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11-12-2006, 02:50 AM
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#41 (permalink)
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God cannot create something that is so heavy he cannot lift it. That is because something so heavy that God cannot lift it cannot exist, it contradicts itself - that makes it impossible absolute. God could infinitely make something get hotter - unless you can provide for me a specific number at which infinity ends, then it contradicts itself making it impossible absolute. Omnipotence means God can do anything that is absolute possible even if it breaks the laws of the universe. Something that is impossible absolute is not a thing to do because it contradicts itself. God can do anything since any thing that can be done is possible absolute.
| Sorry I noticed a typo but yeah... You've stated that god isn't omniscent, but that doesn't mean he can not create something that he can not lift. You don't add a limit to infinity... it just goes on. What are you talking about...?
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11-12-2006, 03:28 PM
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#42 (permalink)
| Aya Matsuura is awesome
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy-man  Sorry I noticed a typo but yeah... You've stated that god isn't omniscent, but that doesn't mean he can not create something that he can not lift. You don't add a limit to infinity... it just goes on.
What are you talking about...? | I said that I thought it was argued that God is above our basic laws like time and space.
It's stuff like, perhaps our laws only allow us to think of time and space. Rather like our 4 fundamental forces: gravitational, electrostatic, strong nuclear and weak nuclear. Doesn't this list seem rather... Empty? It seems, to me, rather stupid that we can generalise down all the things happening in our Universe to these 4 forces. I expected more. Perhaps there are more things to electrons that we never thought of, such as 5-dimensional reproduction between electrons and stuff. Or perhaps God is behind it. Or perhaps our laws are too "stupid" to take God into account. Stuff like that.
I'm an atheist, so I really have no opinion. But I do think our laws at the moment are bound to expand. Rather like our number system. From positive integers to positive reals to negative reals to irrationals to complex numbers.*
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11-12-2006, 08:14 PM
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#43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by crazy-man Sorry I noticed a typo but yeah... You've stated that god isn't omniscent, but that doesn't mean he can not create something that he can not lift. You don't add a limit to infinity... it just goes on. | *Meaning that it is impossible absolute to create something so that something cannot get hotter because it would require there to be a set limit at the end of infinity and as we both agree there is not. *It is impossible absolute because God can lift anything. If he can lift anything then something cannot be created so heavy God cannot lift it.
That being said, God is still omnipotent because he can do anything that is possible absolute. That definition of omnipotence is older than Christianity.
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11-13-2006, 01:31 AM
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#44 (permalink)
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| You've stated that god isn't omnipotent and now you do. What do you agree to...
There is no set limit, so it means it can go hotter and hotter, it doesn't have to stop. The absolute impossible is something that you said because it is deemed impossible.
The fact you stated that he can lift anything, then there's a paradox. If he can create anything and he can lift anything, then that must mean he can create something that he can't lift. I might have not stated the paradox, but god has enough holes into his existence and most revolves around paradox.
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11-13-2006, 01:40 AM
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#45 (permalink)
| Aya Matsuura is awesome
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Originally Posted by crazy-man You've stated that god isn't omnipotent and now you do. What do you agree to...
There is no set limit, so it means it can go hotter and hotter, it doesn't have to stop. The absolute impossible is something that you said because it is deemed impossible.
The fact you stated that he can lift anything, then there's a paradox. If he can create anything and he can lift anything, then that must mean he can create something that he can't lift. I might have not stated the paradox, but god has enough holes into his existence and most revolves around paradox. | If a box has weight x, then perhaps God can lift a box of weight x+1. Since x<x+1 for all x>0, this must mean God can lift anything.
If God can create boxes, it doesn't mean that he cannot create boxes that are red, pretty pink, with bunnies in them, or stuff like that. He can create boxes, and he can lift all boxes. This means that all boxes God creates must be liftable by God. This means that God cannot create a box he cannot lift - that is the contradiction.*
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11-13-2006, 01:44 AM
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#46 (permalink)
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| "Interpret wrongly"
Yeah seriosuly, because this is something that was written a few thousand years ago through different languages. There are going to be some miscommunications.
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11-14-2006, 12:09 AM
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#47 (permalink)
| .: Quite Canny :.
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| Not to be rude or anything but why are
we still talking about God lifting things?
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11-14-2006, 02:27 AM
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#48 (permalink)
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| Don't know but I find it fun >.> not really... Quote: |
If God can create boxes, it doesn't mean that he cannot create boxes that are red, pretty pink, with bunnies in them, or stuff like that. He can create boxes, and he can lift all boxes. This means that all boxes God creates must be liftable by God. This means that God cannot create a box he cannot lift - that is the contradiction.*
| I'm sorry... but you're not getting my point... if god can create "anything" that means he can create something that he can not lift.
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11-14-2006, 02:56 AM
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#49 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by crazy-man I'm sorry... but you're not getting my point... if god can create "anything" that means he can create something that he can not lift. | He can create anything. A box that God cannot lift simply is not a thing - it is a contradiction in terms. As Thomas Aquinas put it, the predicate is not compatible with the subject. Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobalt Wolf
we still talking about God lifting things? | It's an example of something that is philosophically impossible absolute.
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11-16-2006, 02:31 PM
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#50 (permalink)
| .: Quite Canny :.
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Naust del dosst chaon! Age: 25 Posts: 663
| Hmm... kinda like one of those questions,
"Which came first, the chicken or the egg."
In my opinion, I don't think he can create something that he cannot lift.
It would be like writing something in permanent marker which is not
erasable like pencil but if you use the right cleaner it will come off.
Actually, that's probably not the best example... it's just the first
one that came to mind, being a mother and all now. lol
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"Usstan ortelanth dos, zhah nindel jal nindel dos ehmtu?"
"Dos z'klaen naut ritze dosst dro ves mzilt ulu luth
ol pholor l' tela d' ussta velve iz' dos xun." | |
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11-19-2006, 05:31 AM
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#51 (permalink)
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| Somehow I think we're just going back and forth on this thing.
Well... I didn't check for a while but yeah...
The thing about god is just the paradox thing I guess... it's probably the most argueable stuff about the paradox but yeah...
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11-19-2006, 03:51 PM
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#52 (permalink)
| Aya Matsuura is awesome
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Trieste, Friuli-Venezia Giulia Age: 20 Posts: 15,269
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Originally Posted by crazy-man Don't know but I find it fun >.> not really...
I'm sorry... but you're not getting my point... if god can create "anything" that means he can create something that he can not lift. | Alright, let's say that:
P: God can create anything (True, as defined)
Q: God can lift anything (True, as defined)
Therefore the statement, "God can make something He cannot lift" means P&&!Q (P and not Q) which is True && False which is False. This means that the statement "God can make something He cannot lift" is false.
The statement, "God can make boxes full of bunnies" satisfies statement P.
Basically, it states that, "God can create everything. If God can create something, he can lift it. If he cannot lift something, this is a contradiction, therefore God can create something he cannot lift, which means that God cannot create everything.*
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11-20-2006, 06:51 AM
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#53 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 211
| I don't see the bible talking about boxes, or about what God can or can't lift. I declare the thread to be off-topic, and propose a new thread, perhaps entitled: "The God and Box question".
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11-20-2006, 03:04 PM
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#54 (permalink)
| Aya Matsuura is awesome
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Trieste, Friuli-Venezia Giulia Age: 20 Posts: 15,269
| It's a sub-topic. Heh, it stemmed from God and Science.*
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11-21-2006, 09:40 AM
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#55 (permalink)
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Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: International Contracts Agency Age: 16 Posts: 1,426
| no, people (scholars) are twisting the words in the bible to try and disprove it.
the quote "god can do anything" was used to disprove god. lets see...there was a verse in the bible where it says that God isnt perfect. this is further reinforced by the fact that God repented and killed most of the human race (noahs ark) and that his creations turned evil and was not protected from satan.
so...what have we learned? scholars disregard important info. the bible isnt a literal translation. the statement is most likely an exageration or something to try and make God look more omnipotent.
on topic: bible is in some parts, a load of bullshit. | |
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11-28-2006, 07:51 AM
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#56 (permalink)
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| Quote: |
Basically, it states that, "God can create everything. If God can create something, he can lift it. If he cannot lift something, this is a contradiction, therefore God can create something he cannot lift, which means that God cannot create everything.*
| That statement was really what I was trying to convey XD
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11-28-2006, 07:31 PM
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#57 (permalink)
| Aya Matsuura is awesome
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Trieste, Friuli-Venezia Giulia Age: 20 Posts: 15,269
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Originally Posted by crazy-man That statement was really what I was trying to convey XD | I thought you were trying to convey that God could create a box He could not lift...*
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11-28-2006, 08:51 PM
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#58 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Washington D.C Posts: 1,390
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Originally Posted by crazy-man That statement was really what I was trying to convey XD | I think it's just semantic we don't agree on. Very loosely, the phrase God cannot do everything is correct. The point I'm trying to make is that the traditional definition of omnipotence from Aristotle (that I have adopted to my beliefs) holds things such as paradoxes (like the box example) as something not even omnipotent being can do. This doesn't make them not omnipotent because these actions are not actually things to be done.
Very simply, it states that God can do any thing, however paradoxes are not things because they contradict themself.
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11-29-2006, 02:25 AM
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#59 (permalink)
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizardbreath The Bible isn't BS....people just interpret it wrongly. | You would know huh?
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11-30-2006, 05:27 AM
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#60 (permalink)
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| I'm getting confused now >.>
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