Do Liberals hate America?

[The_Raven7]

Seriously, this BS needs to stop. It makes no sense and all it does is irritate the living crap out of anyone with a brain. Form cohesive and factually-based arguments or don't get involved with politics at all.

[Tipsy]

Sure let’s look out America's politics. We have the Republicans on one side and the Democrats on the other. There's blue and then there's red. Whatever happened to America? You want to show me one of our parties has our country’s best interest at heart, go ahead and try.

How about Iraq? We’ve got the Republicans without a plan other then let's sit here and hope to God that it doesn’t all go to hell. Why can't they do anything else? They've screwed themselves over with their campaigns and it comes down to pride. Day after day in 2004 they used the flip flop angle over and over again. They used the Democrats want to cut and run. They used Democrats are blame America first. Now guess what? They can't do anything because they become the flip flops they denounced. They become the cut and runners. They become hypocrites within their own rhetoric and they can't bear the thought of hurting their party. Who comes first? Their party or America?

And we've got the party that has no ideas. All they know is that they don’t like Bush and they are mad at him. Their platform can be generalized into we're not Republicans. Let's get out of Iraq because we don't like Bush. We went their and got thousands of Iraqis killed and destroyed their infrastructure. Or let's set a timetable so that we might even have a scapegoat. Oh, we told them we were leaving now, it's their fault their government and infrastructure is screwed. I guess the best thing to do is leave their country a mess because of the slightest chance a stable country might come out of the smoke. Let's throw an entire country into our partisan politics.

Our politicians are working to destroy America whether they realize it or not. They see red and blue when they should be seeing America. They spout these grandiose ideas in their campaigns and then step in line with their party. I've seen Lamont’s rants on lobbyists and how special interest groups are a business more than a means of free speech these days. Companies, unions, and others basically buy their legislature through giving campaign financing to their candidate of choice. Neither party is going beyond ideas. There is no follow through because a push for it by either party would tear it apart.

It makes everyone feel good inside when you get to think that you're right and then everyone who is against you is wrong. Republicans want to think that Democrats are protecting terrorists and want America to lose abroad while Democrats want to think that Bush is a fascist bent on curving our civil liberties, wants to make the world his vision and go back to imperialism, or even push it to saying Bush caused 9/11. Maybe I'm generalizing a bit, but the point is we don't live in a magical world where one side is right and pure while the other is evil and wrong.

I can summarize my post in two words - we're f*cked. That's all there is to it. Our nation everyday is becoming more and more polarized and there's no end to it in sight. Want to prove to me one party is not a self-centered group that is only concerned about its' self-interest? A party that would gladly destroy what they are if it would help America? There is no atmosphere where there is intellectual debate that ends in a touché. People complain about Bush's tax cuts and other about raising taxes. Know which one is better? I sure don't because there really is no definitive empirical evidence showing one is better than the other. Everyone claims they know the answer though, somehow partisanship has become proof.

Go read Free Republic or Democratic Underground forums and tell me if you still hold either party's base in high esteem. Is it really bull****? If you really think it is, I genuinely hope you can show me that it is because I would really like to hope that America has a bright future ahead. I really hope there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I hope its' just me who can't see it...

[micro.micro]

how do we solve the problem? get rid of the winner take all system and bring back the third party!

[Lights]

Tipsy, go Libertarian!

People call it a wasted vote, but I disagree. A wasted vote is voting for the parties you don't even agree with, just because you "have" to. That's bull**** and thinking that way will only keep things as they are: ****ed. I don't agree with everything in the Libertarian policy (and I definantly wouldn't consider myself a hardliner), but as far as I can see, they're the only hope.

It's sad because I really do think many, many people would actually agree with Libertarianism, but they just simply cannot make an impression because of the chokehold Democrats and Republicans have on American politics. Libertarianism is basically what our government was *supposed* to be, anyway, but we've gotten so inflated in the last 75 years, you wouldn't ever know it.


Limited government and individual liberty? Bingo, baby.


Our government is supposed to be by and for the people, but it seems like we really have no input. "Okay, either vote for this Republican drone or this Democrat drone! We'll "represent" you!" Bull****.

[Tipsy]

I've considered Libertarianism before, but there are too many irreconciable difference I have with the Libertarian Party to consider myself one. I am very much for the individual government and limited government, but the limited government I see from the Libertarian Party is a bit too limited for my likings.

There are just too many social programs that I believe cannot be put into the private sector because I simply cannot see it working out well. A lot can be said for the flexibility of capitalism to provide for the demands of its' consumers, but we have to keep in mind that it is run by self-interest. Education, [some] labor laws, environmental restrictions, and many other things need to be run by the government to ensure they are carried out - these types of programs cannot be entrusted to be run by self-interest.

Don't get me wrong, I seriously considered voting for Badnarik, but it was not because I want the Libertarians to go into power. I want to see the Libertarian Party go the way of the other big third parties of the past. I want to see their less radical parts of their platform be implemented and then have them slowly fade out of the political scene.

To be completely honest, I am a man without a political party and there is no one broad group I fit into. I could not call myself a Libertarian, a Republican, or a Democrat at this point, but who I vote for does not go straight to one party, but mostly goes with a platform. If the Republican and Democrat in 2008 have even worse platforms then the Libertarians, maybe if it turns out to be Hillary and Giuliani, then I could vote Libertarian.

I don't have utter contempt for the Libertarians like I do for the Democrats and Republicans, but that's probably only because they haven't had the slightest bit of power. It would be easiest to say contemporary American politics isn't worth of America in my opinion.

Originally Posted by micro.micro

how do we solve the problem? get rid of the winner take all system and bring back the third party!

What do you suggest replacing it with?

[Lights]

Originally Posted by Tipsy

I've considered Libertarianism before, but there are too many irreconciable difference I have with the Libertarian Party to consider myself one. I am very much for the individual government and limited government, but the limited government I see from the Libertarian Party is a bit too limited for my likings.

There are just too many social programs that I believe cannot be put into the private sector because I simply cannot see it working out well. A lot can be said for the flexibility of capitalism to provide for the demands of its' consumers, but we have to keep in mind that it is run by self-interest. Education, [some] labor laws, environmental restrictions, and many other things need to be run by the government to ensure they are carried out - these types of programs cannot be entrusted to be run by self-interest.

Don't get me wrong, I seriously considered voting for Badnarik, but it was not because I want the Libertarians to go into power. I want to see the Libertarian Party go the way of the other big third parties of the past. I want to see their less radical parts of their platform be implemented and then have them slowly fade out of the political scene.

To be completely honest, I am a man without a political party and there is no one broad group I fit into. I could not call myself a Libertarian, a Republican, or a Democrat at this point, but who I vote for does not go straight to one party, but mostly goes with a platform. If the Republican and Democrat in 2008 have even worse platforms then the Libertarians, maybe if it turns out to be Hillary and Giuliani, then I could vote Libertarian.

I don't have utter contempt for the Libertarians like I do for the Democrats and Republicans, but that's probably only because they haven't had the slightest bit of power. It would be easiest to say contemporary American politics isn't worth of America in my opinion.

Aye, and I won't say I approve of everything, either. I do not have a real problem with limited welfare or social security, for example; and I realize there are things that should only be done by a central government. But I do think that if a Libertarian would somehow be able to get into power, and have a Senate that would work with him, we could at least start moving in the right direction. Cutting back on the ridiculous spending and bloated social programs, for starters. Government should be here to protect from force and fraud, and to provide basic civil services; it shouldn't be the central icon of all business and social practices, which it seems to be today with the thousands of departments and divisions.

I'm very liberal (as in, liberty) on social issues, but more republican - in theory, at least - on economic ones. Obviously I'm not affiliated with any party, as I'm only a minor, but I wouldn't want to be anyway. Political parties are like organized religion at its worst.


But anyway, I agree with the thread creator's opinion. :P I also agree with everything you said in your first post, Tipsy. It's like politicians aren't even concerned with running the country anymore, all they care about is sounding like the better party and being in control. When they get in control, they don't do anything.

I am reserving opinion on the Democrats somewhat, though, since they aren't in power right now. It looks like they'll be getting control of the House/Senate this November.. so maybe they'll get something done. But it is doubtful.

[micro.micro]

be a green then tip lol bwhahha

[Lizardbreath]

Originally Posted by Tipsy

Sure let’s look out America's politics. We have the Republicans on one side and the Democrats on the other. There's blue and then there's red. Whatever happened to America? You want to show me one of our parties has our country’s best interest at heart, go ahead and try.

How about Iraq? We’ve got the Republicans without a plan other then let's sit here and hope to God that it doesn’t all go to hell. Why can't they do anything else? They've screwed themselves over with their campaigns and it comes down to pride. Day after day in 2004 they used the flip flop angle over and over again. They used the Democrats want to cut and run. They used Democrats are blame America first. Now guess what? They can't do anything because they become the flip flops they denounced. They become the cut and runners. They become hypocrites within their own rhetoric and they can't bear the thought of hurting their party. Who comes first? Their party or America?

And we've got the party that has no ideas. All they know is that they don’t like Bush and they are mad at him. Their platform can be generalized into we're not Republicans. Let's get out of Iraq because we don't like Bush. We went their and got thousands of Iraqis killed and destroyed their infrastructure. Or let's set a timetable so that we might even have a scapegoat. Oh, we told them we were leaving now, it's their fault their government and infrastructure is screwed. I guess the best thing to do is leave their country a mess because of the slightest chance a stable country might come out of the smoke. Let's throw an entire country into our partisan politics.

Our politicians are working to destroy America whether they realize it or not. They see red and blue when they should be seeing America. They spout these grandiose ideas in their campaigns and then step in line with their party. I've seen Lamont’s rants on lobbyists and how special interest groups are a business more than a means of free speech these days. Companies, unions, and others basically buy their legislature through giving campaign financing to their candidate of choice. Neither party is going beyond ideas. There is no follow through because a push for it by either party would tear it apart.

It makes everyone feel good inside when you get to think that you're right and then everyone who is against you is wrong. Republicans want to think that Democrats are protecting terrorists and want America to lose abroad while Democrats want to think that Bush is a fascist bent on curving our civil liberties, wants to make the world his vision and go back to imperialism, or even push it to saying Bush caused 9/11. Maybe I'm generalizing a bit, but the point is we don't live in a magical world where one side is right and pure while the other is evil and wrong.

I can summarize my post in two words - we're f*cked. That's all there is to it. Our nation everyday is becoming more and more polarized and there's no end to it in sight. Want to prove to me one party is not a self-centered group that is only concerned about its' self-interest? A party that would gladly destroy what they are if it would help America? There is no atmosphere where there is intellectual debate that ends in a touché. People complain about Bush's tax cuts and other about raising taxes. Know which one is better? I sure don't because there really is no definitive empirical evidence showing one is better than the other. Everyone claims they know the answer though, somehow partisanship has become proof.

Go read Free Republic or Democratic Underground forums and tell me if you still hold either party's base in high esteem. Is it really bull****? If you really think it is, I genuinely hope you can show me that it is because I would really like to hope that America has a bright future ahead. I really hope there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I hope its' just me who can't see it...

Democrats wouldn't need ideas to fix things if there weren't the problems caused by republicans. :grunt

[Laharl]

I'm sorry to have to say this, but on the grande scheme of things the democrates aren't even really left wing. They're centrused. The Canadian NDP ARE left wing (www.ndp.ca). That, by the way, is the party I am "affiliated" with.

Ultimately I'm an NDP supporter in a conservative riding. Sucks to be me

[Tipsy]

Originally Posted by lizardbreath

Democrats wouldn't need ideas to fix things if there weren't the problems caused by republicans. :grunt

Only if you forget things such as our blatantly failing social progems such as Social Security and even more fundamental things like taking apart federalism piece by piece (something of which I am very dear of).

Your post embodies the very partisanship I was denouncing.

Originally Posted by Lights

I'm very liberal (as in, liberty) on social issues, but more republican - in theory, at least - on economic ones. Obviously I'm not affiliated with any party, as I'm only a minor, but I wouldn't want to be anyway. Political parties are like organized religion at its worst.

My problem with considering myself liberal or conservative on issues of liberty is because going to far to either eventually goes against liberty. For example, conservative try to preserve tradition and liberals tend to push for extreme (atleast I consider it) ideas, like the hate speech laws and gun control I was talking about in other threads.

Originally Posted by micro.micro

be a green then tip lol bwhahha

Are you saying vote for the Green Party?