Worst moment in US history?

[amrtin77]

i cant argue that weve never done bad things. all i can say is above all, we were trying to fight the enemies army. these guys BASE their war on civilians.

[Kamikaze]

Originally posted by amrtin77
i cant argue that weve never done bad things. all i can say is above all, we were trying to fight the enemies army. these guys BASE their war on civilians.

i'm really not accusing the U.S. of doing anything wrong.
there is no country on this planet which hasn't done something they're not proud of.

technologically they have no chance of beating you in conventional warfare and your military instillations are too heavily fortified for any type of guerrila attacks.
so whats the next best target? the people who are supplying your army, the civilians.

[raDixGhost]

I think watergate was one of the worst situations. It was truely Nixons fault, who the hell records everything they say, i mean if you are that dumb, you should get caught.

[bamthedoc]

If you want to know what Iraqi citizens thought of our tactics in Desert Storm, why don't you ask some one who lived through it? That is something that only the conservative media has done (unfortunately). An Iraqi now living in the US petitioned Clinton to go back and "fulfill" our promise to his people to free them from Saddam. I somewhat feel that breaking that promise twelve years ago and not going back (as we did with in the Phillipines -- I'm horid at spelling) was a huge mistake.

Anyway, getting back to what I was saying... This Iraqi citizen said, essentially, "It was, or would have been, worth it just to be rid of that tyrant and live free." In Deserst Storm, we really never got to where the cities were. In both Dester Storm and Iraqi Freedom, the extreme loyalists woud use civilians as human shields.

[SmashBros.Pro]

Originally posted by Kamikaze
i think you have been brainwashed by your governments propaganda. i don't in any way condone what happened, but to think that someone who is willing to die for what they believe in is cowardly is quite a statement.
by your reasoning kamikaze pilots in WWII we're gutless cowards.

what do you think that the iraqi army thought of your tactics in the gulf war?
aerial bombardment for a week followed by artillery fire for several days then sending in armoured divisions to clean up the few remaining soldiers who managed to survive.
this against an enemy whos most powerful weapons we're surplus WWII russian tanks.

was this a cowardly action on americas part, or was it something that had to be done to in order to achieve your desired objective with minimal casualties to you and your allies?

Amrtin77 pretty much summed this up for me. I say it was cowardly because it was a direct attack to the innocent civilians (well most of them were innocent) and to the mainland of or country. The Pearl Harbor attack was reasonable (not saying that it was good thing) seeing as how it was an effort to disable a military base.

I'm not saying the Kamikaze bombers were cowardly or gutless, but this is a whole different situation. The kamikaze bombers went suicidal as a last attempt to take out more soldiers. They didn't fly over with "Im gonna crash my plane into something" on their minds. The terrorist however, did it just because they don't like the way or country works.

It's good to stand up for what you believe in, but would you see it as a good thing if you lost someone close to you because they followed a different religion or belief?

[ORC-r0x0r-ROC]

Originally posted by bamthedoc
If you want to know what Iraqi citizens thought of our tactics in Desert Storm, why don't you ask some one who lived through it? That is something that only the conservative media has done (unfortunately). An Iraqi now living in the US petitioned Clinton to go back and "fulfill" our promise to his people to free them from Saddam. I somewhat feel that breaking that promise twelve years ago and not going back (as we did with in the Phillipines -- I'm horid at spelling) was a huge mistake.

Anyway, getting back to what I was saying... This Iraqi citizen said, essentially, "It was, or would have been, worth it just to be rid of that tyrant and live free." In Deserst Storm, we really never got to where the cities were. In both Dester Storm and Iraqi Freedom, the extreme loyalists woud use civilians as human shields.

well the media is only going to show the people who agree with the action.... and how do u know that the "extreme" loyalists would use civilans as human sheilds, pls dont become another US goverment brainwashed sheep

[BluddLuSt4Life]

well the media is only going to show the people who agree with the action.... and how do u know that the "extreme" loyalists would use civilans as human sheilds, pls dont become another US goverment brainwashed sheep

We know the "extreme" loyalists would use civilians as human shileds, because they DID. Didnt you see the pictures of the hospitals, with guns and rockets stacked next to hospital beds filled with injured children? Who do you think put that stuff there, anti-saddam freedom fighters?

[Torubu]

Worst moment in US History: The end of isolationism.

[amrtin77]

what? tell me how ANY country can stay isolated with so much techknowledgy today. the world is alot smaller than it was 1000 years ago, isolationism does not work, we tried it in ww1.

[Kamikaze]

Originally posted by SmashBros.Pro
Amrtin77 pretty much summed this up for me. I say it was cowardly because it was a direct attack to the innocent civilians (well most of them were innocent) and to the mainland of or country.

hiroshima, nagasaki and the march 10th fire bombing of tokyo in 1945..... so you are saying your own troops/grandfathers are cowards.

Originally posted by SmashBros.Pro
The Pearl Harbor attack was reasonable (not saying that it was good thing) seeing as how it was an effort to disable a military base.

pearl harbor was not reasonable, they attacked without warning a country that wasn't even involved in the war.

Originally posted by SmashBros.Pro
I'm not saying the Kamikaze bombers were cowardly or gutless, but this is a whole different situation. The kamikaze bombers went suicidal as a last attempt to take out more soldiers. They didn't fly over with "Im gonna crash my plane into something" on their minds.

actually they did. they all volunteered ahead of time to be kamikaze pilots.

Originally posted by SmashBros.Pro
The terrorist however, did it just because they don't like the way or country works.

the exact same reason the u.s. went to war with iraq.
it's also the reason why jfk was assassinated and your civil war occured... it's one major reason things happen.

Originally posted by SmashBros.Pro
It's good to stand up for what you believe in, but would you see it as a good thing if you lost someone close to you because they followed a different religion or belief?

i never said it was a good thing, i only said i don't see it as cowardly.
how would i feel if someone of a different religion killed someone i love? you mean its alright for someone of the same religion as me to kill someone i love?
who do you hate more, the muslim terrorists who killed your family in sept 11 or the christian terrorist who killed your family in the oklahoma city bombing.

you're not being discriminatory are you?

[amrtin77]

i think the japaneese attack of pearl harbor was completely acceptable. they didnt declare war, but our military is there to be ready at any time. they were caught off gaurd, oh well, they were well aware of the possibilities. the japaneese attacked our military, they fought people who knew what they were in for, and knew a world war was in progress at the same time they were in service. the japs foguht our military, but had they ever made a landing im sure they would have been just as brutal to the civs as they were in china... i have nothing against the kamikazes against us in ww2... they had guts, same as the terrorists, but the terrorists were doing that against defenseless civilians, not our army. why not crash a plane into west point?k ill our officers, not our civilians.

[Kamikaze]

did you forget they crashed a plane into the pentagon and one of the planes they hijacked never made it to its target.

some of the planes we're going after military targets and some we're just used to show the general population that no one is safe... hence why we called them "terrorists" and not "magical happy sunshine elves"©copyright2004.

[amrtin77]

yes i know, but i think civilians should be left out alltogeather. i dont like any attack on my country, but attacking civilians is completely unacceptable imo.... but you cant expect them to fight our government if they hate "our way of life." their target will always be the civilian population... i hate that. i hate all "holy wars." too bad people cant simply accept other peoples way of life. you see this ignorant bullshit everywhere but when you actually kill someone because of their way of life youve gone WAY to far.

[Kuzmich]

Originally posted by SmashBros.Pro
I think the worst thing in U.S. history is the attack on the World Trade Center. The reason I say this is because it was a cowardly and gutless attack which sparked what is going on overseas right now. Because of Osama, so many people have lost loved ones and everyday people are losing more because of the fighting going on in Iraq right now.

If we ever catch Osama death penalty wouldn't be good enough...

And u nuking Japan to solve all your problems wasn't cowardly?

[amrtin77]

i think nuking japan was the most effective way to end the war with japan with the least amount of casualties on both sides, but i still would not have done it if i was in control. id rather have a long drawn out bloody invasion of japan where the fighting was done between soldiers than blatantly kill thousands of civilians...

[Kamikaze]

Originally posted by amrtin77
id rather have a long drawn out bloody invasion of japan where the fighting was done between soldiers than blatantly kill thousands of civilians...

yeah, the only way to stop a war is to kill civilians.
theres no way you could force their surrender by blocking supply lines and imposing embargoes

[bamthedoc]

With Japanese mindset at the time? We keep forgetting that, at the time, the emporer was a god and everyone in Japan was willing to die for him. They would have fought to every last man, woman, and child. Hiroshima brought the "ceasefire" surrender from Japan, but the bomb to Nagasaki was dropped before the pilots recieved their orders to retreat. Everyone regretted dropping the bomb after they saw it in action, and we wished there was another way -- or other thoughts.

Was Pearl Harbor acceptable? No. Were the Nukes? Not really.

The major difference is that the our military at the begining of WWII was still in a seperatist mindset. We didn't think anyone could cross the Pacific to get to us without our knowing it. The Navy didn't know how far Japanese planes could fly, and they parked there ships just outside our patrol area. That's how they didn't know we sent more ships on patrol than normal, and that's how we didn't know they were coming (as that was the "final" warning sign). At the end of the war, Japanese knew defeat was imminent. They, however, weren't going to "let" themselves or country be captured. They knew we were coming.

[SmashBros.Pro]

Originally posted by Otmorosok
And u nuking Japan to solve all your problems wasn't cowardly?

We nuked Japan during a war, not at a random time just to start one. This is all I really have time to reply to, I'm gonna type more when I get back from the store.

[Kuzmich]

It wasn't random it was an act of holy war against your nation. Now Sadam is a traitor of his own religion because he started the holy war then his faith forbides him, but thats the whole other topic. And about Japan, you could at least let them go down with honor, fighting for their country, dropping a bomb on them was just like shooting them in the back.

[bamthedoc]

So you're saying you'd rather not have a Japanese culture now? We would have naught but archeological history on the Japanese if we didn't find someway to make them surrender. Would I have rather had another way? If I allowed myself to curse, you could expect a profane word before the Yes I have for an answer. Islam, technically, doesn't allow for Holy War. Nor does Christianity. Those facts have been forgotten in the Crusades and Jihad.

I'll also post some history, now.

President George Washington: The best way to pursue peace is to be constantly prepared for war.

That is quite profetic. Where do I get that? Pearl Harbor. World Trade Center. I'd go on, but those are the two biggest examples of "slumber" getting the best of us.