, they still have freewill. Which mean an homosexual could, against his nature of course, make love to a woman/man, and make a familly. But it also mean that he does not have to give in to his pulsions, the same way a pedophile do not have to give in to his pulsion, either. The difference betwen the two is that homosexual relations are armless to the parteners, though.
But in our society, homosexuality is generaly accepted for the sole reason that we're secular. We just dont give a shit what two consenting adult do in a bedroom, because religion do not hold so much power as it did before. So, since homosexuality is generaly accepted in our society, homosexuals have no reason not to give in to their pulsion, which is understandable.
But as for religous marriage are concerned, they are religious, and as such, opposed to homosexuality. This institution is supposed to be a contract with God, and God isn't, according to His book, too fond of homosexuality. According to religiong, homosexual are gifted with as much freewill than any anybody else, and therefore, they are not excused for giving in to their pulsion. After all, we're not animal, right ?
Therefore, a religious marriage is bogus from the start, which mean they should content themselve of a civil union, since the state is secular.

[OMGLOLWTFPWN]

I'm a little confused do you say you believe this or just posting it to see what responses you get? Anyway I don't know if they would be able to be with a woman, if they "can't get the little guy up and running". Just remember they are people too and they deserve respect, choosing one way of living their life is their decision, no one will condemn you because of your choice of careers or your hobbies. With all the emphasis on being straight in society today I seriously doubt anyone would make the choice to be gay, seeing how they can be treated, the most common reason is probably just something natural from birth.

[B~E]

Its... well, I have no real belief on the subject, and I'm hoping to have on by creating discussions...

Anyway, I already agree with most of what you said, except of thing : I never talked about respecting them or not. This is about if they should be able to have a religious marriage.

[OMGLOLWTFPWN]

Well the bible says God doesn't like homosexuality, but it also says to be accepting of other people doesn't it? I'm not sure on that but I would assume it's in there somewhere . I can see why some people might think they shouldn't be married in a church because christianity is against homosexuality, but it is also against other things such as pre-marital sex, divorce, etc. and plenty of people who are married under the church do this too. I guess it's just another way that religion has begun to change over the years, and some things that used to be considered very wrong are gradually accepted.

[dreamcrusader]

Liberals are always whining about the "seperation from church and state" so why are they trying to change the church? Isnt that "seperation from church and state"? I dont mind gays being married under like a civil union but this has me kinda agravated.

[B~E]

Originally Posted by TreeFrog123

Well the bible says God doesn't like homosexuality, but it also says to be accepting of other people doesn't it?

I can see why some people might think they shouldn't be married in a church because christianity is against homosexuality, but it is also against other things such as pre-marital sex, divorce, etc. and plenty of people who are married under the church do this too.

And this is, actualy, wrong. Its not because some people indulge in certain sins and get married that we should let other people indulging in other, even more obivious and blatan sins get married, too.

I guess it's just another way that religion has begun to change over the years, and some things that used to be considered very wrong are gradually accepted.

Here, you seem to think that change is always a good thing. But change isn't always acceptable, or good for the majority. Here, we're talking about depriving the meaning of a extremly old institution, and I dont see how this is good. The Church think that homosexuality is an abomination, and as such, should allow them to marry. Its as simple as that, isn'it ?

[Emperor Pan I]

Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm

The most acceptable reason, or cause, for homosexuality is that it is a genetic defect, like being a lefty.

So because alot of people decide to use thier right hand, suddenly those who use thier left hand have a defect? What does that make people who can use both? Are they half defective, or just a little less defective?

And, since they are a minority with counter-productive behaviors to society (i.e not making children), we could say that homosexuality, is, in fact, a defect, not a condition, and certainly not a choice.

counter-productive to you. Know what I think, 6 billion or whatever crazy number of people on planet earth is obviously, how can i put it... TO ****ING MUCH. What is more screaming mouths in this world? There is no use for the thousands of unemployed people, thousands of starving. they do not work, they do not eat they take up space.

homosexuality? maybe its natures way of telling us, to QUIT HAVING SO MANY ****ING CHILDREN.

However, the cause and nature of it is irrelevant. What truly matter is that people, regardless of their sexual orientation, have a choice betwen giving in to their pulsions or not, they still have freewill. Which mean an homosexual could, against his nature of course, make love to a woman/man, and make a familly. But it also mean that he does not have to give in to his pulsions, the same way a pedophile do not have to give in to his pulsion, either.

So if they can control themselves, we have no problems. we shall expect them to never do what they are biologicaly told to do, but instead everyone who we deem "right" can do whatever we feel that some god says is only right

But in our society, homosexuality is generaly accepted for the sole reason that we're secular. We just dont give a shit what two consenting adult do in a bedroom, because religion do not hold so much power as it did before. So, since homosexuality is generaly accepted in our society, homosexuals have no reason not to give in to their pulsion, which is understandable.

This I have to strongly disagree with. On paper, we "accept" it, and laws say we cannot act agaisnt our prejudice, so it gives that all to comforting illusion that we are accepting. All we are is a society where we still have the prejuidce, that you cannot act upon, except if your the president or the church and "God" speaks to you and tells you what is right or wrong, and becuase of your holy revelations and a book that was written by man, and not God an unknown number of gays and lesbians cannot have equal rights everyone else can. Even though everyone is "created equal"

Then when you look back, to say Greece where it was common for men and women to be homosexual and bisexual. Where in certian areas you were encouraged to be a homosexual, having sex with women only to reproduce. Yet Homosexuality is a defect, and all these people, even the famous names who created the most famous paintings and sculptures during the Renaissance are all defective.

But as for religous marriage are concerned, they are religious, and as such, opposed to homosexuality. This institution is supposed to be a contract with God, and God isn't, according to His book, too fond of homosexuality. According to religiong, homosexual are gifted with as much freewill than any anybody else, and therefore, they are not excused for giving in to their pulsion. After all, we're not animal, right ?

The Bible is not Gods book. the Bible was written by man, it is nothing more than a book of fairy tales and myths. The Bible was printed, and everthing relating to it in "the name of God" is nothing more than the catholic church testing its powers on the teeming masses. the pathetic religious idiots who beleive what they are told. who writes history for you to read?

[Laharl]

Nicely put Pan, I like.

You know, Black~Enthusiasm, there are far too many people on this planet. FAR too many. And heterosexuals are just having more and more children. Is this a problem? Yes it is. If this keeps up heterosexuals will bring the human race to it's knees, or if it isn't already completely wipe it out.

Secondly, AIDS and other stds are spread a lot by heterosexuals and unprotected. Gay guys are FAR more likely to use protection than str8 guys are, and are therefore safer even especially since str8 guys have the added threat of pregnancy.

Originally Posted by dreamcrusader

Liberals are always whining about the "seperation from church and state" so why are they trying to change the church? Isnt that "seperation from church and state"? I dont mind gays being married under like a civil union but this has me kinda agravated.

Dreamcrusader, allowing same sex marriage would be seperating state from church. Since the state is now officially in charge of marriage. Also, about "civil unions" read the topic started by me called "Equal?! That's not equal!!" or something to that effect.

Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm

Its... well, I have no real belief on the subject, and I'm hoping to have on by creating discussions...

Anyway, I already agree with most of what you said, except of thing : I never talked about respecting them or not. This is about if they should be able to have a religious marriage.

Black~Enthusiasm, you appear to have a "real belief" to me. *shrug*

The most acceptable reason, or cause, for homosexuality is that it is a genetic defect, like being a lefty. And, since they are a minority with counter-productive behaviors to society (i.e not making children), we could say that homosexuality, is, in fact, a defect, not a condition, and certainly not a choice.

Wow. So having children validates you to god and society? I must go out and have a few! No, not four, need some more. That's what that statement is encouraging.

Also, if it's genetic, as you yourself have said, then how can you condem or restrict somebody based on it? And if it's genetic, as you have said, than how can GOD condemn any of his own creations that he had deliberately set up for failure? So either god made a mistake, or god is not good. And both are harmful to the church.

Also, religion is NOT NEEDED for a "marriage". I could get a "marriage licence" from the government without talking to a single minister or person in the church. Whether it is done in a church or not is just a niceity. Ultimately it means nothing.

:grunt

[OMGLOLWTFPWN]

What I'm trying to say is that you can't be against one sin and not the other, they are the same thing. And the changing views are a good thing, those ideas were created a long time ago when people were a lot less accepting of the way other people behaved, and slowly we start to accept people's differences and slowly break down the barriers between us.

[B~E]

Black~Enthusiasm, you appear to have a "real belief" to me. *shrug*

I know I must start to look like your religious type, but ironicaly, its only because I'm playing the Devil's advocate.
If I wouldn't do it, there would be no discussion on the subject in the first place. And in the end, by testing our arguments like this, aren't we all learning stuff ? Isn't great and fun ?

Originally Posted by Pan

So because alot of people decide to use thier right hand, suddenly those who use thier left hand have a defect? What does that make people who can use both? Are they half defective, or just a little less defective?

I had read somewhere that people who were born left-handed were born so either because of birth stress or because of genetics, but I can't find anything to back me up on this right now, so let just forget about it. :P

on the subject of overpopulation

counter-productive to you. Know what I think, 6 billion or whatever crazy number of people on planet earth is obviously, how can i put it... TO ****ING MUCH. What is more screaming mouths in this world? There is no use for the thousands of unemployed people, thousands of starving. they do not work, they do not eat they take up space.

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You know, Black~Enthusiasm, there are far too many people on this planet. FAR too many. And heterosexuals are just having more and more children. Is this a problem? Yes it is. If this keeps up heterosexuals will bring the human race to it's knees, or if it isn't already completely wipe it out.

First of all, show me a source saying that the population increase in the USA is a problem.

Second, you believe there is too many people on this planet ? Perhapes there is an overpopulation problem in China, Japan, Africa and even the midle-east, but they aren't concerned about the same sex marriage issue. Only the Western world is concerned by it.
But what make your overpopulation argument flawed is that, in the west, there isn't any overpopulation problem. In Europe, even with immigration, the population is expected to shrink in a few years. In Canada, the population is stable, thanks to emmigration, but expected to shrink in some places, too. Now, in the USA, the population will keep growing up to 419.9 million in 2050, but the primary reason U.S. population is projected to reach this number is mass immigration.
Therefore, even if you prove me that over population could be a problem in the usa, gay marriage as nothing to do with population control, the very idea of it is stupid. Its an emmigration problem.

homosexuality? maybe its natures way of telling us, to QUIT HAVING SO MANY ****ING CHILDREN.

This is the most random thing anyone said in this thread. There have been homosexuals since ever, and they haven't increased in percentage.

So if they can control themselves, we have no problems. we shall expect them to never do what they are biologicaly told to do, but instead everyone who we deem "right" can do whatever we feel that some god says is only right

In society, this isn't true, since religion hold no power, but as far as marriage is concerned, since its a religious institution, yes, they have to play by the rules, as religion see fit, wether they like it or not. Its the whole point of my opposition to same sex marriage.

This I have to strongly disagree with. On paper, we "accept" it, and laws say we cannot act agaisnt our prejudice, so it gives that all to comforting illusion that we are accepting. All we are is a society where we still have the prejuidce, that you cannot act upon, except if your the president or the church and "God" speaks to you and tells you what is right or wrong, and becuase of your holy revelations and a book that was written by man, and not God an unknown number of gays and lesbians cannot have equal rights everyone else can. Even though everyone is "created equal"

I guess its safe to say that our perceptions of the treatment of homosexuals in our society must vary greatly, since we come from a wide ranger of place and culture. But in my opinion, at least in large urban area, any homosexual could come out with is lover, and kissing him/her on their way to their club, without any one honestly giving a damn. With the failiur of Bush's gay marriage ban, and the mass same sex marriage going on, I believ its safe to say that their situation isn't bad in our society, and that its getting better, too.
Plus, they have their own parade.

Then when you look back, to say Greece where it was common for men and women to be homosexual and bisexual. Where in certian areas you were encouraged to be a homosexual, having sex with women only to reproduce. Yet Homosexuality is a defect, and all these people, even the famous names who created the most famous paintings and sculptures during the Renaissance are all defective.

Homosexuality is a defect in the sense that it is abnormal, it miss somethig to be like the majority. Who care if the use of the word defect is derogatory, by definition, homosexuality is defective.

The Bible is not Gods book. the Bible was written by man, it is nothing more than a book of fairy tales and myths. The Bible was printed, and everthing relating to it in "the name of God" is nothing more than the catholic church testing its powers on the teeming masses. the pathetic religious idiots who beleive what they are told. who writes history for you to read?

So, religious people are pathethic idiots for using the bible as a reference book ? This doesn't make any sense, for the book is the fondment of their belief system : they would be pathetic idiots for not using the book , not the other way around. Plus, they is no point in showing disrespect toward religious people, is there ?

Originally Posted by Big-Fat-Homo

Secondly, AIDS and other stds are spread a lot by heterosexuals and unprotected. Gay guys are FAR more likely to use protection than str8 guys are, and are therefore safer even especially since str8 guys have the added threat of pregnancy.

This, being true or not, as nothing to do with same sex marriage. At all. =)

Dreamcrusader, allowing same sex marriage would be seperating state from church. Since the state is now officially in charge of marriage. Also, about "civil unions" read the topic started by me called "Equal?! That's not equal!!" or something to that effect.

I haven't read the topic your talking about, since I think it was about cigarret, but if you suggest it, I will.
Anyway, allowing same sex marriage would result in taking out the religious meaning of it, since religion and homosexuality conflict because God recognize homosexuality as a sin. Now, my question is, why take out the religion out of religious marriage ? You already have civil union, isn't that enough ? Plus, stripping out religion out of marriage will make it completly pointless.

Wow. So having children validates you to god and society? I must go out and have a few! No, not four, need some more. That's what that statement is encouraging.

Having children as nothing to do with society or even God, I was merly using this as an argument to prove that the inability to conceive a child make you defective. So there is no need to mix society, or religion, to this.

Also, if it's genetic, as you yourself have said, then how can you condem or restrict somebody based on it? And if it's genetic, as you have said, than how can GOD condemn any of his own creations that he had deliberately set up for failure? So either god made a mistake, or god is not good. And both are harmful to the church.

Very good question. How could God condemn someone to an eternity of damnation, based on a criteria that the person is born with ? Its actualy very simple : you have a choice to give in to your homosexual pulsion, or to restrain, and since we have a choice, God see it as a sin. So He basicaly expect anybody born with homosexual tendency to be chaste all their life. I know, its unrealistic, and unfair, but this explain why he can chose homosexuality to be a sin.

Also, religion is NOT NEEDED for a "marriage". I could get a "marriage licence" from the government without talking to a single minister or person in the church. Whether it is done in a church or not is just a niceity. Ultimately it means nothing.

Yhea, I know, so homosexual should content themselve with a civil union.

[t.A.T.u97]

I think it should be allowed, gay marrige should be allowed if divorce is. People say Marriage is a sacrid thing but divorce is allowed. You're sposed to spend the rest of your life with that person.

Anyway, I also say love is love. I don't met someone and force myself to love them, it just happens. I don't choose who I love either. Homosexual people happen to fall in love with someone the same sex. It doesn't really matter if they are the same sex, its love. I think two people in absolute love with eachother should get married.

[B~E]

So it should be allowed because divorce is ? First of all, they are completly two different thing, they aren't related, they dont have the same consequences. While divore isn't seen with a good eyes by religion, same-sex marriage would completly stipoff the religious meaning of marriage.
Furthermore, your argument could be summed up like tis : " since we'Re already screwing up something, why not screw it more ?"
Now, I'm not saying divorce could be qualified as "screwing" marriage, but it certainly attacked its credibility. So why continue ? What kind of self-destructing logic is this.

[t.A.T.u97]

Divorce is unholy matrimony as gay marriage would be. In fact, Gay marriage would be better than getting divorced, at least its love.

[Kuzmich]

Gay marrige is fine if all they do is register for it in a specific department and get their preacious tax cut. But gay marriage is completely absurd if you talking about going to church and declaring your marriage as to be aproved by God. Bible opposes homosexuality, it is prosecuted by bible. So if there is a God he would never aproove of such a thing as gay marriage.

[B~E]

Originally Posted by Kuzmich

Gay marrige is fine if all they do is register for it in a specific department and get their preacious tax cut. But gay marriage is completely absurd if you talking about going to church and declaring your marriage as to be aproved by God. Bible opposes homosexuality, it is prosecuted by bible. So if there is a God he would never aproove of such a thing as gay marriage.

My point, exactly.

Originally Posted by t.a.t.u97

Divorce is unholy matrimony as gay marriage would be. In fact, Gay marriage would be better than getting divorced, at least its love.

May this be true or not (and it isn't), it doesn't change the fact that this is just some sort of "lets screw even more that we screwed before, since we already screwed once" kind if flawed, doomed logic.

[WildfireFX]

we have a few threads about this already, please argue your uneducated thoughts on them. Thanks.

[B~E]

Yhea... how about, no ?

[WildfireFX]

Sorry, just tired of hearing half assed theories and hateful people.

[Kuzmich]

I don't know about all the rest but i was stating pure facts based on logic in this thread. You wanna see someone uneducated look in the mirror.

[sKaD]

lol, god? What a joke.

Mariage is too.