Jack Straw: The niqab makes fostering community relations difficult

[x42bn6]

Or something to that quote.

Too difficult to do my usual embedding of news articles, but try this:

http://news.google.co.uk/news?oe=UTF...LIMS.xml&hl=en

My argument is this: Islam is different. Being different shouldn't make communal relations difficult if two people understand that they are different and accept those differences.

If, say, you are celibate and you carry some sort of token to signify it, it could be offensive if you were asked to take it off. It might be offensive to tell a Christian to remove his cross because you don't believe in Christianity. It could be offensive to tell a married person to remove his or her ring because your own marriage ended in four young children and HIV.

Women who choose the burqa and choose to allow it to cover their faces are accepting a way of Islam that deems it so. Nobody has the right to remove the burqa unwillingly, just as Confucius said that a promise made under a threat is something heaven would not approve of.

It is amazing that so many have agreed with Jack Straw over this, too. Don't get me wrong: why a woman would want to wear a burqa, in, say, a hot country, to me (an athelist), is bewildering, but to put in the comment that it makes things easier is absurd. Some women, if asked to do so, would balk at the fact and may end up being ashamed or, at the least, more shy. This is not the effect that helps communal relations either!

The burqa can be taken as a religious symbol; one of choice. To suggest that it makes it easier without it is a direct attack on the religion.*

[Laharl]

My point is that it's still easier to communicate when the other person's face isn't blocked, so you can pick up facial cues. That's why people with aspergers have such a hard time communicating with people - picking up cues like that.

It's not attacking a religion, people are just too sensitive to everything.

[x42bn6]

Originally Posted by Root

My point is that it's still easier to communicate when the other person's face isn't blocked, so you can pick up facial cues. That's why people with aspergers have such a hard time communicating with people - picking up cues like that.

It's not attacking a religion, people are just too sensitive to everything.

Are they? The hijab and burqa are requirements to some Muslims, and you are asking them to defy their beliefs just for that? To me, that is rather harsh.

I am inclined to say, "Tough. Live with it. Instead of making others change, perhaps you should be the one to change."*

[Laharl]

So to me, liquor is holy. Should I be allowed to claim religion as an excuse? Of course not. Why should they?

I mean as little offense as possible, but I'm tired of hearing different muslim groups whining. They aren't the first ones discriminated against, and they certainly won't be the last. But ultimately where does whining get you? No where. Either do something real (such as challenging it in court) or get over your ego and move on with your life.

This is a battle not worth fighting.

[B~E]

The religious reason for the burqa is that men cannot act decently if he can see a woman's skin. So she has to wear it to protect herself from our lustfull, primal pervert ways. As such, whenever a woman wear the burqa, it is an abject, bigoted sexist commentary against males in general, that his right up there with "women can't work outside the house" and "blacks can't vote".

As such, not only is the burqa humiliating for women, but it is extremly insulting for men. And the kind of thinking that justify the burqa goes against all the progress we have made concerning sexual equalities in the past hundred years.

So, I say, to hell with the burqa, and with your cultural relativisme!

[Laharl]

B~E has a point with that. Then again they are both nonchristian and female, so any comment they make about men and/or christians is seen as acceptable by society.

And to refine my statement: People from my religion have been abused by the same people there's has been before they came along. Waah, waah. Get over it. I don't care, and I'm tired of hearing it.

[x42bn6]

Originally Posted by Root

So to me, liquor is holy. Should I be allowed to claim religion as an excuse? Of course not. Why should they?

I mean as little offense as possible, but I'm tired of hearing different muslim groups whining. They aren't the first ones discriminated against, and they certainly won't be the last. But ultimately where does whining get you? No where. Either do something real (such as challenging it in court) or get over your ego and move on with your life.

This is a battle not worth fighting.

You mistake me. Liquor is forbidden in Islam. But to claim religion depends.

If you walk into a Muslim household with liquor, they may politely ask you to dispose of it before entering. A hidden sentence beneath this is that if you refuse, you are not invited.

If a Muslim walks into your household and you are drinking liquor, they may ask you to stop because it offends them but the decision lies with you. However, as a host, it is your job not to offend your guests!

If a Muslim and a non-Muslim meet in a public place and the non-Muslim is drinking liquor, the Muslim may make a request for you to stop. But it's your decision.

But I do think Muslims are being sidelined in this world. I might find it awkward that Christians go to Church on Sunday. But I don't say that I hate it because I close business deals on Sundays, and those Christians are at Church!

Look at it. France has banned hijabs. Jack Straw, a prominant person in England, says burqas make things hard and people agree. Islamophobia is abound. 95% of Muslims in England say that if they knew that a Muslim was planning a terrorist attack, they would not report it. Isn't it obvious that Islam is being slighted in all directions?

[edit]

Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm

The religious reason for the burqa is that men cannot act decently if he can see a woman's skin. So she has to wear it to protect herself from our lustfull, primal pervert ways. As such, whenever a woman wear the burqa, it is an abject, bigoted sexist commentary against males in general, that his right up there with "women can't work outside the house" and "blacks can't vote".

Islam may appear to be sexist to some (and I am one of them) but Islam is not supposed to be. Muhammad himself was said to have helped his wife with the household chores. I could argue the burqa protects men from sexual advances and therefore protects women from sexual advances too.*

[Tipsy]

It's not the popular ways of expressing yourself that you need to make an effort to protect, but the ones such as this that are unpopular. Stifling the freedom of expression slowly degrades a country away from being a free and open society.

The generalization of my view towards religious practice is that you may pursue any religious activity you wish as long as it does not break a law. I put an emphasis on the word generalization in that last sentence. Some laws are simply wrong and shouldn't be followed. This takes it to court, as BFH suggested. If that fails, a fundamental freedom to any free society has been usurped and further measures may need to be taken.

As for what this guy has said, that should be protected as well. If he wants to walk around with an icon of Muhammad on his shirt, he should have every right to do that. If he wants to walk around with a nazi swastika on his shirt that says kill all the Jews, that should be protected. He has not actually done anything except express himself.

As for the outcry, the article makes it seem that people are condemning him for his exercise of free expression, the very thing those people are seeking to protect (their freedom of expression). If you dislike the idea, condemn the idea, but don't attack the person that brings it up.

[B~E]

Originally Posted by x42bn6

Islam may appear to be sexist to some (and I am one of them) but Islam is not supposed to be. Muhammad himself was said to have helped his wife with the household chores. I could argue the burqa protects men from sexual advances and therefore protects women from sexual advances too.*

But the kind of thinking that justify the burqa, and a load of other muslim pratices, goes against all the progress we have made concerning sexual equality since the 17th century. Men and women dont need to be protected from each other, its that simple. And to wear the burqa is to say otherwise, it is to say that men are potential rapist, and that women must reduce themselves to be protected from our supposed pulsions.

This whole line of thinking is humiliating for women, and insulting for men. They can do it in their countries, but not in the West! We have a certain cultural heritage that need to be defended, that is worth defending, and that needs to be understood and accepted by our immigrants.

[x42bn6]

Originally Posted by Tipsy

It's not the popular ways of expressing yourself that you need to make an effort to protect, but the ones such as this that are unpopular. Stifling the freedom of expression slowly degrades a country away from being a free and open society.

The generalization of my view towards religious practice is that you may pursue any religious activity you wish as long as it does not break a law. I put an emphasis on the word generalization in that last sentence. Some laws are simply wrong and shouldn't be followed. This takes it to court, as BFH suggested. If that fails, a fundamental freedom to any free society has been usurped and further measures may need to be taken.

As for what this guy has said, that should be protected as well. If he wants to walk around with an icon of Muhammad on his shirt, he should have every right to do that. If he wants to walk around with a nazi swastika on his shirt that says kill all the Jews, that should be protected. He has not actually done anything except express himself.

As for the outcry, the article makes it seem that people are condemning him for his exercise of free expression, the very thing those people are seeking to protect (their freedom of expression). If you dislike the idea, condemn the idea, but don't attack the person that brings it up.

I think the reason is that he holds several high-ranking positions in the United Kingdom, and one of his jobs is not to slight a large minority of the country.

The issue of Jyllands-Posten and the cartoons pops up again, about freedom of expression: my view has been that freedom of expression is a beautiful thing unless you screw it up by insulting people. If you accidentally insult someone, one apologises. If you deliberately insult someone, one is in the wrong.

But I am not condemning him as much as I condemn the idea. The British Government has a right to protect and aid its citizens, not attack them.

[edit] Man I hate posting big posts at the same time as others...

Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm

But the kind of thinking that justify the burqa, and a load of other muslim pratices, goes against all the progress we have made concerning sexual equality since the 17th century. Men and women dont need to be protected from each other, its that simple. And to wear the burqa is to say otherwise, it is to say that men are potential rapist, and that women must reduce themselves to be protected from our supposed pulsions.

This whole kind of thinking is humiliating for women, and insulting for men. They can do it in their countries, but not in the West! We have a certain cultural heritage that need to be defended, that is worth defending, and that needs to be understood and accepted by our immigrants.

I'm not saying the burqa's potential protection is right nor wrong - the number of women choosing to do without it is proof of that - but to radically change the view that the burqa is not needed is not going to be easy, rather like, "What if Jesus was married and had a child?" I agree, rape and sexual abuse transcends religion, dress, race, colour and gender.

Is it humiliating for women and insulting to men? That is subjective. If a husband and wife think it best for her to wear a burqa, who are we to say that it is insulting and humiliating? Please do not assume that the women are suffering in silence and that the men dominate the women rather like how Arabian emperors had hundreds of wives whom he kept secret, even from his servants.

Even though about.com sucks, this is quite a good article: http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa020900a.htm. It boils down to one unfortunate fact: Islamic and Western culture differ, but it is no excuse to ask the other to adapt.*

[B~E]

He raised a public debate on the burqa, he didnt attacked anybody!

[x42bn6]

Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm

He raised a public debate on the burqa, he didnt attacked anybody!

If I say, "Christian crosses are distracting, people should take them off when talking to others," is that not an attack on Christians?*

[B~E]

If what he said is reasonable and understanable, lets call it a request and lets discuss it. If its discriminatory, defiling and offensive, lets call it an attack and lets denounce it.

I believe that the debate on the burqua is the former, and not the later. Because, as I said above, a very good point can be made against it. You could argue that it is an "attack" in the sense that the request is proactive, but that would just be playing on words from your part.

[x42bn6]

Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm

If what he said is reasonable and understanable, lets call it a request and lets discuss it. If its discriminatory, defiling and offensive, lets call it an attack and lets denounce it.

I believe that the debate on the burqua is the former, and not the later. Because, as I said above, a very good point can be made against it. You could argue that it is an "attack" in the sense that the request is proactive, but that would just be playing on words from your part.

Perhaps it is a bit of both. By the way, this is why I hate lawyers.

To me, it shows misunderstanding and because of that, it sounds like an insult to Muslims. Jack Straw seems to only understand that it is inconvenient, but he doesn't know the reason the burqa is worn in the first place.*

[B~E]

As I said above, the arguments that justify the burqa is an insult to western culture. Women and men dont need to be protected from each others. And knowing this, there is a legitimate ground for banning the thing.

[x42bn6]

Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm

As I said above, the arguments that justify the burqa is an insult to western culture. Women and men dont need to be protected from each others. And knowing this, there is a legitimate ground for banning the thing.

Is that why pepper spray, personal alarms, martial arts classes and the police exist?*

[Laharl]

I hold many of the beliefs of Satan, and as a guest to my lair it's not their job to tell me what I do or not.

Anyways, it's still true that a person who's face you can see is easier to emphasize or read facial cues from. That's all I really see in it.

[B~E]

Originally Posted by x42bn6

Is that why pepper spray, personal alarms, martial arts classes and the police exist?*

Oooh, and explicitly, what is your point? Can't you tell the difference between a woman who attend martial arts classes because she wants to be able to effectively overpower an agressor, and another one who wear a garnment who totaly cover and conceal her body, because men aren't supposed to be able to control themselves when they see naked skin?

The former is understabanble and practical, and is not insulting to all males. The later is based on insane fallacies that are prejidicials to both men and women alike.

[x42bn6]

Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm

Oooh, and explicitly, what is your point? Can't you tell the difference between a woman who attend martial arts classes because she wants to be able to effectively overpower an agressor, and another one who wear a garnment who totaly cover and conceal her body, because men aren't supposed to be able to control themselves when they see naked skin?

Women don't need protection from men?*

[B~E]

People need protection from a potential agressor. Now, where does the burqa fit into this?

To practice martial arts is understabanble and practical. To wear the burqa is to give credit to insane fallacies that are prejudiicials to both men and women alike.