I Pledge Allegiance...

[Tipsy]

Incase you haven't heard, due to the phrase "under God" being in the Pledge of Allegiance it has once again come under attack due to a federal judge deeming it unconstitutional in public schools recently.

Originally Posted by CNN.com

SAN FRANCISCO, California (AP) -- A federal judge declared Wednesday that the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools is unconstitutional, a decision that could potentially put the divisive issue back before the U.S. Supreme Court.

The case was brought by the same atheist whose previous battle against the words "under God" was rejected last year by the Supreme Court on procedural grounds.

U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton ruled that the pledge's reference to one nation "under God" violates school children's right to be "free from a coercive requirement to affirm God."

...

The Supreme Court dismissed the case last year, saying Newdow lacked standing because he did not have custody of his elementary school daughter he sued on behalf of.

...

The Becket Fund, a religious rights group that is a party to the case, said it would immediately appeal the case to the San Francisco-based 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. If the court does not change its precedent, the group would go to the Supreme Court.

"It's a way to get this issue to the Supreme Court for a final decision to be made," said fund attorney Jared Leland.

...

"Undoubtedly, the pledge contains a religious phrase, and it is demeaning to persons of any faith to assert that the words 'under God' contain no religious significance," Judge Karen Williams wrote for the 4th Circuit. "The inclusion of those two words, however, does not alter the nature of the pledge as a patriotic activity."

Karlton, appointed to the Sacramento bench in 1979 by President Carter, wrote that the case concerned "the ongoing struggle as to the role of religion in the civil life of this nation" and added that his opinion "will satisfy no one involved in that debate."

Karlton dismissed claims that the 1954 Congressional legislation inserting the words "under God" was unconstitutional. If his ruling stands, he reasoned that the school children and their parents in the case would not be harmed by the phrase because they would no longer have to recite it at school.

"All it has to do is put the pledge as it was before, and say that we are one nation, indivisible, instead of dividing us on religious basis," Newdow said.

...

Complete article can be seen here:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/09/14/pl....ap/index.html

Other information:

There have been two previous versions of the Pledge of Allegiance before the recent one adding the phrase "Under God".

Between 1892 and 1923 it read:
I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

Between 1923 and 1954 it read:
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

From 1954 up to today it reads:
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

To put my opinion simply, there is a difference between topics made overly religious by the media (example being abortion) and complete intolerance towards other people of different religions. Some places in the United States, it is mandatory to say the Pledge of Allegiance, that alone violating the First Amendment’s statements on religion.

If me memory serves me correctly, the phrase "under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance to help fight against the 'godless communist' ideals. I don't even see why religious organizations are standing up to this, not only does our government guarantee this right, but believe it or not my church, the Roman Catholic Church, teaches tolerance as well. Either way I look at it, its' wrong to have the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.

And, just to add in information from our judicial system:

Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1, 15-16 (1947):

"...The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion..."

Note: Full reading of this can be seen here .

[Lights]

You know, even though I am Agnostic, when I first heard about this way-back-when, I thought it was some kind of joke. I figured it was just some fool wanting to disrupt everything and make a name for himself. I never really thought anybody had been "harmed" by the phrase (I still don't, but.. beside the point. ), but this one quote I read earlier today, and you have above, stood out to me:

"Imagine every morning if the teachers had the children stand up, place their hands over their hearts, and say, 'We are one nation that denies God exists,"' Newdow said

He has a point. A very good point, I must say.


So, to make this brief, I believe it should be taken back out. It was just an added phrase and isn't needed. It may not truly 'harm' anyone either way, but if we want to be fair in this country, it should be removed. Practice what we preach.

[N[U]TS]

here is the reason why they changed it. got it off the net wikipedia


In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference called for the words my Flag to be changed to the Flag of the United States of America. The reason given was to ensure that immigrants knew to which flag reference was being made. The United States Congress officially recognized the Pledge on June 22, 1942.

In 1954, after a campaign initiated by the Roman Catholic Knights of Columbus, Senator Homer Ferguson of Michigan sponsored a bill to amend the pledge to include the words under God, to distinguish the U.S. from the officially atheist Soviet Union, and to remove the appearance of flag and nation worship. The phrase "nation, under God" previously appeared in Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, and echoes the Declaration of Independence. On June 8, 1954, Congress adopted this change.


I dont see it as hurting anyone. Further more you are not required to recite it. Just stand at attention and hold your right hand over your heart.

[Angelicpower]

This is absolutely insane..there are people who don't want to have children because of this kind of thing..the world has gone madd is turning to the evil side..this country was started with the idea of God in it..no matter what religion..one nation under God...whatever God you praise and worship! :hbut

[Bret]

This is kind of old news, but the ruling is new. Honestly, its sickening. America was borne of Christians and I'm getting pretty ****ing sick of bending over for a bunch of people who only promote defilement of the body (drugs, promiscuous sex,...) and the mind.
Every ethnic group has a God, so what does saying "One nation under God.." have to do with freedoms? The only ones who don't believe in God are now trying to bring everyone else down to hell with them.
This is a war (between good and evil). Just because the "enemy" doesn't look like Orcs, or doesn't look like the monsters from Diablo (Some of them even look better than some of the good people in the world) doesn't mean they aren't just as bad with the same evil content of doestorying people and things. God is love and nothing but, and what poor soul wouldn't want that in their lives? Non believers are the weakest people I've ever met. Its very difficult to believe in something no one can prove with science. Its not a matter of is it there though you can't see it, its a matter of its there and its all around us.

I'll be showing my pride and faith on my T-shirts (I'm not going to go over bored) and if someone can't stand the sight of it, then they are truly infested to the core. Do I believe in possesion. Yes, absolutly. I see it all the time....

[Angelicpower]

Originally Posted by Cappy

This is kind of old news, but the ruling is new. Honestly, its sickening. America was borne of Christians and I'm getting pretty ****ing sick of bending over for a bunch of people who only promote defilement of the body (drugs, promiscuous sex,...) and the mind.
Every ethnic group has a God, so what does saying "One nation under God.." have to do with freedoms? The only ones who don't believe in God are now trying to bring everyone else down to hell with them.
This is a war (between good and evil). Just because the "enemy" doesn't look like Orcs, or doesn't look like the monsters from Diablo (Some of them even look better than some of the good people in the world) doesn't mean they aren't just as bad with the same evil content of doestorying people and things. God is love and nothing but, and what poor soul wouldn't want that in their lives? Non believers are the weakest people I've ever met. Its very difficult to believe in something no one can prove with science. Its not a matter of is it there though you can't see it, its a matter of its there and its all around us.

I'll be showing my pride and faith on my T-shirts (I'm not going to go over bored) and if someone can't stand the sight of it, then they are truly infested to the core. Do I believe in possesion. Yes, absolutly. I see it all the time....

Cappy...you said it!! Right on...I high 5 you all the way!! I am disgusted with the world we live in..it is getting putrid! What about our freedoms and rights...isn't that one of the reasons they wanted to come here, for religious freedoms as well? correct me please if that is not one of the reasons..the government is corrupt and possessed with evils of mankind..they no longer truely believe in freedoms of all..and whoever said you don't have to recite is correct..with your hand on your heart say your own little pledge/prayer to your own god!

[_Ace]

Originally Posted by Cappy

This is kind of old news, but the ruling is new. Honestly, its sickening. America was borne of Christians and I'm getting pretty ****ing sick of bending over for a bunch of people who only promote defilement of the body (drugs, promiscuous sex,...) and the mind.
Every ethnic group has a God, so what does saying "One nation under God.." have to do with freedoms? The only ones who don't believe in God are now trying to bring everyone else down to hell with them.
This is a war (between good and evil). Just because the "enemy" doesn't look like Orcs, or doesn't look like the monsters from Diablo (Some of them even look better than some of the good people in the world) doesn't mean they aren't just as bad with the same evil content of doestorying people and things. God is love and nothing but, and what poor soul wouldn't want that in their lives? Non believers are the weakest people I've ever met. Its very difficult to believe in something no one can prove with science. Its not a matter of is it there though you can't see it, its a matter of its there and its all around us.

I'll be showing my pride and faith on my T-shirts (I'm not going to go over bored) and if someone can't stand the sight of it, then they are truly infested to the core. Do I believe in possesion. Yes, absolutly. I see it all the time....

Sh*t!!! Christian extremists are gonna suicide-attack my house!

Come on, atheists want to bring everyone to hell? WTF? I'm atheist, and no, I'm not weak, it's the other ****ing way around... People who need to believe in something to find a meaning to their existance ARE weak, not people who don't need stupid bullshit that lacks sense everywhere.

And no, not every ethnic group worships a god. And by saying "under God" you refer to the christian god (see the capitalized G?). Oh, one more thing: It doesn't harm anyone? Well... let's see... Every kid that goes to school sees stupid crosses with some guy on drugs hanging on them (Jesus) and has to hear (if not recite) this patriotic thing... If a 5-year-old hears it everyday, or at least, every week, what are the chances he ends up believing blindlessly in a God and say stupid things in a forum like Cappy? The answer is: 99.9%.

And before you all start bitching, I was born in a catholic family, I even did my 1st communion or whatever, and yes, after that I realized by my own means that believing in a God and worshiping a religion (when you go to church, when you recognize priests authority, when the President of your country declares that his faith is extremely strong and when some other government guy defends creationism you know that you aren't worshiping a god, but all the shit that his "existance" has caused) is unnecessary and stupid.

[SouLess]

It's rediculous. Honestly, every religion has a godfigure out there, why do they need to change it. I mean, I personally don't care, because I never said the Pledge as is. I always thought it a waste of a minute. But when someone changes something that I've heard more than ANYTHING in my life, it's kinda tweaks me out.

[jd-inflames]

This has always been an issue I've been sort of thoughtfull about.

If you want to look at it in views as being 'unconstitutional', it breaks from 2 ammendments really. Freedom of religion (which as been stated, is iffy from that one) and seperation from church and state (which it is REALLY hitting).

Now, the school systems have been trying to make ammends by taking out the 10 commandments off of the walls. Personally, NONE of this bothers me. The only thing that bothers me is when they tell me I can't wear my pentagram or when I ask them to put up a pentagram on the walls next to the crosses, I get shunned because they consider it satanic. For one thing, it's not satanic. For two, even if it WERE, it should still be treated just as equally as the cross.

[Angelicpower]

Originally Posted by jd-inflames

This has always been an issue I've been sort of thoughtfull about.

If you want to look at it in views as being 'unconstitutional', it breaks from 2 ammendments really. Freedom of religion (which as been stated, is iffy from that one) and seperation from church and state (which it is REALLY hitting).

Now, the school systems have been trying to make ammends by taking out the 10 commandments off of the walls. Personally, NONE of this bothers me. The only thing that bothers me is when they tell me I can't wear my pentagram or when I ask them to put up a pentagram on the walls next to the crosses, I get shunned because they consider it satanic. For one thing, it's not satanic. For two, even if it WERE, it should still be treated just as equally as the cross.

Then what exactly does your pentagram stand for? I have always known it to be related to the satanic religion..we aren't going to put buddahs and things of that sort up either...but to take down the ten commandments is ridicules because even if it hadn't come from the Bible those are some very good things to go by..don't you think?? Killing isn't cool..neither is disobeying your parents..cheating on your spouse is terrible...all the commandments are good..what shall they be replaced with?? Nothing? Just dead space or fill the space with something that has no meaning at all? I say we leave it as the country has always known it..I am so sick of sue sue sue and oh oh my freedoms, it is killing me..the commandments are good for all! Even the satanic ones!! As I said before..just throw your hand up there and say a silent chant to your own god..is it killing anyone? NO!
Well..not always known it..but as I said before that is one of the reasons they came here anyway, freedom of religion..right? Not the only reason but one reason with many others.

[Roach Of Discord]

If you want to put in your own 'little chant' in the pledge..great. However, the pledge itself shouldn't contain the words 'under god' in it...so that everyone is told to say it..because 'that's how it is'. Would you like it if it were to say 'under satan'? Rofl, no..no you wouldn't. Since it says 'under god'..and you're religious, you're opinion is bias and overshadowed to how it should really be (from your comments I get this). It doesn't harm anyone..however, as JD pointed out, it definitely violates the constitution. If you want to say 'under god'...excellent..do it...however, that isn't the way it should *officially* be.

[Tipsy]

Originally Posted by Angelicpower

This is absolutely insane..there are people who don't want to have children because of this kind of thing..the world has gone madd is turning to the evil side..

Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is nothing short of a profession of faith. For quite a long time, saying the pledge was doing nothing more than pledging to indivisibility, liberty, and justice. Since 1954 though, we have been pledging to the existence of God, as in monotheism being the solid truth in a country that has made clear it is unconstitutional to pass “laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another.” As Lights specifically said impacted him, would you be impacted if everyday your children went to school and recited a pledge saying that God does not exist? If you don’t want that you happen look at how leaving it in would oppress the religious freedom of nonbelievers.

I mean the guy who is fighting for this removed might be an atheist extremist, but that in no way makes him wrong.

Originally Posted by AngelicPower

this country was started with the idea of God in it..no matter what religion..one nation under God...whatever God you praise and worship! :hbut

I’d like to see either one of you show me that your point is more valid than the others. My personal belief is that people who do not believe in God are confused, but I am just as willing to respect a person of one of those godless religions to tell me right back that I am the one confused because I believe in God. Either way, I fail to see how believing or not believing in God automatically makes you weaker, or a better person, or so forth.

Originally Posted by _Ace

And no, not every ethnic group worships a god. And by saying "under God" you refer to the christian god (see the capitalized G?).

Actually the word God can be applied to any of the Abrahamic religions, but regardless of whether it is aiding one religion or one hundred, it is still unconstitutional.

Originally Posted by _Ace

and when some other government guy defends creationism you know that you aren't worshiping a god, but all the shit that his "existance" has caused) is unnecessary and stupid

Just to point it out, creationism is taught against by the Catholic Church. Not sire if you were referring to a Catholic guy, but just throwing that out there.

Originally Posted by AngelicPower

Well..not always known it..but as I said before that is one of the reasons they came here anyway, freedom of religion..right? Not the only reason but one reason with many others.

Yes, freedom of religion. Such as large group of Roman Catholics who went to settle in Maryland so that they would not be oppressed by other forms of Christianity, specifically the Church of England. Everyone deserves freedom the practice their religion whether they are Roman Catholics as in the example, any other group of theists, or atheists.

Originally Posted by AngelicPower

Then what exactly does your pentagram stand for? I have always known it to be related to the satanic religion..we aren't going to put buddahs and things of that sort up either...but to take down the ten commandments is ridicules because even if it hadn't come from the Bible those are some very good things to go by..don't you think??

It doesn’t matter if the Bible, the Ten Commandments, or other religious teachings are good or not, my problem is that it shouldn’t oppress people’s right to freedom of religion. Freedom of religion gives Christians the right to not be oppressed just as much as it applies to godless people.

Originally Posted by AngelicPower

Killing isn't cool..neither is disobeying your parents..cheating on your spouse is terrible...all the commandments are good..what shall they be replaced with?? Nothing? Just dead space or fill the space with something that has no meaning at all? I say we leave it as the country has always known it..I am so sick of sue sue sue and oh oh my freedoms, it is killing me..the commandments are good for all! Even the satanic ones!! As I said before..just throw your hand up there and say a silent chant to your own god..is it killing anyone? NO!

Perhaps they could be replaced with secular laws that protect against murder, such as the ones that are already in place? And regardless of if I think it is moral or not to cheat on a spouse, how does it give anyone the right to infringe on that person’s rights by forcing them not to? Secular marriage is nothing more than a contract on paper. It has no deeper meaning, in my opinion, other than an economic relationship. A teacher should have the right to put a satanic thing on the wall if they put a crucifix or a copy of the Ten Commandments on the wall. However, either of these options is not something that should be pushed onto minds easily taken advantage of in schools. In front of a public institution or something, I have no problem with any religious symbol of any religion being placed there.

Religion in the public’s eye needs to be balanced. The big issues as I stated above such as abortion are more human rights issues than trying to oppress someone with religion. The line between oppressing people with godless beliefs are being oppressed because some schools do punish people for not reciting the pledge. However, this must also be a line drawn to not oppress the free exercise of religion. In this case, I still believe that the phrase “under God” should be taken out not only because of my religious beliefs of tolerance, but the fact that people are guaranteed the right to not have a religious belief forced upon them.

Ironically the person who wrote the original version of the Pledge of Allegiance was a member of the clergy and felt absolutely no need to throw in the phrase “under God”.

[Angelicpower]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a list of good morals mounted at the entrance of a court house or school..so what is wrong with the ten commandments? that list of rules, which some of our laws are based off of, was written well before our laws..evil has crept into this world and taken over with a swiftness! These are final days I do believe! Why are people putting up such a fuss now? EVIL! This world has slowly been demoralised and I find it very sad! The day will come when all those who fought against a list of great orders for us to abide by will suffer like they have never suffered before..they think they are suffering now because the ten commandments are posted somewhere or because God is mentioned in a pledge..ha just wait, worse days are ahead for those lost souls!

[jd-inflames]

Originally Posted by AngelicPower

Then what exactly does your pentagram stand for? I have always known it to be related to the satanic religion..we aren't going to put buddahs and things of that sort up either...but to take down the ten commandments is ridicules

This is exactly what I was getting at. Why not put up buddist things on the wall if you are going to put up things that glorify the christian/catholic beliefs? It's all in equality. Buddists have religious standings of good morality as well, same as any religion.

And the pentagram is a pagan symbol, not a satanic one.

[Angelicpower]

Originally Posted by jd-inflames

This is exactly what I was getting at. Why not put up buddist things on the wall if you are going to put up things that glorify the christian/catholic beliefs? It's all in equality. Buddists have religious standings of good morality as well, same as any religion.

And the pentagram is a pagan symbol, not a satanic one.

Actually..to be honest I have never ever seen a cross or pic of
Jesus in a school or government building..the ten commandments yeah and God in the pledge..but never any pics or crosses.

[Tipsy]

Originally Posted by Angelicpower

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a list of good morals mounted at the entrance of a court house or school..so what is wrong with the ten commandments? that list of rules, which some of our laws are based off of, was written well before our laws..evil has crept into this world and taken over with a swiftness! These are final days I do believe! Why are people putting up such a fuss now? EVIL! This world has slowly been demoralised and I find it very sad! The day will come when all those who fought against a list of great orders for us to abide by will suffer like they have never suffered before..they think they are suffering now because the ten commandments are posted somewhere or because God is mentioned in a pledge..ha just wait, worse days are ahead for those lost souls!

I did not say there was something wrong with placing quotes from Bible. However, with this said, it is only right to allow any other religion, to post it. The government does have no right to deem any moral belief right or wrong, it can only deem if the belief in practice infringes or does not infringe on the rights of another. To use an extreme example, there was a guy who created an actual recognized religion based on Nazism and the government is restricting their religious activities by not allowing them to infringe on the rights of others by killing followers of Judaism. This is a completely different topic from the pledge though.

The Pledge of Allegiance does exactly what the name suggests. We are pledging ourselves to indivisibility, justice, liberty, and the existence of God. This is mandatory in some schools in the United States, and plus having this official pledge of our government suggest that in one way or another monotheism is more important, better, etc, than other polytheistic religions or godless religions.

My problem with putting religious symbols in public schools is that young minds are easily manipulated. In my opinion I think everyone should be a Christain. However, forcing someone to believe in my God is doing the exact opposite of the tolerance my God has asked me and the other followers of his religion to do. My belief on how people should find religion is also different. It is not something that should be forced upon you. Probably the biggest revelation of my life was finding God a few years ago. It has effected me deeply, and find God is something you need to do on your own.

Then of course there is also Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1, 15-16 (1947) which happens to agree with me by stating:

"...The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion..."

I also find it hard to believe that you are attacking the position of not forcing religion upon people. In this case, it seems you feel Christianity should be forced upon people because you believe it is right. Let's say it is right for a minute, which I do believe, though many other forum goers may disagree with, Jesus taught tolerance. How can you expect to be doing what is right when you are going against the teachings of the savior of the human race said?

[Forged]

I personally feel there should be no pledge. I find the fact we require our children to stand each day and recite a loyalty oath sickening. A third grader is not a military grunt why is he required to say the Pledge of Allegiance? We strive to destinquish ourselves from the militaristic all powerful goverments we so frequentlly villinazie and yet we do some of the same things they do...

[Tupac Amaru Shakur]

This is ridiculous, sorry if my response has already been said but if youdont like the under God statement then just dont say that part. The pledge is no better or worse and has the same meaning whether or not you say Under God. I say it, to me it means something but someone else can say it and it can mean nothing.

[jd-inflames]

Originally Posted by Tupac Shakur

This is ridiculous, sorry if my response has already been said but if youdont like the under God statement then just dont say that part. The pledge is no better or worse and has the same meaning whether or not you say Under God. I say it, to me it means something but someone else can say it and it can mean nothing.

I was suspended for a week when I was in 3rd grade for refusing to say that part of the pledge.

Evidentally they can count that as defiance.

[Angelicpower]

Originally Posted by Forged

I personally feel there should be no pledge. I find the fact we require our children to stand each day and recite a loyalty oath sickening. A third grader is not a military grunt why is he required to say the Pledge of Allegiance? We strive to destinquish ourselves from the militaristic all powerful goverments we so frequentlly villinazie and yet we do some of the same things they do...

Excellent point..I am not hip with the government anyways..lol..I could agree to just screw the pledge off..but if we have to keep it I say we keep God in the pledge..I have went round and round with my mother and her husband about kids being forced to say the pledge before they even know what the words mean..they are not being given a option to decide if they even agree with this country..5 year old chanting something they know nothing about does seem a bit like brainwashing.