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Old 10-20-2004, 03:48 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Low taxes or good public services?

There are several ways for a nation to carry out such basic things as health care and education. In many countries such things as heath care has public funding which is not the way in America where health care is based on insurances. The state's duties are much more extensive in Europe than those of America. In Europe this means that people have to pay a lot more taxes to cover these services. Some people think it would be more just if people wouldn't have to pay so much taxes and decide themselves what to do with their earnings. My personal opinion is quite the opposite because the European model ensures health care etc. for the less fortunate while the rich people can use the private sector.

It's an interesting fact that the American insurance based health care is actually a lot more inefficient in terms of GNP spending as the threshhold of using high priced doctors is nonexistent because the insurance will cover your expences. The state funded system has also its faults as we have seen in Finland. Public physician's pays are low because the funding has been cut down and this makes physician training less attractive. Furthermore, in Canada, and especialy in the case of Quebec, the free healthcare system has been in disaray since nearly a decade now.

I am willing to provoke a serious debate on this as public health care is facing some serious times. It's ironic that treating patients gets more expensive with all the new breakthrougs in medicine that require expensive appliances and training... :susp

Last edited by B~E; 10-20-2004 at 03:51 AM.
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Old 10-20-2004, 10:51 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I don't pay for health care just yet so I don't know too much information on this topic. But I *think* that if we lower the lawsuits on malpractice, health care cost can go down...?
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Old 10-21-2004, 12:06 AM   #3 (permalink)
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i'm a republican.

Lower taxes of course. this allows more buisness ventures and for hospitals to operate at lower costs. This also alows people to be able to pay for medical expences by having money in thier pocket.
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Old 10-21-2004, 12:50 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sicloan
i'm a republican.

Lower taxes of course. this allows more buisness ventures and for hospitals to operate at lower costs. This also alows people to be able to pay for medical expences by having money in thier pocket.
A free healthcare system does not determine the qualities of the hospital. In Canada, a citizen has the privilege of free healthcare, and yet, he'll enjoy also top notch, high quality services, especialy in western Canada. So it is possible to have both.
And you can't be serious when you say that a citizen will have more money to pay for a medical treatments if he live under a system without free healthcare. I mean, in a free healthcare system, its free. On the other hand, you have to pay 40 k to get a life saving operation such as a heart surgery
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Old 10-21-2004, 01:15 AM   #5 (permalink)
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1) GNP? net property income from abroad is irrelevant.

(note: I'm going to completely ignore everything all of you have said and apply a purely economical analysis)

I would argue that subsdized health-care services are, if applied properly, in the best interest of the general populace. I would also argue that taxes=good (if set at the right level).

Quick note before I delve deeper into the matter: If you don't understand what something means in the economic analysis that follows, look it up, don't even bother trying to come up with a counter-argument if you don't fully understand my argument.



(edit: the IC curves aren't supposed to cross, I just noticed that I accidently made them cross which would imply that Bob is intransitive)

Let's assume that a consumer, Bob is faced with a good A, healthcare, and a composite good, B. With a fixed level of income, 'I' Bob's budget line can be illustrated by Ph(H)+Pc(C)=I.

Note that Bob's maximum consumption of healthcare lies at (I/Ph, depicted by the x intercept), and Bob's maximum consumption of the composite good exists at the point (I/Pc, the y intercept). A tax of amount T would alter this in the following fashion:

Bob's new budget line would be equal to (I-T)=Pc(C)+Ph(H). This would, in effect, shift the budget line inwards. However, once the tax is applied to the price of healthcare, the new budget line exists at

(I-T)=Pc(C)+(Ph-Subsidy)(H), where the subsidy is X(a percentage value)*T, so Bob's new budget line exists at (I-T)=Pc(C)+(Ph-XT)(H). Now, the question here is whether (I-T)/(Ph-XT)>I/Ph (and hence, whether the 'maximum' amount of healthcare consumed by Bob is greater after the tax is applied).

Now, assuming Bob is rational (and hence has convex preferences), Bob's utility U, is a function of H, and C, so we can write U(H,C)=some function.

In light of the constraints placed on Bob by his income and the tax, Bob's trying to Maximize U subject to the constraint (I-T)=Pc(C)+(Ph-XT)(H). For the sake of simplicity, lets assume that Bob's utility function is defined as U(H,C)=C*H.

For the sake of simplicity once again, lets set Bob's income after the tax as It, and the price of healthcare following the government subsidy as Pht.

Applying a simple lagrange:

The partial derivative of U in terms of C is H
The partial derivative of U in terms of H is C

The partial derivative of It=Pc(C)+Pht(H) in terms of the lagrange multiplier (in terms of the partial derivative in terms of C): Pc
The partial derivative of It=Pc(C)+Pht(H) in terms of the lagrange multiplier (in terms of the partial derivative in terms of C): Ph

Hence, Bob's optimal bundle exists at where H(Pht)=C(Pc).

In light of the constraint It=Pc(C)+Pht(H), H=It-Pht(H), and C=It-Pc(c), hence, Bob's optimal bundle x exists at (It-Pht(H), It-Pc(c)), where Bob's utility is Pc(c)*(It-Pht(H)). Now, if Bob's new utility (It-Pc(c))*(It-Pht(H)) exceeds Bob's old maximum utility (I-Pc(c))*(I-Ph(H)), then the tax is 'good' because it increases Bob's maximum utility.

Where the tax is a 'good' thing, Bob's utility curve would be tangent to Bob's new Budget line illustrated by (I-T)=Pc(C)+(Ph-Subsidy)(H), where (marginal rate of substitution)(c,h)=Pc/Ph

(Note that I've completely simplified Bob's preferenecs and utility function, Bob's actual utility might be illustrated by a much more complex utility function)

In summary (this is an oversimplification of the above analysis), the tax can be a 'good' thing...it all depends on one's preferences and the location of one's utility curves in relation to one's budget line.

Last edited by Iliaran; 10-21-2004 at 02:44 AM.
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Old 10-21-2004, 02:16 AM   #6 (permalink)
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"good public services" and "the government" are two phrases which have never crossed my tongue in the same sentance.
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Old 10-21-2004, 02:21 AM   #7 (permalink)
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You'll excuse me, but if you can't admit that a marriage of efficiant healthcare and public services exist elsewhere in the world, I'll say that your love of private services isn't even rational anymore, its fanatical.
Plus, the possibility for one to be treated for is illness shouldn't be limited by money, it should be universally affordable, if not free.
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Old 10-21-2004, 02:24 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c9h13no3
"good public services" and "the government" are two phrases which have never crossed my tongue in the same sentance.
Thats because you are an American. If you were Sweidish - for example - those two words would always go together.
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Old 10-21-2004, 05:23 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Actually, having paid Health Care may be one of the reasons why America is a strong country, because, then, people have to work a lot in order to save some money just in case something mean happens.

But, then again, that's not fair, and shouldn't even be considered in a democracy.
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