The Future of Battleforums

[Tipsy]

This is the thread talked about in this thread. As stated in the other thread, the purpose is:

Battleforums can always improve and it all starts with you. You, the members of Battleforums are what make the heart and soul of a forum. No matter how good the leadership or technical aspects of a forum, nothing can be done without you. With this in mind, there will be a thread made in the Arcane Sanctuary for you to voice your opinion on anything dealing with the state of Battleforums and your ideas for the future. You will be able to talk on any issue you wish, however civility is a must. I will be watching over the thread and will guarentee fairness for whatever you have to say.


We look forward to hearing your ideas. The future is in your hands.

[TrongaMonga]

To be honest, I do not appreciate how the administrator team is now in a different island than that of the rest of the memberbase. It has never been like that, and it saddens me.

Someone said to me more than one year ago, someone who is now an admin, that the admin team should have the respect of the members, and thus have absolutely no need to earn it, making their life easier. That is, to me, and in lack of a better word, bullocks.

Why? Because we're all people here. Respect is not something that is innate, it is earned. Some people have more a more innate easyness (sp ) to earn that respect, but this does not happen here.

As you can see, I am not naming anyone (despite the fact you all know who I'm talking about). I do want to start from the beginning. I hope this thread goes far.

[Eric]

I never said have no need to earn it. God you're just starting to make **** up now. You talk so much about wanting to start from the beginning, but can never quit running your mouth?

[TrongaMonga]

The above post is trolling and flaming. I am not making things up. I never said you said you didn't have to earn it. I only quoted that admins should have the respect, the obvious conclusion is that they do not need to earn it.

And you don't need to even say it. You act like it.

Is it such a lie? No, it isn't. If you do not think that way, then simply don't act like it.

You pretend to know my thoughts by the way I'm acting, can I not do the same? Yes.

In all seriousness, my post was serious and mature, and yours was not. I don't want to turn this into yet another of our arguments, so please leave your personal grudges against me outside of this thread.

[Lizardbreath]

Remove Tronga/Souless/Jenny/Gimmi and you have a better BF.

And we should sack our bstaff (minus the admins). They are all a bunch of misinformed bigoted assholes that use the internet to try and act cool.

[CelestialBadger]

As soon as I get my qt forum access back I'll copy over a post I made about the direction this forum should be headed as far as maintaining a stable memberbase and increasing traffic goes.

The only problem I see with what I had posted previously though, is that I don't think anyone is motivated enough to put too much real effort into this place. This forum seems to be more of a place where we come to relax and post and talk to familiar people. The problem with expanding the forum, is that we're not going to see any short term effects. It's something that we need to work on, knowing that it will only benefit us in the long term. And I don't think most people are dedicated enough to invest their time like that in real life, let alone on a forum.

With that in mind, I think we should be focusing on some more pressing short term goals. First and foremost - and I will keep repeating this and trying to make it happen until it actually does - is the issue of staffing. People who enjoy coming here need to know that the staff isn't just ****ing around with their positions. People come here to have fun, and they need to know that the staff is doing everything they can to make it possible for them to continue to have fun.

I think that starts with getting this idea out of our heads that people want "professionalism" from the staff. I'm not sure where that idea came from. It seems like just another buzzword that admins have been throwing around in order to make it look like their subordinates are doing a much worse job than they actually are.

My impressions of all of the staff below the admin level: They're incredibly in touch with what the members of this forum want. They know that you have to bend the rules a little bit if you want activity on this forum to continue. They know that infractions rarely ever make people reconsider what they've posted, and they know that it's not too much of a problem because - just grooving on your optimism theme here - we have a very functional forum, regardless of some minor trolling/flaming in chit-chat/whatever other bull**** we've been taking a lot of heat for lately.

Like I said in staff, if you look through the infraction discussion you'll notice that all of the infractions (there are maybe one or two exceptions) are coming from admins rather than staff. To me this indicates something other than an imminent problem with "forum trolls". It indicates that the admins are prioritizing incorrectly.

I don't think the administration here has a clear idea of what this forum's future holds, and so they're focusing on "professionalism" and rule enforcement. They want to make it clear that they won't take **** from anyone, and that they, and they alone are in charge. No matter what their reasons for this are, they have to realize how it comes across. It strikes me as a desperate attempt to show progress, while no progress is actually being made.

As I said, I don't even have a problem with no progress even being made. I know that it's going to be a huge task to improve the forums and bring in more traffic (and I'll post my suggestions for that as soon as I can access my post in qt), but if no progress is going to be made, I don't want to see the current memberbase having to suffer because the administration has nothing better to do with their time.

I do appreciate recent attempts that have been made to communicate more effectively. I think posts made in this thread prove that we have a really long way to go. And Tipsy, I'm really hoping that the admins will listen a whole lot better than they have to past GMs. As it currently stands, Ben is right: the GM position is pretty much useless, but I think if used correctly it would make it a whole lot easier for them to communicate effectively. It's easier for them to listen to you than it is for them to listen to all of the members here. I'm sure that you'll listen to input from the members; I just hope that the admins will listen to you. Good luck.

[Ninja_Blue]

Well, first off, I would like to state, this forum shoes a strong resemblance to a Tyranny, because one person could be backed by a bunch of members and staff, and he could somehow be made Admin(I really don't know how the Admin promotion goes, I'm just going off of what little info I have) and they could do whatever the wanted with the power, if someone was to get in their way/impede their "progress" they could just ban 'em.

We need to change this forum into a democracy (Or something like that) so everyone can decide who does what, by the appeal the member gives, and the respect they get. Being a member now-a-days on BF doesn't actually entitle you to anything. You are just another poster, just 1 man in the world.

[x42bn6]

Originally Posted by Ninja_Blue

Well, first off, I would like to state, this forum shoes a strong resemblance to a Tyranny, because one person could be backed by a bunch of members and staff, and he could somehow be made Admin(I really don't know how the Admin promotion goes, I'm just going off of what little info I have) and they could do whatever the wanted with the power, if someone was to get in their way/impede their "progress" they could just ban 'em.

We need to change this forum into a democracy (Or something like that) so everyone can decide who does what, by the appeal the member gives, and the respect they get. Being a member now-a-days on BF doesn't actually entitle you to anything. You are just another poster, just 1 man in the world.

Administrator places are never going to be up for vote. Before someone goes all orgasmic and says, "You'll never know unless you try," the amount of damage that can be done by the Administrator Control Panel is scary, and even the best of intentions and the people who appear to be the best candidates sometimes end up screwing up the forums. There are various examples.

And this forum is never going to be democratic for this very reason. Unless vBulletin manages to create a function where actions can be reverted instantly, that is never going to happen.*

[Bret]

Eric has been going completely off on Tronga the last while now. =\
An admin showing the public great relations. I thought was one reason Bstaff was off limits for viewing to the public. But I guess we might as well fully open up Bstaff since most the fighting and bitching is done outside it.

To further Battle forums, Tipps,
lets follow the rules and not flame people outside the asylum. Even then, people are taking it rather too far.

[Roach Of Discord]

Originally Posted by Tipsy

This is the thread talked about in this thread. As stated in the other thread, the purpose is:

Battleforums can always improve and it all starts with you. You, the members of Battleforums are what make the heart and soul of a forum. No matter how good the leadership or technical aspects of a forum, nothing can be done without you. With this in mind, there will be a thread made in the Arcane Sanctuary for you to voice your opinion on anything dealing with the state of Battleforums and your ideas for the future. You will be able to talk on any issue you wish, however civility is a must. I will be watching over the thread and will guarentee fairness for whatever you have to say.


We look forward to hearing your ideas. The future is in your hands.

Hmm..well, I'd rather read the opinions of our everyday members..but I guess I'll give my two cents.

My "vision" of battleforums is extremely simple, but it always gets complicated by various issues. Lately I feel I've been a bit thrown off by all of the drama..and yes, I have been concentrating on the wrong things. However, I don't believe that is completely my fault. The entire energy of this place has been negative..so..as I said in another thread, it makes most of us focus solely on the negatives, rather than the positives.

Anyway, this is what I feel BF should be: An inviting community for gamers (specifically blizzard gamers), where people can come by and discuss topics in a friendly non hostile atmosphere. Yeah, sounds simple..doesn't it? Well, it's not.

I think one thing that BF has always had going for it, is that it's quite newbie friendly. I don't want to loose that. I'd hate to think that this place turns into a forum where only the tough, elder members stay..and run out all the newbies with their attitude. I want this place to be inviting..so people aren't freaked out to ask a stupid question...or make an intro thread. Basically..this place needs a sense of community. Right now, it just feels like a forum...a forum where everyone hates each other. Not good...and if it continues down that path...the very people that are fighting for "freedom" and all that good stuff will lead this place to it's demise.

Now..

Originally Posted by CelestialBadger

I think that starts with getting this idea out of our heads that people want "professionalism" from the staff. I'm not sure where that idea came from. It seems like just another buzzword that admins have been throwing around in order to make it look like their subordinates are doing a much worse job than they actually are.

That's not what I think..and if you see that from me, you've mis-comprehended my actions and posts. I want the staff to be professional with each other. Of course, they need to be nice to the members and all that stuff..but a big problem around here is that the staff members are always at each others throats. When all that's going on..it creates an extremely negative setting...and makes me question why I even bother with a staff. Honestly, if the staff is just here to fight with each other..I might as well demod everyone and mod everything myself. Of course..that would never work...but I'm guessing you get my point. When I talk about professionalism, I'm talking about how the staff interacts with each other. I don't want them acting like teachers or something to the regular posters, of course. No one would like that.

Originally Posted by CelestialBadger

I don't think the administration here has a clear idea of what this forum's future holds, and so they're focusing on "professionalism" and rule enforcement. They want to make it clear that they won't take **** from anyone, and that they, and they alone are in charge. No matter what their reasons for this are, they have to realize how it comes across. It strikes me as a desperate attempt to show progress, while no progress is actually being made.

Once again, that's not my intention. Now that I think of it...I think the real issue is that we (the admins) expect more from the staff than we do the regular members. I never expect the regular posters to be perfect..or even close. However, a lot of the members are staff and really don't act like it. I think this is the bottom line.. if you want to have fun, and break rules...and tell us all to go **** ourselves, quit staff. You can't fight for all this freedom and lack of rules, while at the same time being expected to enforce them. It's like an anarchist taking the role of a president, it just doesn't work. Besides, you can help the forums you enjoy without even being on staff.

[Ninja_Blue]

I think you guys should just start the staff over with new people.
New competent people.

[Tipsy]

Originally Posted by Ninja_Blue

Well, first off, I would like to state, this forum shoes a strong resemblance to a Tyranny, because one person could be backed by a bunch of members and staff, and he could somehow be made Admin(I really don't know how the Admin promotion goes, I'm just going off of what little info I have) and they could do whatever the wanted with the power, if someone was to get in their way/impede their "progress" they could just ban 'em.

We need to change this forum into a democracy (Or something like that) so everyone can decide who does what, by the appeal the member gives, and the respect they get. Being a member now-a-days on BF doesn't actually entitle you to anything. You are just another poster, just 1 man in the world.

Tronga just brought this up in BStaff, but since you can't see it, I'll repost my response to his thoughts here:

Note: The G5 was a council created to attempt to deal with controversial situations with an unbiased opinion.

"The first problem is that no one actually brings up problems to groups like this. There seems to be a controversial thing every few months. The last one had the G5 created and nothing very controversial happened for a few months and the G5 fell apart. I see the same thing, most likely, happening here.

Assuming that there are things for this council to discuss, I think it would turn out to be a beaucracy. I personally think it would just put rules and regulations in the way and would put a useless strain on getting stuff down, something that is already rather strained. Don't get me wrong, the concept does seem good at first, I would have supported it if you had brought it up when I was supporting the G5, but when it was put into practice I lost faith in a council like this, whether elected or just members of staff, would work and I expect a similar result with this.

However, what would a post of mine be without suggesting a solution? Basically, I think we just need an arbitrator to moderate the claims between two parties. To be blunt, just add this responsibility to the job I was just given. Eric, Roach, x42, and I share a mutual respect so I think that if I brought something up to them they'd listen, and I don't know of anyone member who completely hates me so I think most members respect me enough to speak to the admins on their behalf.

As stated by Jim Morrison in the thread I made talking about taking my new job, my job is a "useless position" and Roach stated that my position has a "different purpose from other GM's" and I see this as just an extension of it."

The best thing would probably be public input, though not control, on who enters a position. If a lot of people want member x in a position and its obvious that it's a popularity contest then that can be ignored, however if someone recommends a person and has a valid reason then that can be helpful both public oversight as well as helping a job be done more efficiently.

Originally Posted by CB

I think that starts with getting this idea out of our heads that people want "professionalism" from the staff. I'm not sure where that idea came from. It seems like just another buzzword that admins have been throwing around in order to make it look like their subordinates are doing a much worse job than they actually are.

My impressions of all of the staff below the admin level: They're incredibly in touch with what the members of this forum want. They know that you have to bend the rules a little bit if you want activity on this forum to continue. They know that infractions rarely ever make people reconsider what they've posted, and they know that it's not too much of a problem because - just grooving on your optimism theme here - we have a very functional forum, regardless of some minor trolling/flaming in chit-chat/whatever other bull**** we've been taking a lot of heat for lately.

Like I said in staff, if you look through the infraction discussion you'll notice that all of the infractions (there are maybe one or two exceptions) are coming from admins rather than staff. To me this indicates something other than an imminent problem with "forum trolls". It indicates that the admins are prioritizing incorrectly.

I don't think the administration here has a clear idea of what this forum's future holds, and so they're focusing on "professionalism" and rule enforcement. They want to make it clear that they won't take **** from anyone, and that they, and they alone are in charge. No matter what their reasons for this are, they have to realize how it comes across. It strikes me as a desperate attempt to show progress, while no progress is actually being made.

As I said, I don't even have a problem with no progress even being made. I know that it's going to be a huge task to improve the forums and bring in more traffic (and I'll post my suggestions for that as soon as I can access my post in qt), but if no progress is going to be made, I don't want to see the current memberbase having to suffer because the administration has nothing better to do with their time.

This is being dealt with through redefining the roles of different staff levels and will probably be released soon. This will, most likely, fix the administrator handing out warnings/infractions scenario.

Originally Posted by Roach Of Discord

Once again, that's not my intention. Now that I think of it...I think the real issue is that we (the admins) expect more from the staff than we do the regular members. I never expect the regular posters to be perfect..or even close. However, a lot of the members are staff and really don't act like it. I think this is the bottom line.. if you want to have fun, and break rules...and tell us all to go **** ourselves, quit staff. You can't fight for all this freedom and lack of rules, while at the same time being expected to enforce them. It's like an anarchist taking the role of a president, it just doesn't work. Besides, you can help the forums you enjoy without even being on staff.

Personally, I think we should be stricter than we are on staff related violations of the rules and completely agree.



And a few people have voiced the opinion of reorganizing or 'sacking' the staff. Any suggestions by anyone on who they'd like to see staff organized to make Battleforums more efficient?


==========
Moderator Notice:
Keep in mind that this thread was created in the Arcane Sanctuary for a reason and any post that is a blatant insult will be removed or I will rephrase in a more diplomatic fashion if there is an actual point being made. After this post, there will be no further warnings and action immediately to anyone's post. There is a difference, for example, between saying someone is not doing their job well and that they are a douche as a [insert position here].

[Ninja_Blue]

If there isn't any like, codes, or anything that I really have to memorize, I would make an awesome staff. I've had my fair share of power, in many different forms, including bad and good times as a person of authority.

But hey, actions speak louder than words, eh?

[Galatia]

Originally Posted by CelestialBadger

I think that starts with getting this idea out of our heads that people want "professionalism" from the staff.

Professionalism is about knowing what your job is - and in the case of BF it's all about helping people have as much fun as they can. Professionalism is also about taking your job seriously - and not yourself.

[TrongaMonga]

Originally Posted by Roach Of Discord

That's not what I think..and if you see that from me, you've mis-comprehended my actions and posts. I want the staff to be professional with each other.

I'm not Staff, consider me a normal member that talks too much, but this is not how I'd recommend a member of the Staff, and specially an admin, to talk to a member of the forums:

Originally Posted by Eric

Hello,

It appears that item doesn't function. Thanks for the notification.

Best Regards,
Eric

BattleForums Administration

He also gave me my points back so I have no complaints about that service. What bothered me, though, is how Eric tried to be professional in private while being completly anti-me in public. It, I don't know, reeks of fakeness.

I seriously don't think someone should act professional in an online forum. If anything, they could be professional, with the definition Gally gave and with which I am completely in accordance to.

If anything, the Staff are no more than members that've been there for quite some time, and are thus dedicated enough to be patient to the tyranny the admins sometime show.

Now I am not saying the tyranny of the admin team is necessarily a bad thing. It only is when it sounds so fake that the members can not say anything else other than 'lol'. I know that, because I've done it. Yes, I had my mistakes too, that's why I resigned.

Honestly, if the staff is just here to fight with each other..I might as well demod everyone and mod everything myself.

You really think that'd change anything? People would still complain and fight, just wouldn't be mods. I mean, look at me

I will now quote a PM I sent RoaCh as of my not-so-well-written-but-similar-to-CB's opinion:

But I only want to remind you this is BattleForums, the very core of it means that enforcing the rules is stupid, specially in the way Eric's doing it. He's acting like the admin team is constituted by people who have to be too far away from the members, and it has never been like that.

Seriously, RoaCh, he talked to me even before I was admin, surprised, of how you could handle people by being nice to them. In his eyes, you had no respect from the members.

It's really sad that the admin team has been so separated from the rest of the member base, when you still are members as everyone else, and how he silences everyone he wants as he pleases.

I'd like to add to this that RoaCh himself is also a lot more away from the members than what he was one year ago.

But yes, I completely agree with CB. It's all I've been trying to say, although I do apologise I do not have the english speech skills he has.

[Roach Of Discord]

I don't have much to argue with that, becuase that's all your opinion. However, out of respect, i would ask permission before posting private pms. That's just me..you know..to avoid hostility. It's probably just a nice thing to do.

anywho..

I seriously don't think someone should act professional in an online forum. If anything, they could be professional, with the definition Gally gave and with which I am completely in accordance to.

If anything, the Staff are no more than members that've been there for quite some time, and are thus dedicated enough to be patient to the tyranny the admins sometime show.

Now I am not saying the tyranny of the admin team is necessarily a bad thing. It only is when it sounds so fake that the members can not say anything else other than 'lol'. I know that, because I've done it. Yes, I had my mistakes too, that's why I resigned.

The only thing I can say here is to all their own. I understand your thoughts on this..but if someone likes to talk in a more professional manner, by all means..let them. Whatever "Floats your boat". To a new member, they would probably feel good about a PM like that. However, to you...since you two have obviously been at each others throats like gay wrestlers (lawls!)..you feel differently about it, because you know we aren't always professional like that.

[TrongaMonga]

Well, I didn't think you'd be bothered because you're you, and that was actually my text

I apologise if you really wanted me to ask, though. Hey, at least we're talking in PMs now

In response to your paragraph, I just don't think an admin should talk one way in Private and another in Public

Besides, acting all profissional in an online gaming forum really is kinda retarded. I would much more prefer a personal post than a copy & paste PM. Yes, it might be my opinion, but hey, I've been here for long enough to have a feeling of what members might like.

I know we never liked formal blah blah

[Roach Of Discord]

Actually I was talking about Eric's PM to you..I couldn't care less if you leaked my entire PM box .

[TrongaMonga]

Ah, right.

I wouldn't post it here if it was personal. As it is all professional and shaite, I'm sure Eric doesn't have any problem with it. If he does, something's wrong there

[Lizardbreath]

If we just got rid of the 4 I posted about this forum would calm down quite a bit.