Updated Abortion Thread

[thebastardsword]

would you say that feeling pain is concidered thought?

[Snagg]

Originally Posted by Big-Fat-Homo

Sign language counts as verbal, Snagg. And he is, and was, capable of coherent thought. Big difference.

Please prove to me that fetus are capable of thought.

The link posted above is highly inaccurate. A less than eight week old fetus looks like like this.this.

People who think otherwise really must study biology better.

Click here.

Siting sources.

The person's physically handicapped, means he can't move in anyway. Same with a person in a coma. How can you prove he is currently capable of coherent thought? And because he wass capable of coherent thought doesn't mean anything... a dead person wasss capable of coherent thought too.

I may not be able to prove that fetus are capable of coherent thought, but I also cannot prove that people in a coma is capable of coherent thought. Yet it is illegal to kill a person in a coma.

Also, I have said before, babies who have not learned to speak are incapable of coherent thought. Y

[bloodshed]

Who cares if they aren't capable of coherent thought, they will be soon. They will be as capable as me one day. A physically or mentally disabled person will never be as capable as me. If we killed everyone uncapable of coherent thought you would be dead Big-Fat-Homo. Next argument, instead of getting a baby aborted (That picture almost made me cry) why not put it up for adoption? It is alot better in the hands of caring parents who either want alot of children or can't have babies. Just because you don't have time for it doesn't mean it's life should end. There are other ways of still being busy whatever your doing (Drugs, sex, college, whatever, blah, more sex, blah)and have a baby. Your argument is hopelessly weak. By the way, the picture clearly points 22 WEEK OLD ABORTED BABY NOT 8. Why should I prove to you fetus' are capable of coherent thought, it doesn't really matter anyway. Considering a baby an STD, that is wrong. Let's just say there was an abortion clinic where an ape worked because the first two people on Earth (Lets call them Adam and Eve) wanted to get an abortion. Baby zapped and boom, no more life. Which clearly points to my reason for this, without babies the Earth wouldn't have a population you single minded embicile. As I said before, the baby provides many benefits to the mother, unless she is a bitch. Like love, love the worst and best emotio, we would be nowhere without it, yet we would be nowhere with it. But I guess its bad sides outweigh the good. Babies are needed! Without them the human population would be dead in at most 130 years. Life doesn't start at coherent thought, life is started when your fathers reproduction system supplies enough semen for sperm to live in. Then when you, your sperm comes along, life has started. It doesn't matter about your views, because that is exactly what it is, a view. But we aren't discussing Homos views on abortion, we are discussing if abortion is morally right. And hell if you don't give a **** about a fetus maybe you should be in a bio - chem trash can at the local clinic, where you will soon have your stem cells taken out and the rest turned into dog food. Wouldn't that be good? I'm sure it is what you want. Of course you could just be some crazy freak who would not even care if the entire human population just crashed like a 20 mile wide meteor onto the moon. Who knows?

[Snagg]

Good point about the leech. A person in hospital for their entire life will definitely be more of a leech than a baby would.

[Lights]

Originally Posted by Big-Fat-Homo

Sign language counts as verbal, Snagg. And he is, and was, capable of coherent thought. Big difference.

Please prove to me that fetus are capable of thought.

What I fail to understand is how that is important. How can brain power or developed consciousness be the deciding factor of a human's rights to life? That is so subjective, so inconsistent. Examples of why have been brought up countless times; it just isn't a good way to base such an important decision on. As you said yourself, "most" kids will know they are about to be hurt and "most" mentally handicapped will, too. But.. what about the "rest"? It's just inconsistent. :/

The link posted above is highly inaccurate. A less than eight week old fetus looks like like this.this.

People who think otherwise really must study biology better.

Click here.

Siting sources.

Eh, I must have missed where we were talking about an eight week fetus. I fully understand the image I gave was for a 22 week fetus. I only posted it in response to the "Until someone can prove that fetuses can think and feel" comment - which seemed to me to cast doubt on the humanity of a fetus.

[Lizardbreath]

Let me put it this way. It's really easy. The government cannot force a women to have a baby. It's that simple. All you will do by passing an anti-abortion laws will make abortion doctors that much richer because they will get paid thousands to do the abortions illegally. Not to mention, If a women wants an abortion; she will get an abortion. All she has to do is take lots of pain killers and poison the baby until it dies.
Not to mention that it is even more folly to force a women to have a baby when she has no real intention of taking care of the child. What's to stop her abusing it? You can't force her to put the baby up for adoption.

The argument against abortion is so pathetic it is like trying to break a rock with a feather. Saying that a baby has a soul before it is even brought into this world is silly. Plus, the people who are against abortion are christian. I, for one, am christian also; but I would personally wage a lawsuit against the state if they banned abortion. I would state that it is wrong for people to dictate what women should and shouldn't do to their own bodies.

Also, as we all know, a fetus is a parasite. It is living off of the mother and what she eats/drinks. So unless you care to prove to me that somehow the moment a baby is concieved that it somehow is guaranteed rights to be in a mother for 9 months. Fine. Then I will again raise the question? Why do we stop their? Why not stop birth control? Because a sperm is something that leads up to the creation of the fetus and therefore subject to protection under the constitution.

Now for some fun interesting facts for you.

Abortion fights poverty, crime, and controls the population.

Edit: And why would you remake a topic like this lights? You are unwilling to accept facts that were stated in the last topic. So what makes this one any different? You aren't going to change anybody's mind with your extreme right-wing babble. You don't think of it from a women's perspective. So your argument is flawed from the start. Stop acting like your 10 and copycatting what your mommy/daddy taught you and join the real word.

[thebastardsword]

the government cannot force a woman to have sex either.

[Laharl]

To understand by world view better please refer to my signiture.

Originally Posted by My signiture

Your heart blackens...

No love for people who matter not at all to me. None for people I've never met, or that have never mattered. Namely a fetus.

Your soul empties...

No pity for death, for harm, for destruction. Nothing.

Your passions turn evil and dark...

Explains itself.

Wicked thoughts race through your mind, no longer disgusting you...

The will to act without remorse, to shut your emotional side down for personal gain.

If I were a straight male (Yeah, right) and my "girlfriend" was pregnant and I had no will to have said child? I would pressure her to have an abortion. Naturally I'd pay for the abortion. But, if she refused, I'd tell her to take care of the damned kid herself because there's no way she'd get any help from me. Nor would I bother with either of them.

If you ban abortions there will start becoming "Black market" abortion clinics, sponsered by crime. And said abortion clinics will pump big bucks into crime rings. Which will use said funds to fund crimes, to kill more living people who matter. People that will be missed, that is. Refer to my first post. I have little regard for life until said "living being" is able to at least be somewhat self reliant and not leeching directly off a parent.

I also feel the same way about people being kept alive in hospitals. Let them go gracefully.

[Lights]

Let me say, after this post, I am going to ask Tipsy to close the thread. It didn't quite turn out as I had hoped. :/ Oh well.

Originally Posted by lizardbreath

Let me put it this way. It's really easy. The government cannot force a women to have a baby. It's that simple. All you will do by passing an anti-abortion laws will make abortion doctors that much richer because they will get paid thousands to do the abortions illegally. Not to mention, If a women wants an abortion; she will get an abortion. All she has to do is take lots of pain killers and poison the baby until it dies.

All of which are extremely bad reasons to allow abortions. That's like saying murder should be legal because people are going to kill each other.

Oh, and the government can force a woman to have the baby. The government cannot force a woman to have sex. Understand the difference?

Not to mention that it is even more folly to force a women to have a baby when she has no real intention of taking care of the child. What's to stop her abusing it? You can't force her to put the baby up for adoption.

If she abuses it, she will be punised under law. It's simple.

The argument against abortion is so pathetic it is like trying to break a rock with a feather. Saying that a baby has a soul before it is even brought into this world is silly. Plus, the people who are against abortion are christian. I, for one, am christian also; but I would personally wage a lawsuit against the state if they banned abortion. I would state that it is wrong for people to dictate what women should and shouldn't do to their own bodies.

Funny, but I'm not Christian. Woops!

Also, as we all know, a fetus is a parasite. It is living off of the mother and what she eats/drinks.

Actually, that is just a twisted view of things. I would consider a fetus a unique being, possibly with some parasitic qualities. I would consider a fetus a living human being that is no more a 'parasite' than any. After all, can it not be argued those on welfare are parasites to society? Should we kill them?

So unless you care to prove to me that somehow the moment a baby is concieved that it somehow is guaranteed rights to be in a mother for 9 months. Fine. Then I will again raise the question? Why do we stop their? Why not stop birth control? Because a sperm is something that leads up to the creation of the fetus and therefore subject to protection under the constitution.

These issues have all been raised and covered a hundred times. If you legitimately have these questions, possibly you should take the time to read the old thread.

Edit: And why would you remake a topic like this lights? You are unwilling to accept facts that were stated in the last topic. So what makes this one any different? You aren't going to change anybody's mind with your extreme right-wing babble. You don't think of it from a women's perspective. So your argument is flawed from the start. Stop acting like your 10 and copycatting what your mommy/daddy taught you and join the real word.

That's really cute. Why did I remake this topic? Well, I dunno, try reading my first post for that answer. But I am glad you are so closed-minded that your mind will never be changed. I do not need to look at it from a woman's perspective, I need to look at it from a human rights perspective. Nice last insult there, you're the man! And I still stand by comment that lizardbreath shouldn't be allowed in this thread.


@Homo - I just feel that's a bad argument, that banning abortions will lead to black market abortions. Will that happen? Most probably, but that is just how the world is. However, if lives are saved, I'de say it's worth it.


Ahh well. Close the thread. Unless lizard wants to come back and add some more wisdom.

[Snagg]

Just because black markets would be created doesn't mean we should legalize that thing. Weapons like RPGs and big assault rifles aren't allowed, but there's a black market for them anyway, why don't we legalize it?

I think this thread is done, all arguments have been countered effectively.

[cxoli]

I don't know if I'll actually be adding anything by posting this, but I'm bored and haven't been in AS for a long time, so I think I will :P

People that support abortion should die. Literally because they support abortion and killing unborn fetuses. Maybe their mom should have aborted them, that is just my opinion.

This illustrates one of the biggest misconceptions people have about those who are "pro-choice." They make "pro-choice" synonymous with "pro-abortion." I've met very few people who actually think abortion is right. Personally, I think abortion is wrong. I can't find any means of justification for killing a baby, or what's going to end up as a baby, or whatever.

However, I support legalizing abortion as a matter of practicality. As people have stated before, women are going to get abortions whether or not it's legal. Legalizing it would allow for education about other possibilities. (I may be wrong about this, but it seems that many women view abortion as their only option...a "last resort" sort of thing. Education could help to change this view.) It would also allow for safe abortions for women who are going to get one no matter what. It's true that legalizing abortion may increase the number of infant deaths, but it also may reduce the number of deaths of women resulting in unsafe abortions. Just speculating.

As for making laws regarding abortion, I don't think it's the government's job to decide whether it's right or wrong. Right and wrong are abstract, subjective concepts that vary from person to person. I think that instead of asking "Is it right?" or "Is it wrong?", the government should ask questions such as "Is it understandable?" or "Is it justifiable?" For example, I can make the statement "Killing is wrong," but the government doesn't make laws based on such black and white ideas. We have laws to distinguish between killings in which a number of different variables are factors: Circumstances, intent, timing, etc. You do not receive the same punishment for randomly shooting someone on the street as you do for, say, accidentally hitting someone with your car or killing someone in self defense. We even acknowledge a difference between spending time meticulously planning out a murder and murdering someone in a moment of rage. I think similar distinctions should be made with abortions -- I do think there's a difference between a mother wanting to get an abortion just because she doesn't feel like having kids and one who wants an abortion because she was raped.

Well, whatever :P

[Lizardbreath]

Originally Posted by Snagg

Just because black markets would be created doesn't mean we should legalize that thing. Weapons like RPGs and big assault rifles aren't allowed, but there's a black market for them anyway, why don't we legalize it?

I think this thread is done, all arguments have been countered effectively.

- Your not looking at the whole picture. A women is going to do it no matter what. Are you going to charge every women who has a miscarriage also because she didn't keep this thing alive for 9 months because that is her civic duty? Please.

Lights: There are thousands and thousands of case of verbal/physical abuse that go undocumented in the U.S. I personally, would rather not be born then be considered an unwanted child.

"I do not need to look at it from a woman's perspective"
- This entire topic is based on what a women will be forced to do. If you can't look at it from her perspective. Then you lost the debate for yourself. It's like looking at the 9/11 attacks as a terrorist and not even looking at it from the other sides views.

[Laharl]

Yes, that is true. I'm not for going around killing everyone, it's not good for the country. I'm talking about aborting UNWANTED pregnancies.

Also, by the way, if I were a straight female (Again, yeah right) and became pregant I would do almost anything to be rid of this parasite. Even to the extent of risking poisoning myself to kill it. That's if I couldn't get an abortion

Popping pain killers would work, especially early stage...

If a woman wants one bad enough they WILL get one! You can't stop a desperate person.

[thebastardsword]

disabled persons or someone unable to support or take care of themselves gives their rights such as power of attorney to next of kin because they cannot make proper choices for themselves

a baby(not fetus) cannot take care of itself, it cannot go to the fridge and take out some baby food or take off its own diaper and clean itself

special ed students for the most part, cannot take care of themselves properly and require for another to make descisions for them because their descisions can lead to dangerous concequences for others.

now all these people cant take care of themselves and thus would be concidered parasites. but who's about to go and kill grandma because she cant take care of herself anymore?

so why is a fetus any different?

[Lizardbreath]

Originally Posted by thebastardsword

disabled persons or someone unable to support or take care of themselves gives their rights such as power of attorney to next of kin because they cannot make proper choices for themselves

a baby(not fetus) cannot take care of itself, it cannot go to the fridge and take out some baby food or take off its own diaper and clean itself

special ed students for the most part, cannot take care of themselves properly and require for another to make descisions for them because their descisions can lead to dangerous concequences for others.

now all these people cant take care of themselves and thus would be concidered parasites. but who's about to go and kill grandma because she cant take care of herself anymore?

so why is a fetus any different?

A grandparent has lived a life that is full and has had experiences and memories. A Fetus has had none. GG. Personally, though I think it is a controversial issue myself. I see no reason to keep old people who live off of machines for the final years of their lives alive.

[thebastardsword]

Originally Posted by lizardbreath

A grandparent has lived a life that is full and has had experiences and memories. A Fetus has had none. GG. Personally, though I think it is a controversial issue myself. I see no reason to keep old people who live off of machines for the final years of their lives alive.

and what of those born with special needs? the ones that are projected to require help for the rest of their life?GG :-p

[Lizardbreath]

Originally Posted by thebastardsword

and what of those born with special needs? the ones that are projected to require help for the rest of their life?GG :-p

I honestly don't see why we should keep somebody on a machine for the rest of their life if they are going to do nothing at all for society but be a drain.

[thebastardsword]

Originally Posted by lizardbreath

I honestly don't see why we should keep somebody on a machine for the rest of their life if they are going to do nothing at all for society but be a drain.

special needs people arnt going to be on machines the rest of their life...think of an adult trapped with the mind of a 10 y/o

[Tipsy]

Originally Posted by Lights

Let me say, after this post, I am going to ask Tipsy to close the thread. It didn't quite turn out as I had hoped. :/ Oh well.

Closed as requested.

This thread has strayed from the topic intended by Lights.