I Pledge Allegiance...

[Roach Of Discord]

Originally Posted by thebastardsword

too bad? isnt that the governments current descision?

At the moment, yes that's how it is. .

Just don't say that part..bleep the God part out..say one nation under bleep.

If that's the case, should is be there? You still skip my questions.

Also..I guess the nation wasn't 'under god' until about 50 years or so, when these two little words were added. Was that really needed? If the nation was 'under god'..wouldn't that mean that their was really no freedom of religion? This entire thing may be silly...and you're right, if you don't like it don't say it (unless it's removed)..but you do seem pretty damn one sided and stubborn on this issue. As you say, if we don't like it...don't say it..okay... but what if it were removed? Couldn't you just as easily add whatever word you want? Which is more logical...to say that the whole nation is 'under god' when it truly isn't...or just take that part out and leave it up to the individual? You also say that I skip people's responses? Uhh..you've never answered my question..or said anything about my comment on the 'seperation between church and state'. In reality, it's an obvious violation of the constitution..like it or not.

Here's a question for you, do you also believe that organized prayer in public schools is fine? You say that if you're against the pledge, you must also be against money...but forcing these words into the pledge (which happens to be a representation of our country as a whole), and having organized prayer in school...really....happen to be quite similar..except for the fact that one happens to be outlawed. If you agree with one, you must agree with the other, right? Essentially it's the same concept. Religion mixing in with state.

Also...for clarity, in the past..I've never really cared about those words. I always chose not to say the pledge all together, ever.

[Carrot Man]

Originally Posted by RoaCh Of DisCord

At the moment, yes that's how it is. .



If that's the case, should is be there? You still skip my questions.

Also..I guess the nation wasn't 'under god' until about 50 years or so, when these two little words were added. Was that really needed? If the nation was 'under god'..wouldn't that mean that their was really no freedom of religion? This entire thing may be silly...and you're right, if you don't like it don't say it (unless it's removed)..but you do seem pretty damn one sided and stubborn on this issue. As you say, if we don't like it...don't say it..okay... but what if it were removed? Couldn't you just as easily add whatever word you want? Which is more logical...to say that the whole nation is 'under god' when it truly isn't...or just take that part out and leave it up to the individual? You also say that I skip people's responses? Uhh..you've never answered my question..or said anything about my comment on the 'seperation between church and state'. In reality, it's an obvious violation of the constitution..like it or not.

Here's a question for you, do you also believe that organized prayer in public schools is fine? You say that if you're against the pledge, you must also be against money...but forcing these words into the pledge (which happens to be a representation of our country as a whole), and having organized prayer in school...really....happen to be quite similar..except for the fact that one happens to be outlawed. If you agree with one, you must agree with the other, right? Essentially it's the same concept. Religion mixing in with state.

Also...for clarity, in the past..I've never really cared about those words. I always chose not to say the pledge all together, ever.

gogo team america! ur gonna get shanked for wanting to get rid of the god in the pledge you dirty, treasonous, bastard....

why is this an argument? is it really worth spending the money, the time, and other resources to try and change a few words out of something that americans only see in schools and public buildings? couldnt more money be spent on education instead of the ethics of god being in the pledge of allegiance.

[Roach Of Discord]

Originally Posted by thebastardsword

couldnt more money be spent on education instead of the ethics of god being in the pledge of allegiance.

No. Controversial debates are always much more fun! :wavey

[Tipsy]

Originally Posted by thebastardsword

why is this an argument? is it really worth spending the money, the time, and other resources to try and change a few words out of something that americans only see in schools and public buildings? couldnt more money be spent on education instead of the ethics of god being in the pledge of allegiance.

Honestly, to me this isn't a passionate issue, and I'm pretty indifferent to what the outcome is, even though I do believe the law mandates that it should be removed. But look at it from the other angle. As was brought up earlier, what if everyday we stood up and say "We are one nation that denies God exists". If that were the case, I would fight until I was forcibly silenced to remove it from the Pledge of Allegiance. I can only think of how much some people who are passionate against the existence of God feel about this.

[Carrot Man]

Originally Posted by RoaCh Of DisCord

No. Controversial debates are always much more fun! :wavey

if you tried having a controversial debate on communism (in the usa)way back in the 50's, what would happen to you?

[Zerglite]

Originally Posted by thebastardsword

if you tried having a controversial debate on communism (in the usa)way back in the 50's, what would happen to you?

you'd get other people to talk about how much they hated commies

[Angelicpower]

Originally Posted by RoaCh Of DisCord

At the moment, yes that's how it is. .



If that's the case, should is be there? You still skip my questions.

Also..I guess the nation wasn't 'under god' until about 50 years or so, when these two little words were added. Was that really needed? If the nation was 'under god'..wouldn't that mean that their was really no freedom of religion? This entire thing may be silly...and you're right, if you don't like it don't say it (unless it's removed)..but you do seem pretty damn one sided and stubborn on this issue. As you say, if we don't like it...don't say it..okay... but what if it were removed? Couldn't you just as easily add whatever word you want? Which is more logical...to say that the whole nation is 'under god' when it truly isn't...or just take that part out and leave it up to the individual? You also say that I skip people's responses? Uhh..you've never answered my question..or said anything about my comment on the 'seperation between church and state'. In reality, it's an obvious violation of the constitution..like it or not.

Here's a question for you, do you also believe that organized prayer in public schools is fine? You say that if you're against the pledge, you must also be against money...but forcing these words into the pledge (which happens to be a representation of our country as a whole), and having organized prayer in school...really....happen to be quite similar..except for the fact that one happens to be outlawed. If you agree with one, you must agree with the other, right? Essentially it's the same concept. Religion mixing in with state.

Also...for clarity, in the past..I've never really cared about those words. I always chose not to say the pledge all together, ever.

Seperation from church and state meant they do not control churches, this is schools and state actually, no church involved or particular religion...I am not one sided..as I stated before, which you seem to only focus on certain parts, I had to prepare my kids for the one sided of it all ~ science teaching the big bang theory for instance..read all the posts roach..it is give and take..as bastard pointed out the hand on the Bible has been taken out of courts..this is why I say the ones fussing are God-haters..they do not want to give and take..prayer in schools is a seperate thing..prayer is church but I don't see the harm if a teacher gets a note signed by each parent for prayer..those parents that say no, send the kids to lunch a couple of minutes earlier..take out darwin teaching if we can't have God in the pledge..it offends me and my family..God created all! Money is a huge representaion of all countries! Come on we put presidents and leaders on monies of the world!! You are forced to spend money that the people who created it had a belief and trust in God...why aren't people ashamed of that? The pledge is not a religious hymn or prayer from a church! The bigger one that represents the country is the national anthem..not the pledge anyway. The olympics do the anthems..not the pledges!

[Zerglite]

Originally Posted by Angelicpower

I am not one sided..as I stated before, which you seem to only focus on certain parts, I had to prepare my kids for the one sided of it all ~ science teaching the big bang theory for instance..read all the posts roach..it is give and take..as bastard pointed out the hand on the Bible has been taken out of courts..this is why I say the ones fussing are God-haters..they do not want to give and take..prayer in schools is a seperate thing..prayer is church but I don't see the harm if a teacher gets a note signed by each parent for prayer..those parents that say no, send the kids to lunch a couple of minutes earlier..take out darwin teaching if we can't have God in the pledge..it offends me and my family..God created all! Money is a huge representaion of all countries! Come on we put presidents and leaders on monies of the world!! You are forced to spend money that the people who created it had a belief and trust in God...why aren't people ashamed of that? The pledge is not a religious hymn or prayer from a church! The bigger one that represents the country is the national anthem..not the pledge anyway. The olympics do the anthems..not the pledges!

Essentially, you do not support other religions. You despise them and this government for trying to make this country least biased as possible.

Also, you cannot prove god created SHIT, or even if he exists.

Ex. "theres billions of people believing in god"
theres billions who dont, hun.

Seperation from church and state meant they do not control churches, this is schools and state actually, no church involved or particular religion.

Actually saying the word God refers to religion, seperation of CHURCH AND STATE means niether shall mix, at all.

[Angelicpower]

Originally Posted by Zerglite

Essentially, you do not support other religions. You despise them and this government for trying to make this country least biased as possible.

Also, you cannot prove god created SHIT, or even if he exists.

Ex. "theres billions of people believing in god"
theres billions who dont, hun.

Actually saying the word God refers to religion, seperation of CHURCH AND STATE means niether shall mix, at all.

I do not believe in any particular religion..I don't believe it was meant to be split up like that anyway..no one sees that people who believe in a God has already given up things..the prayer in school..hand on the Bible in courts..ten commandements coming down..the schools teach children who believe in a God that created all that there was this huge bang and wowy surprise ~ life came from it on this planet and you will be tested on this! Why can't non believers handle a word? Must they have things only their way..shows how evil it is..can't even compromise!

[Zerglite]

Originally Posted by Angelicpower

I do not believe in any particular religion..I don't believe it was meant to be split up like that anyway..no one sees that people who believe in a God has already given up things..the prayer in school..hand on the Bible in courts..ten commandements coming down..the schools teach children who believe in a God that created all that there was this huge bang and wowy surprise ~ life came from it on this planet and you will be tested on this! Why can't non believers handle a word? Must they have things only their way..shows how evil it is..can't even compromise!

ITS MEANT TO KEEP IT EQUAL. IF I WAS ATHEIST AND DIDNT BELIVE IN ANY PARTICULAR GOD, WHY SHOULD I BE FORCED TO HONOR HIM.

[Roach Of Discord]

Originally Posted by Angelicpower

I do not believe in any particular religion..I don't believe it was meant to be split up like that anyway..no one sees that people who believe in a God has already given up things..the prayer in school..hand on the Bible in courts..ten commandements coming down..the schools teach children who believe in a God that created all that there was this huge bang and wowy surprise ~ life came from it on this planet and you will be tested on this! Why can't non believers handle a word? Must they have things only their way..shows how evil it is..can't even compromise!

It's not about 'having it our way'. Tippy, who is quite religious..understands the problem of it. He is open minded about the issue...and religious. Hawt. To tell you the truth..it's you who is not willing to compromise. Having it included..is like saying 'that's how it is". The nation is under god? Some schools make people say this. It's like saying..that we should all believe this..or do. It's not about that though, as much as it's unconstitutional. A compromise, in my opinion...would be taking out the words 'under god' .. and allowing people to believe whatever the hell they want to believe...without forcing them to say/think otherwise.

As was brought up earlier, what if everyday we stood up and say "We are one nation that denies God exists". If that were the case, I would fight until I was forcibly silenced to remove it from the Pledge of Allegiance. I can only think of how much some people who are passionate against the existence of God feel about this.

This is the truth of the matter...and how most people feel who are speaking out against it. Angelic, I'd still like you to answer this question above. You have to think for both sides of the people, not just yourself.

Originally Posted by Zerglite

ITS MEANT TO KEEP IT EQUAL. IF I WAS ATHEIST AND DIDNT BELIVE IN ANY PARTICULAR GOD, WHY SHOULD I BE FORCED TO HONOR HIM.

indeed. Just as christians shouldn't have to say 'one nation that denies god'.

[Angelicpower]

Bahá'ís believe in a single God who has repeatedly sent prophets into the world through whom he has revealed the "Word of God." Prophets include Adam, Krishna, Buddha, Yeshua of Nazareth (Jesus), Mohammed, The Bab and Baha'u'llah.Encyclopædia Britannica Online estimates that they had about 7.4 million members worldwide in mid-2002:

1.8 million in Africa
3.6 million in Asia
0.13 million in Europe
0.91 in Latin America
0.81 in Northern America
0.12 in Oceania. 1

About 75% of American adults identify themselves as Christian and only 0.5% view themselves as Buddhist.Concepts and practices include:

Dana - thoughtful, ceremonial giving
Sila - accepting Buddhist teaching and following it in practice; refraining from killing, stealing, wrong behavior, use of drugs. On special days, three additional precepts may be added, restricting adornment, entertainment and comfort.
Karma - the balance of accumulated sin and merit, which will determine one's future in the present life, and the nature of the next life to come.
The Cosmos - consists of billions of worlds grouped into clusters; clusters are grouped into galaxies, which are themselves grouped into super-galaxies. The universe also has many levels: four underworlds and 21 heavenly realms.
Paritta - ritual chanting.
Worship - of relics of a Buddha, of items made by a Buddha, or of other symbolic relics.
Festivals - days of the full moon, and three other days during the lunar cycle are celebrated. There is a new year's festival, and celebrations tied to the agricultural year.
Pilgrimages - particularly to Buddhist sites in Sri Lanka and India

81% of American adults identify themselves with a specific religion: 76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian. This is a major slide from 86.2% in 1990. Identification with Christianity has suffered a loss of 9.7 percentage points in 11 years -- about 0.9 percentage points per year. This decline is identical to that observed in Canada between 1981 and 2001. If this trend continues, then by about the year 2042, non-Christians will outnumber the Christians in the U.S. 52% of Americans identified themselves as Protestant.
24.5% are Roman Catholic.

1.3% are Jewish.
0.5% are Muslim, followers of Islam.
The fastest growing religion (in terms of percentage) is Wicca -- a Neopagan religion that is sometimes referred to as Witchcraft. Numbers of adherents went from 8,000 in 1990 to 134,000 in 2001. Their numbers of adherents are doubling about every 30 months. 4,5 Wiccans in Australia have a very similar growth pattern, from fewer than 2,000 in 1996 to 9,000 in 2001. 10 In Canada, Wiccans and other Neopagans showed the greatest percentage growth of any faith group. They totaled 21,080 members in 1991, an increase of 281% when compared with 1990.

14.1% do not follow any organized religion. This is an unusually rapid increase -- almost a doubling -- from only 8% in 1990. There are more Americans who say they are not affiliated with any organized religion than there are Episcopalians, Methodists, and Lutherans taken together.
The unaffiliated vary from a low of 3% in North Dakota to 25% in Washington State. "The six states with the highest percentage of people saying they have no religion are all Western states, with the exception of Vermont at 22%." Believers in a God still outnumber those that have no belief in a God.

[Forged]

So majority wins eh? Sorry, that is not how this country works when it comes to civil rights...

[Angelicpower]

Originally Posted by Forged

So majority wins eh? Sorry, that is not how this country works when it comes to civil rights...

No, roach here thinks majority should win and he claims that majority do not believe in a God..I am pointing how wrong he is concerning how many people have a belief and how many don't! Read all the posts people...Lord help them! As far as civil rights go...the people had something to do with women and blacks being able to vote and being treated equal to a white man!

[TheJanitor]

14.1% do not follow any organized religion. This is an unusually rapid increase -- almost a doubling -- from only 8% in 1990.

Get with the times, atheism is growing they added the words 'under god' recently even back then they had the sense not to include them .

This is the truth of the matter...and how most people feel who are speaking out against it. Angelic, I'd still like you to answer this question above. You have to think for both sides of the people, not just yourself.

Angelic power didn't realise this, he wasn't saying the majority of people were atheists. It doesn't matter if it is or not, Tispy a Christian has spoke out against it, and the majority of people posting here are against it, he said nothing about religion.

[Roach Of Discord]

Originally Posted by Angelicpower

No, roach here thinks majority should win and he claims that majority do not believe in a God..I am pointing how wrong he is concerning how many people have a belief and how many don't! Read all the posts people...Lord help them! As far as civil rights go...the people had something to do with women and blacks being able to vote and being treated equal to a white man!

What the hell are you talking about? When did I ever say that the majority of people don't believe in god? That would obviously be wrong...and also totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Originally Posted by Thejanitor

Get with the times, atheism is growing they added the words 'under god' recently even back then they had the sense not to include them . Angelic power didn't realise this, he wasn't saying the majority of people were atheists. It doesn't matter if it is or not, Tispy a Christian has spoke out against it, and the majority of people posting here are against it, he said nothing about religion.

Err yes..what he said.

[Angelicpower]

Originally Posted by RoaCh Of DisCord

What the hell are you talking about? When did I ever say that the majority of people don't believe in god? That would obviously be wrong...and also totally irrelevant to the discussion.



Err yes..what he said.

The point is, everyone has the freedom of religion. We can be Christians, Budhists, Satanists, Pagans..whatever. Why would we have a pledge that is supposably intended to be something that represents the nation as a whole...say that we are a nation under god. Especially since many people in this lovely country don't even believe in 'god'...or any god for that matter. Should that really be included in the pledge? If you say yes..once again...refer to my first statement. It's fine because you believe in god, right? Also, what happened to the 'seperation of church and state' law? Where did that go? It's only in affect when the government wants it to be? Odd. Saying 'under god' doesn't hurt anyone...yet it's a matter of principle.
__________________







Razorblade smile and this cut throat devotion
Disdain for these lies with my blood it is spoken

Soul...catch...fire

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Last edited by RoaCh Of DisCord : Yesterday at 08:22 PM




Those religions you used as examples up there all have their own God that they worship..using that phrase in a pledge is not stating that you are any particular religion..it is not going to church..it is not praying..that is how I see it and why I think it is silly for people to use 'seperation of church and state'..they say God because most people do believe in some God and yes to seperate us from ussr but not saying we under the same God, just showing that our land allows religions. People are seeing this all topsy turvey wrong! It doesn't represent our nation...every nation has a pledge..not some thing that represents their land to others...the national anthems represents our lands..as I stated before that is what the olympics play, the national anthems of lands not their pledges.

[Roach Of Discord]

Those religions you used as examples up there all have their own God that they worship..using that phrase in a pledge is not stating that you are any particular religion..it is not going to church..it is not praying..that is how I see it and why I think it is silly for people to use 'seperation of church and state'..they say God because most people do believe in some God and yes to seperate us from ussr but not saying we under the same God, just showing that our land allows religions.

Uhh..once again, majority has nothing to do with this. That is totally irrelevant. It's about equality...despite the numbers and statistics of who believes in a god or not.

[Angelicpower]

Originally Posted by RoaCh Of DisCord

Uhh..once again, majority has nothing to do with this. That is totally irrelevant. It's about equality...despite the numbers and statistics of who believes in a god or not.

LMAO..omg..you are something else...you broght up the majority..get your head on straight...YOU BROUGHT UP MAJORITY FROM GET GO!

[Roach Of Discord]

Originally Posted by Angelicpower

LMAO..omg..you are something else...you broght up the majority..get your head on straight...YOU BROUGHT UP MAJORITY FROM GET GO!

Do I really have to spell it out for you?

The only thing I've ever said about majority...was this:

Originally Posted by roach

This is the truth of the matter...and how most people feel who are speaking out against it. Angelic, I'd still like you to answer this question above. You have to think for both sides of the people, not just yourself.

This was in reply to tipsy's comment. I was relating to what he said. Check this out..it's amazing:

This is the truth of the matter...and how most people feel who are speaking out against it.

Let me explain. I meant this as in...the majority of the people who do speak out against these words in the pledge, and try to get them removed do this because they feel the same way that tipsy does about the issue. In reference to his example. Do you not read? It has nothing to do with the world being filled *god-haters*. It was in reference to this:

As was brought up earlier, what if everyday we stood up and say "We are one nation that denies God exists". If that were the case, I would fight until I was forcibly silenced to remove it from the Pledge of Allegiance. I can only think of how much some people who are passionate against the existence of God feel about this.

Read. Damn. :butterfly